Author Topic: 1983 4x4 IFS Truck project, ditch the solid axle!  (Read 32957 times)

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R.DesJardin

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1983 4x4 IFS Truck project, ditch the solid axle!
« on: Oct 16, 2013, 04:12:01 PM »
Well this will probably take me years to get all together and it isn't as if I don't have other projects that need done too.
So for now it's just a General dreaming post.
I plan on trying to drop a Supra front diff in the front of my '82, so not really long travel but something more than what I have now. Custom A arms and all the mounts. Plan is to make a unique diff mount that will also have all the a arm mounts in it. Stuffing this baby up close to the RZ pan which will give me more clearance at ride height than the solid axle pumpkin does. But hey plans can change and who knows how this will end up, yes crazy, and yes crazy, did I already say that?

« Last Edit: Feb 02, 2014, 09:27:43 AM by R.DesJardin »
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toyotech

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something like this?
http://blazeland.us/cmdiff/

R.DesJardin [OP]

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LOL, Kinda but better. Ha ha. Didn't know he was doing that. I don't want to use stock a arms and I want the mounts to have more ground clearance. So longer a arms that pivot closer to the CV, no tube steel frame below the diff. some creative use of gusseted sheet/plate instead.
« Last Edit: Oct 17, 2013, 07:50:04 AM by R.DesJardin »
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Nimyad

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Why not just link it?

R.DesJardin [OP]

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Why not just link it?

More ground clearance to the diff. and I wan the lower a arms to have more trail clearance. All theory until it's built.
But I am looking at a linked rear using trailing arms for the lowers. Unless I do IRS! Bwaaaahaaaahaaaa
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Nimyad

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More ground clearance to the diff. and I wan the lower a arms to have more trail clearance. All theory until it's built.
But I am looking at a linked rear using trailing arms for the lowers. Unless I do IRS! Bwaaaahaaaahaaaa

Man, you crazy! Haha

Snowtoy

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Are you going to convert the SA frame to IFS, or are you going to start with an IFS frame? 

Have you wheeled IFS before?  The higher ground clearance for the diff may not be worth the loss of articulation, or the added cost in replacing steering components when wheeling tires bigger than 33's in the rocks.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

R.DesJardin [OP]

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Are you going to convert the SA frame to IFS, or are you going to start with an IFS frame? 

Have you wheeled IFS before?  The higher ground clearance for the diff may not be worth the loss of articulation, or the added cost in replacing steering components when wheeling tires bigger than 33's in the rocks.

Glad you brought all this up.
Yep wanna do a nifty front cross member/IFS mount/diff bracket unit to weld onto my '83 frame. I don't like the factory mounts geometry. Oh yes I've wheel the crap out of a IFS truck back in the 80's, kinda funny you talk of articulation with a name like Snowtoy. LOL
Not a DD so component wear isn't a factor and I'm still not buying into the "forklift articulation ravings". Basically it will be built for PNW snow but for the Midwest short rutty hills it should work good for until I get back home to focus on the snow runs. Considering a Rack and Pinion steering setup too but not sold on it.
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toyotech

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the link i posted is with a center mount diff and modified stock arms to be 3+ inches longer each side. basically a center mount with long travel arms
not trying to stop you. i wheel my long travel IFS for a few years now.
mounting point for the arms closer to the diff wont necessarily give you more ground clearance

R.DesJardin [OP]

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True but I wasn't going to go to extreme with the close to the diff, just close to aligned with the inner CV pivot. Also who ever said I was making straight a arms.  :greengrin:
Also look at the advantage of getting your steering up out of the way and protected.
Basic design is similar to the picture with a center mount diff, beyond that is my twisted out of the box ideas. Debate and feedback is always good.
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Rocksurfer

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I've probably wheeled the most IFS's on this board and all I have is one word..... WHY!
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This is what I imagined when this post was posted.



But I'm with RS on this.  The only real gain I see with this setup over stock IFS, is eliminating the center short shaft on the drivers side. 

Miss ya Dean (4THEWKN) & Kyle (KYOTA)!!

4THEWKN~9/17/2006  If it wasn't for you, I'd be driving something other than a Toyota!

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Rocksurfer

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For me I can deal with an IFS rig if it is what I have, but I would never go from a straight axle to IFS, just doesn't make sense. Of course if you are planning on making a go-fast desert racer then yeah go IFS but still you don't convert to IFS with all the IFS rigs out there.
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R.DesJardin [OP]

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For me I can deal with an IFS rig if it is what I have, but I would never go from a straight axle to IFS, just doesn't make sense. Of course if you are planning on making a go-fast desert racer then yeah go IFS but still you don't convert to IFS with all the IFS rigs out there.

If you had a rooty, rocky trail would you think IFS would work better? If I was crawling huge boulders then maybe links and solid axles but in the 30's years of wheelin I still haven't seen a huge benefit to a solid front axle. No I don't, haven't or probably never wheel in the Southwest. My first 4x4 was a bought new and tricked out 1982 Dodge Ram 50, it would spank any other mini truck of the day in the desert and stay with the Jeeps my buddies all had when in the mountains. The wheelin hasn't changed. All the good ole' days.................
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Well, whatever you do, keep us in the loop with alot of pictures.   :thumbs:



Miss ya Dean (4THEWKN) & Kyle (KYOTA)!!

4THEWKN~9/17/2006  If it wasn't for you, I'd be driving something other than a Toyota!

My build up ~ project Kilchis! http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32961.0
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R.DesJardin [OP]

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My thoughts on this.
I think I can get more overall ground clearance with IFS, definitely more to the diff at ride height for sure. This will help with any wheelin I've done.
IFS handles better at most speeds over a crawl.
Big Flex especially overflex is a fad and 90% of us don't need it. I think the  Ultra4 cars have this figured out. But this is an opinion and can't be argued so let's leave it alone. I drive Toyotas, Dodges and I like guns, can't argue any of this it's who I am.
Flexy rigs are tippy, I like hills and bumps.
Not looking for more travel that the solid axle setup I have has, I'm running RUFs and have plenty of travel.
Centered diff.
CAD images will follow as I continue.
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Rocksurfer

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If you had a rooty, rocky trail would you think IFS would work better? If I was crawling huge boulders then maybe links and solid axles but in the 30's years of wheelin I still haven't seen a huge benefit to a solid front axle. No I don't, haven't or probably never wheel in the Southwest. My first 4x4 was a bought new and tricked out 1982 Dodge Ram 50, it would spank any other mini truck of the day in the desert and stay with the Jeeps my buddies all had when in the mountains. The wheelin hasn't changed. All the good ole' days.................

I can cite a few advantages: strength of the axles, better articulation, stronger suspension, less moving parts in the suspension, clearance stays the same at all times as the suspension travels up, just for starts. I'm not saying IFS doesn't work well, I have wheeled them to the extreme and they do very good. I'm just saying the benefits of a straight axle far exceed those of an IFS in most cases. I've done more 3 wheelin' in IFS rigs than I can remember, actually I can remember. :gap:   
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toyotech

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i think a IFS rig jumping 10 feet up in the air and landing without damage makes them pretty strong.  he is not install a stock IFS parts, he is building it. 
i dont see to many SA rigs jumping at the dunes when i go to pismo. 

Rocksurfer

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I guess you've never seen an IFS rig twist the frame due to the forces that bottoming out causes? A stock straight axle truck does not have the added sections that an IFS rig has to try to prevent the twisting action that is caused by this leverage. Sure you can add cross members to attempt to prevent it from happening but then the suspension mounts will also need additional beef to keep from being ripped off the frame. So in order to really do it right the cost of building an IFS rig far exceeds building a straight axle and the straight axle will still have the edge on travel and body roll. As always the terrain is always a factor on which will work better in a certain situation, if you find that an IFS rig works better in you area then go for it. Even Humvee's/Hummer's tend to run around on three wheels offroad more than a stock straight axle rig, been there done that for sure including the H1 and H3. So do these pictures show that I can squeeze out as much travel that an IFS in mostly the stock configuration? In some of the other shots it shows how very little is also needed to have the same rig lift a tire and not even hit down on the bumpstops on the fronts. It is a mixed bag on an IFS.
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Rocksurfer

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I also understand that he is not going with the stock configuration and doing a custom front and I say to that he needs to talk with Cal Wells and more recently Robbie Gordon when they went IFS and gave them a try.
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toyotech

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your going to fast if your bottoming out while rock crawler or that your suspension is way to soft. 
IFS has its disadvantages but the challenges it has on the trails makes it much funner experience.

i really like to see what R.DesJardin comes up with.

Rocksurfer

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A Little soft is about the only way to get a torsion bar suspension to actually travel, too stiff and life on three wheels comes real fast. I was more referring to jumping an IFS and bottoming out which will twist the frame at the front suspension mounts. The main reason I bring it up is that an 1982 frame does not have the same strength on the front section of the frame as an IFS rig, and he should take this into consideration when working with that frame. As the suspension travels and at times bottoms out it will try to pull on the bottom side of the frame twisting it out from the bottom. This happens all the time with IFS Toyota frames when people don't brace the front and back of the frame at the suspension mounts.
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R.DesJardin [OP]

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All good points to be brought up. Of course I'll be adding a IFS mount/crossmember unit it's part of the design. Definitely no torsion bars for me.
Too many comparisons get made with stock IFS and flexy SAS suspensions. Question is why does everyone do 63's and RUF, or links? Stock sucks so they say. The question I don't hear ask much is why are many of the Ultra 4 cars running IFS? Seems like they need both flex and stability, just like most of us, well at least that's what I want to have from a suspension.
Oh, yeah, I like designing and building too, go figure.
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toyotech

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Don't wanna flood your page with my crap to show that IFs works and that my mild LT build has been great. 3 wheeling isht a problem when locked. I gotten over some big rocks on 3 wheels. I was gonna say ultra 4 has started going more IFS now and I do see it as the future of wheeling.

Leaf to links and now its ifs turn to rule haha

R.DesJardin [OP]

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Don't wanna flood your page with my crap to show that IFs works and that my mild LT build has been great. 3 wheeling isht a problem when locked. I gotten over some big rocks on 3 wheels. I was gonna say ultra 4 has started going more IFS now and I do see it as the future of wheeling.

Leaf to links and now its ifs turn to rule haha

Preaching to the choir. The input is fine. You have  a link to your build and IFS mods?
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There was a company that made a bracket that went between the rear lower a-arm mount.  Like a extra cross member for the front end. 

I too, and waiting to see what comes out from this. 
Miss ya Dean (4THEWKN) & Kyle (KYOTA)!!

4THEWKN~9/17/2006  If it wasn't for you, I'd be driving something other than a Toyota!

My build up ~ project Kilchis! http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32961.0
Zak's truck build ~ http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=64319.0;topicseen

emsvitil

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There was a company that made a bracket that went between the rear lower a-arm mount.  Like a extra cross member for the front end. 
 


I think that was Downey




I too, and waiting to see what comes out from this. 

 
Me too
 
 :beer:
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Rocksurfer

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I think the funny thing about this is that I'm one of the 1st around here to defend IFS wheeling and here I am knocking it. To be honest I would wheel an IFS rig just as I would a Straight axle if it is what I have and wouldn't consider a SAS swap. You can wheel an IFS just as hard as a straight axle the only thing I do different is the line taken, I pick my own line and it usually is not the same as when I'm in a straight axle.
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Rockcrawlintoy

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All good points to be brought up. Of course I'll be adding a IFS mount/crossmember unit it's part of the design. Definitely no torsion bars for me.
Too many comparisons get made with stock IFS and flexy SAS suspensions. Question is why does everyone do 63's and RUF, or links? Stock sucks so they say. The question I don't hear ask much is why are many of the Ultra 4 cars running IFS? Seems like they need both flex and stability, just like most of us, well at least that's what I want to have from a suspension.
Oh, yeah, I like designing and building too, go figure.

most ultra 4 cars are running 15-20k dollar IFS setups and it is still a compromise.
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R.DesJardin [OP]

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most ultra 4 cars are running 15-20k dollar IFS setups and it is still a compromise.

And is has to hold up to the HP and torque form those Bowtie motors and mega sticky tires. So you're saying an solid axle is a compromise too?   :confused:
2RZ, LCE cams, header, auto, do I need to send 15K+ to build a front diff to hold up??????????
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