Topic: synthetic oils?

[89 toy]

around when it's time to change my oil again(3500 on the new motor) i'm thinking about going with amsoil 10w40 or 15w40.  i'm running delo 400 15w40 and it's great stuff.  no leaks, except from the damned half moon gasket

dont use this in a gas motor the only gas truck we had at work we used this stuff in it because we use it in the power strokes and the motor blew up the rings siezed to the piston and the mechanc who put the new motor in said it was because of the oil it is for diesels only it has differend aditives for the diesels and has lower api standards

[guywithuglyyota]

I ran 10-40 amsoil and i did have an oil consumption problem in my 81. Good advice.

[Huhwhye]

Before switching its a good idea to do a cleaning on the motor.  Amsoil makes a flush for this.  A better but more expensive choice is AutoRX.

go to http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php
you'll learn everything you want to know about oil and more.

I'm new to this oil stuff, been doing it for about a year now.  The learning curve is steep once you find a good source for info.  I send my used oil out for analysis now to monitor how my vehicles and the oil are doing.  It's spendy but kinda facinating.

[blackdiamond]

Updated info shown in RED.

Which Synthetic Oils are API Base Group III & IV?  I have contacted several of the oil companies directly, via email, to answer this question and will update this thread as I get information.  I am also trying to get a good explaination of the difference between group III vs. group IV oils.

"Royal Purple uses Group IV Base Oils."  David Canitz, Tech Services Manager (Royal Purple Ltd), dcanitz@royalpurple.com 

"The AMSOIL XL7500 series oils use the group 3 base stocks. All the other 4 cycle oils use group 4."  Jim Van, AMSOIL Technical Services 

"Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, the synthetic base stock we use is a combination of group 4 and group 5 stocks."  Dave from Red Line Oil

Mobile 1 responed and said they are fully synthetic so I have requested specific clarification, I am nearly positive that they are group 4   

Castrol has responded with the claim of 100% synthetic base oil; however, based on the Mobil 1 vs. Castrol court case it can be assumed that they are group 3.  I have requested clarification.

Valvoline said that they have base oils that are build up (group 4?) from small atoms and others that are broken down and modified (group 3).  I have also asked for clarification from them.

Valvoline Synpower, Pennzoil Synthetic & Castrol Syntec are compared to AMSoil XL 7500 leading one to conclude that they are all Group 3 oils.
http://www.thebestsyntheticoil.com/xl_7500_1.htm

AMSoil (Group 4 not API certified) also has a comparison with Mobil 1 which are Group 4.  AMSoil created the XL 7500 series to obtain the API certification at a reasonable cost.  Mobil 1 Group 4 products are API certified per their website, a point for them.

API Base Group III & IV seems like it should be a simple question to answer, I tend to be skeptical of companies that can't, or are not willing, to provide specific product information.

Clarification of API Base Group 3 vs. Group 4

From Royal Purple:
"Group III oils are mineral oils refined from crude that have received more processing.  They are still mineral oils with contamination that is not
bothered to be refined out.  Group IV oils are man made hydrocarbons that have no contamination and are all uniform in molecular size, resulting in less internal friction and no contamination.  Contamination is what causes oils to break down, be it fuel, dirt, or water.  So if you're starting with an oil that already has contamination products still in it due to lack of refining, it will not work as well as a synthetic version."

From AMSOIL:
"Group 3 basestocks are derived from highly refined petroleum crude. They are heads and shoulders above conventional petroleum oils and because of their molecular can be legally classified as synthetic. Class 4 and 5 basestocks however, are made from laboratory made chemicals."


Here is a good link for a synthetic oil education

http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/synthetic_oil_article/index.html

The article provides some information directly from synthetic manufactures (Redline, Amsoil, Syntec, etc) but they don't all agree on everything.  It explains how and why synthetic oil got a negative reputation and how it is different now.  It also provides some reasons why auto manufacturers still recommend 3,000 miles changes (My synopsis: Due to warranty concerns manufactures like to have the opportunity to periodically inspect the cars).  The bottom line is that synthetic oils are always superior to petroleum oils; however, under normal driving conditions the difference may not be noticeable.  Synthetics maintain their chemical properties at much more extreme temperatures (above 400 degrees and below -30 degrees), but how often are then conditions seen?  Using them can be beneficial if an engine failure is experience.  If a motor overheats, for example, a synthetic oil will provide better protection.  Is it possible that some of the differing opinions on drain interval are a result of the difference between Group III and Group IV synthetics?

[Huhwhye]

The article provides some information directly from synthetic manufactures (Redline, Amsoil, Syntec, etc) but they don't all agree on everything.  It explains how and why synthetic oil got a negative reputation and how it is different now.  It also provides some reasons why auto manufacturers still recommend 3,000 miles changes (My synopsis: Due to warranty concerns manufactures like to have the opportunity to periodically inspect the cars).  The bottom line is that synthetic oils are always superior to petroleum oils; however, under normal driving conditions the difference may not be noticeable.  Synthetics maintain their chemical properties at much more extreme temperatures (above 400 degrees and below -30 degrees), but how often are then conditions seen?  Using them can be beneficial if an engine failure is experience.  If a motor overheats, for example, a synthetic oil will provide better protection.  Is it possible that some of the differing opinions on drain interval are a result of the difference between Group III and Group IV synthetics?

Great Post BTW.

But "dealers wanting to inspect their cars" I don't believe.  I'd call your dealer and ask them what oil they use for changes.  You'll find the dealer is using bulk oil in big drums and it may or may not meet the specs required for you vehicle.  Remember all they care about is getting you past the warranty and making $$$.  Toyota Dealer around here uses 10W-30 Castrol, nothing wrong with that but Toyota reccomends 5W-30 for all temps and their new cars  and a 5w generally will give you better start up protection and since that's when the majority of engine wear happens why not use a 5w then?  the answer is COST, they save a by using a 10w instead of a 5w.  They buy from suppliers just like any other mechanic would. Recently Volkswagen dealers got in hot water for not using VW spec oil , which is a 40 wt, in their 1.8T motors.  They were having some serious engine problems and some failures because of it.  Don't assume your dealer knows best.  Their a business just like anyone else.




There is a lot of confusion and in my research I learn new stuff all the time.

[FATB0Y]

Well I'm Now Using Mobil1 and K&N and have no complants the coldstart knock@high RPM is gone (in the toy not the bike) 

[blackdiamond]

A short summary that is not intended to claim anything about the quality of different brand oils.

AMSoil - Group 4 Synthetic (Not API certified)
AMSoil - Group 3 Synthetic XL7500 Series (API certified)

Mobil1 - Group 4 Synthetic (API certified) - now offering a product for 15,000 miles

Royal Purple - Group 4 Synthetic (API certified)

Redline - Group 5 (unknown in API cerfitied) - Poyol Ester Base Stocks vs. PAO (Group 4), Tri-Synthetic synthetic contains PEs as well.

Castrol - Group 3 Synthetic(API certified)

Pennzoil - Group 3 Synthetic (API certified)

Valvoline - Group 3 Synthetic (API certified)

In my opinion, all the the Group 4 synthetics are fairly equivalent...I personally don't know enough to be convinced in any one direction.  I find it interesting that AMSoil compares to Mobil 1 on their website but not Redline or Royal Purple, also strange that they are not API certified (I wouldn't use it in a vehicle still under warranty).  For me Mobil 1 is the easiest to get locally, so it is my choice for my Tundra.  I am thinking Valvoline or Mobil 1 high mileage for the 85, synthetic doesn't stay within the boudaries of my motor when I tried the Castrol Syntec (Group 3) is became a fountain.