Topic: seeking all tunning gurus, I need some help.

[kauaikid]

My situation is I've got a 84 toyota longbed with what I assume is a lot of weight.  ex. longbed + camper + dual cases + winch and front bumper + 210 LB  driver + wife and kid + fishing gear(coolers, poles, lead, water and misc). I'm running an LC engineering top end kit which consists of a head w/ oversized valves, mild cam, header, lc pro distributor w/vacuum advance and a zuks offroad cis mechanical fuel injection.  I'm lacking top end in the sense that I can't climb grades even in 4th, usually I gotta drop to 3rd and do 45 max even without my fishing gear.  I'm running 35" bfg's and 5.29 gearing and I've got excellent compression and have a 2/1/4 header + full exhaust.

Where I need help, is that I've never felt I've succeeded in tuning my vehicles(i've always felt my lack of tuning skills has been holding back my rig).  I am looking for advice in the sense of my timing.   What I have tried so far is I've run 4 degrees tdc with a louder sounding exhaust(not advanced enough) with just okay power, I have tried 7-9 degrees tdc with moderate power and a softer exhaust sound, I've tried 12-14 degrees which are lc engineerings recommendations with a miss when I shift from 1st to second and second to third(it's like it stalls for a second), and I've tried 16+ degrees which runs good but I notice very strong fuel fumes in my garage(even at 12+ degrees).

Oh ya at 4-6 degrees tdc I'm getting a max of 37 degrees.

1) I'm looking at this as if I should be starting with my timing before getting into the lean rich part of the tuning, is this correct? 

2) Does it sound like I'm off a tooth with my distributor if it doesn't miss when I advance my timing past 16+ degrees but it does at 12 degrees?

3) I've tried both tuning by timing light and performance but I want peace of mind as well as knowing that my motor is performing at it's best, am I asking for too much?

Sorry for the length but I figured better thorough than vague.
Thanks!

[jimbo74]

thats a lot of weight for a truck that has 100 hp... maybe about 115 with your mods....

[kauaikid [OP]]

I'm not always weighted down that much as it is my daily driver.  Are you thinking it's a lost cause   . Perhaps I'm hoping for something that is unrealistic. I'm open to all suggestions, especially those that may get me to where I need to be tuning wise.  

What I forgot to mention is that I do have friends that claim to have no problems making those hills with stock toyotas of the same year. I know I got a lot more to consider, but I figured with the motor mods and gearing it should compensate for the difference.

[jimbo74]

advance it till it pings, then back off, not much more you can do after that
the 22r is a reliable, pretty solid motor, not a racecar, at least not without a lot more mods

[86rustbucket]

i do 45 in 3rd up steep hills, im carb 4.10's and 33's im used to it

[emsvitil]

i do 45 in 3rd up steep hills, im carb 4.10's and 33's im used to it

Is speedo correct?

For steep hills I go 75 in 3rd at 4800 rpm, 22re, 4.10's, 31's

45 would be 2nd 4300 rpm; 3rd 2800 rpm

[TacoRunner]

What you are discribing is a lack of torque. Not hp. torque is the hardest thing to produce on a 4 banger. You can try the following, but I would suggest a rebuild and a stroker kit or a motor swap.

Port and polish

Cam

Cam Gear

Electric Fan



If you've never dynoed your truck tunning gets hard.

How many miles on your truck? You should do a compression check.

[kauaikid [OP]]

I can advance it as far as I can and I don't get any pinging it just seems to run richer by the smell it makes.  And when I mention my situation to other toyota owners around here they don't seem to have the same problem on their near stock toyotas which made me think I may be out of tune.  I figured the engine mods would make up for the added weight and tire size(35's 5.29 gearing). I'll keep working on the timing but like I said I've advanced it easily to 20 at idle and a +50 of total without pinging.  

Should I run it this advanced and lean it out?

[kauaikid [OP]]

My block has 70k on it and the head is ported and polished plus a mild cam.  I do have the stock fan and a/c which I don't turn on in these situations because I can feel it rob power.  When tuning do you guys start with timing and then go to adjusting fuel/air mixtures? How much advance is to much?  Could you get the miss at a lower timing say 12 degrees and not at 16?

[TacoRunner]

Do a compression check. Then check your air to fuel ratio. Im thinking 13:1 is were you should be.

[kauaikid [OP]]

I did a compression check and I'm all +150 in every cylinder.  I'll check on the air fuel ratio.  Thanks

[79coyotefrg]

What you are discribing is a lack of torque. Not hp. torque is the hardest thing to produce on a 4 banger. You can try the following, but I would suggest a rebuild and a stroker kit or a motor swap.

Port and polish

Cam

Cam Gear

Electric Fan



If you've never dynoed your truck tunning gets hard.

How many miles on your truck? You should do a compression check.

if you read the OP you would see he has all those things

I did a compression check and I'm all +150 in every cylinder.  I'll check on the air fuel ratio.  Thanks

first start with basics, also is this efi or carb??

roll the crank around and put the timing mark right on 0*  then pull the distributor cap, if its not DEAD ON the number 1 point on the cap, you need to pull the valve cover so you can see what your doing when you stab the distributor again


what cam are you running??   give me specs, is it a LC cam??

[kauaikid [OP]]

I'm running a cis mechanical fuel injection or the k-jetronics system off of older german cars.  I have the lc engineering cam that you recommended to me a few years ago, I thinks it's their pro efi cam, it's pretty mild.  I am gonna work on it today so I'll go and set the crank at the 0 mark and do as you said.

What do you think about the miss at a 10-12 degrees and then it going away at 16+?

Thanks, I was hoping you'd get in on this.

[79coyotefrg]

thats a lot of weight for a truck that has 100 hp... maybe about 115 with your mods....

according to "Desktop dyno 2000" my engine has 185 hp at the flywheel, 

back a few months ago i hauled a trailer (about 1200 pounds),  my full size spare, a hilift and 20 ton bottle jack, full toolbox, and my personal luggage (big duffil bag and medicine bag)  from my house up into northwest Arkansas and on into missouri,  this consisted of one LONG hillclimb, about 15 miles with grades of up to 6%,. and my truck held 65 MPH on that hill climb where i passed bigrigs, and one particular full size ford F250 with a 16 foot trailer and a hay rake, that i kept passing on the hills and he would pass me on the flats

[79coyotefrg]

i remember recommending the efi pro .440 lift, and its NOT a mild cam,  for LC Engineering its one of their milder cams but  much more cam than 90% of the people here are running


pull the valve cover off and put the crank timing mark on 0* and tell me where the cam timing mark is,  it sounds like your a tooth off

[79coyotefrg]

gotta run to town but i'll be back later

[brainlessfool]

20 deg. advanced and no pinging? you must be rich as hell. blowing black smoke out the tail pipe?

I've got 10.5:1 C/R and at 5 degs. I ping up hills.

how are you checking timimg?

[jimbo74]

glen, he is running an aftermarket efi system, mentioned it in his first post

http://www.zuksoffroad.net/toyota_engine.htm

[kauaikid [OP]]

I'm checking my timing with a standard light that dials in for the max timing.  I may be running rich because I do smell it, however it's not rich enough to create any black smoke.  The only time I get any black smoke is after I've been crawling for 15-20 minutes and I get to an area where I can rev it and then I do notice black smoke.  I don't get any pinging whatsoever even when it's advanced 16+ which would put my max timing at 55+.  I guess that's why i'm looking for help with this. 

Hey Glen, I just set my pulley to the 0* mark and checked my distributor and it was directly on the #1 contact.  I also pulled the valve cover and the cam dowel is exactly at 12 o'clock.

I'm in the garage now working on this and I got my computer next to me so any feedback would help.  Thanks guys!

[79coyotefrg]

glen, he is running an aftermarket efi system, mentioned it in his first post

http://www.zuksoffroad.net/toyota_engine.htm

i hope its tune able

[79coyotefrg]

ok, max timing should be no more than 35* MAX,  thats initial + vacuum + centrifugal

[kauaikid [OP]]

me too . What do you think Glen?  Now that I know the distributor and cam were correct is it just a matter of finding the correct correlation between my air/fuel ratio and my timing?  

[kauaikid [OP]]

with my timing set at 7* at idle(1000rpm) my max was 37*.  LC specs say 12-14* at idle.  If this is correct then should I be running a 4-5* timing at idle?  Oh ya I also have LC's pro distributor if that changes things.

[79coyotefrg]

lets set the dist at 10* and then put a white cup (stirofoam or paper) just a few inches from the end of your exhaust, you can have someone hold it there (and their breath) then with the engine warmed up a little  floor it and then let it idle back down,  i want to know what the inside of the cup looks like

[kauaikid [OP]]

I'll bolt the valve cover on now and get right back to you.  Thanks

[79coyotefrg]

me too . What do you think Glen?  Now that I know the distributor and cam were correct is it just a matter of finding the correct correlation between my air/fuel ratio and my timing?

yep

with my timing set at 7* at idle(1000rpm) my max was 37*.  LC specs say 12-14* at idle.  If this is correct then should I be running a 4-5* timing at idle?  Oh ya I also have LC's pro distributor if that changes things.

idle it down to 750 -800 rpm

yes it does, the LC pro dist is basically a 22R distributor with a 20R reluctor and a tighter centrifugal advance spring

[brainlessfool]

you've got to be way rich.

[79coyotefrg]

800, rpm and 8- 10 *

[kauaikid [OP]]

Okay I set it at 10* warmed it up and had someone rev the motor while I held a white towel over the tail pipe.  There is hardly any carbon on the towel at all.  The carbon circle consists of a very light gray ring and the center is practically clean.

I do notice while throttling it when I have the timing light on it it almost retards back to 0* before advancing.  It also bogs a bit when I rev it but not always.  Any ideas?

I'll try to set the rpm's down to 800 and readjust the timing and let you know.  Give me a minute or two.  Thanks

[79coyotefrg]