Topic: Mormons.....

[COToy91]

No chill pill needed.. Im not fired up.. But I respond in that way, because many people actually think that way.

wasn't sure, just making sure. I still have yet to meet anyone who can read emotion over the net lol

[blackdiamond]

Black Diamond..  we need to stick to false teachings of the mormon church right now.. not the ones of the SDA denomination

I just went back and read this..  I cant believe I missed this statement.. "...but can't provide a compelling argument from the Bible".
You have to be kidding me... someone do a search.. we have already talked about this.. sheesh... Just because you dont like it doesnt mean the evidence isnt there... wow.

Ironically, I would say the same thing (just because you think it is doesn't make it true and the majority is often wrong  ) which is why we don't discuss it anymore, it's pointless at this point.  I'll say it one more time...The Catholic church claims the change from Saturday to Sunday as their own and they did it prior to any other denomination being formed.  Most of the organized denominations branched off over time because they disagreed with one or more of the Catholic beliefs, but nobody seemed to disagree with the change of the Sabbath.  It was taken for granted.  The early members of the SDA church were actually all Sunday believers from various denominations that joined together to study the Bible.

The reason I brought the subject up again is because the Mormons keep Sunday in a similar way to Adventist's which indicated a belief in the 4th Commandment.  I don't think the "do no work" part of the Commandment is found anywhere else?

[COToy91 [OP]]

I have been gone for a few days so I have some catching up to do...

Look at Hebrews Chapter 7 - Its confirms Christ as the only high priest after the order of Melchezidek... specially verse 24: it says he has an unchangeable priesthood.. look up the word unchangeable in the greek.. it actually means untransferable, and inviolate.. meaning no one else can have it.. if you want me to explain this more let me know..

Greek definition??

Last i checked the bible was written in Latin, but was originally written in ancient Hebrew and also a hybrid Egyptian/Hebrew writing

[COToy91 [OP]]

Baptism for the dead is just plain nutty...  there is no scripture reference for this, and the one that mormons think works, is totally taken out of context... want me to expound on this too... sheesh!!!!!!!

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5)

Even Jesus Christ Himself was baptized--- 
(Matthew 3:13–17).

13-Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14-But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15-And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16-And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17-And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29)

The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God - So did Jairus's daughter, the widow's son, Lazarus. (John 5:25)

 1 Peter 4:6 For to this end was the gospel preached - Ever since it was given to Adam. To them that are now dead - In their several generations. That they might be judged - That though they were judged. In the flesh according to the manner of men - With rash, unrighteous judgment. They might live according to the will and word of God, in the Spirit; the soul renewed after his image.

[Hammerhead]

It is apparent that if God rewards everyone according to the deeds done in the body, the term heaven as intended for man's eternal home must include more kingdoms than one.  In speaking of man in his resurrected state, Paul tells of glories like the sun, the moon, and the stars (1 Cor. 15:39-41).  He also speaks of the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2).  Jesus spoke of "many mansions" or kingdoms (John 14:2).  Latter day revelation confirms the teaching of the Bible on these matters and verifies that there are three general categories or glories to which the members of the human family will be assigned in the judgement following their resurection from the grave.  These are known as Celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms of which the sun, moon, and stars are spoken of as being typical.  (D&C 76; 88: 20-32; 131:1-4).  In addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin.

[Hammerhead]

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 


1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

[COToy91 [OP]]

amen

[blackdiamond]

Greek definition??

Last i checked the bible was written in Latin, but was originally written in ancient Hebrew and also a hybrid Egyptian/Hebrew writing

Check again, the OT was Hebrew and the NT was Greek.  Most Seminaries teach  Greek and Hebrew for a reason.

As for baptism for the dead, how do you explain the thief on the cross?  There is no indication that he had been baptized and Jesus promised him eternal life unconditionally.  He didn't say that as soon as a "good" Mormon, that wouldn't exist for thousands of years, baptized him he could move up to a higher level.

 

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

So anytime the Bible conflicts with a Mormon writing, the founders of your religion provided a "trump card" for the members.

[chim]

Ironically, I would say the same thing (just because you think it is doesn't make it true and the majority is often wrong  ) which is why we don't discuss it anymore, it's pointless at this point.  I'll say it one more time...The Catholic church claims the change from Saturday to Sunday as their own and they did it prior to any other denomination being formed.  Most of the organized denominations branched off over time because they disagreed with one or more of the Catholic beliefs, but nobody seemed to disagree with the change of the Sabbath.  It was taken for granted.  The early members of the SDA church were actually all Sunday believers from various denominations that joined together to study the Bible.

The reason I brought the subject up again is because the Mormons keep Sunday in a similar way to Adventist's which indicated a belief in the 4th Commandment.  I don't think the "do no work" part of the Commandment is found anywhere else?

Thats weird, because none of my explanations had anything to do with the catholic church?

[chim]

Greek definition??

Last i checked the bible was written in Latin, but was originally written in ancient Hebrew and also a hybrid Egyptian/Hebrew writing

Check again... old testament Hebrew, new testament greek/ aramaic.. or however its spelled.. latin was just a translation. Check a strongs concordance, or go to Blue Letter Bible.

[chim]

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5)

Even Jesus Christ Himself was baptized--- 
(Matthew 3:13–17).

13-Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14-But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15-And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16-And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17-And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29)

The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God - So did Jairus's daughter, the widow's son, Lazarus. (John 5:25)

 1 Peter 4:6 For to this end was the gospel preached - Ever since it was given to Adam. To them that are now dead - In their several generations. That they might be judged - That though they were judged. In the flesh according to the manner of men - With rash, unrighteous judgment. They might live according to the will and word of God, in the Spirit; the soul renewed after his image.

First item: all scripture you reference has to do with baptism... I think baptism is a form of obedience.. not required for salvation.. its a result of salvation. We can go more into this if you want, but lets stick to Baptism of the dead...

You quote Corinthians 15 as if it is saying is something that needs to be done... if you read the context the resurrection is whats being debated... he is saying why are you baptizing for the dead if you don't even believe in resurrection! He is not saying go out and start baptizing for the dead! This was something that people were doing for some reason or another...

If he said, why are you playing russian roulette, would you take that as a charge that you needed to start doing that practice as religion! Follow the logical conclusion and look at the context! Context, context, context! You are so trained to only look at a verse here and there!

[chim]

It is apparent that if God rewards everyone according to the deeds done in the body, the term heaven as intended for man's eternal home must include more kingdoms than one.  In speaking of man in his resurrected state, Paul tells of glories like the sun, the moon, and the stars (1 Cor. 15:39-41).  He also speaks of the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2).  Jesus spoke of "many mansions" or kingdoms (John 14:2).  Latter day revelation confirms the teaching of the Bible on these matters and verifies that there are three general categories or glories to which the members of the human family will be assigned in the judgement following their resurection from the grave.  These are known as Celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms of which the sun, moon, and stars are spoken of as being typical.  (D&C 76; 88: 20-32; 131:1-4).  In addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin.

People will receive crowns and different degrees of glory depending on how they lived this life as a christian. But the bible speaks only of one heaven... when you try and mention the 3rd heaven you need to know how that term was being used, and every bible scholar out there... besides mormon ones will agree that...
1. Our sky is the 1st heaven... you can find several references of this if you just look...
2. The space past our sky that we see is the 2nd heaven....
3. The area beyond our space/ solar system which no man can see is the 3rd heaven...

Follow it logically..

yes there are many mansions... why would the Lord try and cram us all into one in heaven! This also references the greatest and vast expanse of who God is, and what he can do..

As different as the Sun, moon and stars are.. so are we.. there are no two people alike, and we will be rewarded accordingly... but the cool thing is that once we are given our crowns of glory at the Bema seat judgement... we will all toss them because we have no right to wear them when we know what Christ has done for us...

You guys are soooooo caught up in yourselves and what you will get at the end, and the hope that you will possibly become gods.. when this is false.. its not about you... its about GOD!!

[chim]

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 


1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. yet you believe in multiple gods and that you will one day be one.. you believe that god was once as you are now.. a man.. you believe jesus had multiple wives, is the brother of lucifer, is a god, but not god in the flesh... I could go on and on... you use the same terminology as christians yet carrying different definitions that are not christian in any way!

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. yet you believe this atonement was in the garden and not on the cross...

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. You believe this is a formula for salvation when it is not according to the bible.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. I believe that God calls people, but making the laying on of hands a requirement is not essential, especially with a priesthood you cant possibly posses.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. Where are your pastors... why are your deacons 12 year old boys when its contrary to the bible? Where is the apostolic power that existed in the early church? Why is there a prophet when the bible says its been done away with?

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. You believe it to be the word of God until someone says something you dont agree with then it was translated incorrectly. yet you cant show where it has been incorrectly translated... and you fail to mention that the book of mormon has over 4000 changes, and not just because of punctuation and spelling!

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. You believe that you are the new Israel, which is called replacement theology which is false, and there is no evidence or scripture reference of the new jerusalem being here in america... as much as we like to think america is all that.. its not the focus of this world.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. Then seek after truth!

Joseph Smith

[Toymin8r]

Somewhere in the universe there are a bunch of alien scientists sitting around drinking space beer going,    "What went wrong"

[COToy91 [OP]]

First item: all scripture you reference has to do with baptism... I think baptism is a form of obedience.. not required for salvation.. its a result of salvation. We can go more into this if you want, but lets stick to Baptism of the dead...

Any specific reason you think it is not required? Why would the son of God walk that great distance to be baptized by John the Baptist? Why would he make sure it was a descendant of Aaron?

[chim]

Any specific reason you think it is not required? Why would the son of God walk that great distance to be baptized by John the Baptist? Why would he make sure it was a descendant of Aaron?

Here is the reasoning: If you study what it takes to be saved, and the examples of people being saved in the bible, you will find times when it says believe and be baptized, and then there are over twice as many times that is says just believe and be saved.. so if the formula were consistent then it would be assumed you would need both... two examples...  like blackdiamond mentioned.. the thief on the cross.. how could he be in heaven with Jesus that day if he didn't have a chance to get baptized... another example, Paul says in speaking "I'm glad I baptized non of you!" why would he say that if it were essential for salvation... that's like saying he is glad none of them were saved.. which is something Paul would never say.

Also.. what about the people that John baptized before Jesus... this was a different baptism.. does that mean they are not saved? Very inconsistent.. but when you really understand the reason for baptism then it makes sense.. it was the outward showing of an inward decision.. it is done out of obedience.. its symbolic.. there is nothing in it that actually cleanses you from sin.. if you thought that then you are believing the heresy that the catholics believe with infant baptisms.. its only Christs blood being shed on the cross that cleanses you from sin.

Also.. I dont understand what you are talking about with being a descendant of Aaron...

[chim]

Also... Jesus walked many great distances for many reasons!

[chim]

Any specific reason you think it is not required? Why would the son of God walk that great distance to be baptized by John the Baptist? Why would he make sure it was a descendant of Aaron?

oh wait.. now I understand why you mention Aaron... because now you will try and say that John had priesthood authority because of his father having the Levitical priesthood..

So let me point this out... John didn't take any levitical vows, he lived in the desert wearing a sacloth and eating locusts and honey... so you would be assuming he had priesthood which would put the burden of proof on you to show his priesthood when he obviously didnt follow that life path.

[blackdiamond]

Thats weird, because none of my explanations had anything to do with the catholic church?

This definately qualifies as off topic, but it's also interesting.

I don't remember if you're a member of any particular denomination so you may not know for sure either, but I would be willing to bet that none of the mainstream Christian churches that have published beliefs deal with Sunday being the day of worship.  This is because the Lord's Day was taken for granted during the reformation when various groups were splitting from the Catholic church.  The result is that people are defending Sunday as the day of worship because it is what they have always believed.  Very few have every questioned the belief and learned about the actual histroy.  The Roman Catholic changed the day and has stated that fact in more than one place.  The belief was "borrowed" during the reformation.  I wouldn't expect you to support your belief by referencing Catholic doctrine, but it is still where the belief originated and not from someone searching scripture and realizing that Sunday was the day.

Now I have to read your comments on the Mormon beliefs, you're "killing me" with the shotgun replies. 

[blackdiamond]

...  like blackdiamond mentioned.. the thief on the cross.. how could he be in heaven with Jesus that day if he didn't have a chance to get baptized... 

Be careful quoting me since I am a false teacher in your view. 

More importantly, please quote me correctly (I'm being a little picky here I realize).  I very specifically left out any reference to WHEN the thief would be in heaven with Jesus because I knew it would open another can of worms.  After His resurrection on Sunday, Jesus, himself, said that he had not yet ascended to His Father.  This means that he had not been to heaven and therefore could not have been in heaven with the thief on Friday.  Also, it wasn't uncommon for people that were crucified to remain alive for a period of time IF they were removed from the cross.  This is why their legs were broken, they didn't want them to be able to run away before they died.  There is a fair chance that the thief wouldn't have died on Friday unless someone killed him and the Bible only records his legs being broken (I think my memory is correct on this but I don't have the ability right now to verify).  Ironically, the three were removed from the cross just prior to the Sabbath, or sundown, and technically, Jesus' reference to "today" would have required the thief to die on Friday before sundown as that marks the beginning of another day (from evening until morning is the first day).  The translation is ok, but the punctuation, that is not part of the original language, is not correct in my belief.

[blackdiamond]

1. Our sky is the 1st heaven... you can find several references of this if you just look...
2. The space past our sky that we see is the 2nd heaven....
3. The area beyond our space/ solar system which no man can see is the 3rd heaven...

I'll agree with this.

I'll also refrain from providing my belief on the City of Jerusalem and who Israel refers to. 

[chim]

This definately qualifies as off topic, but it's also interesting.

I don't remember if you're a member of any particular denomination so you may not know for sure either, but I would be willing to bet that none of the mainstream Christian churches that have published beliefs deal with Sunday being the day of worship.  This is because the Lord's Day was taken for granted during the reformation when various groups were splitting from the Catholic church.  The result is that people are defending Sunday as the day of worship because it is what they have always believed.  Very few have every questioned the belief and learned about the actual histroy.  The Roman Catholic changed the day and has stated that fact in more than one place.  The belief was "borrowed" during the reformation.  I wouldn't expect you to support your belief by referencing Catholic doctrine, but it is still where the belief originated and not from someone searching scripture and realizing that Sunday was the day.

Now I have to read your comments on the Mormon beliefs, you're "killing me" with the shotgun replies. 

Im going to throw this out real quick like because I have explained this more than once to you and you choose to disregard it....

Colossians 2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Romans 14:5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Its not the day! Its the purpose of the day! But I know that you think by worshiping on Sunday is the mark of the beast, which is not scriptural at all... 

[chim]

Be careful quoting me since I am a false teacher in your view. 

More importantly, please quote me correctly (I'm being a little picky here I realize).  I very specifically left out any reference to WHEN the thief would be in heaven with Jesus because I knew it would open another can of worms.  After His resurrection on Sunday, Jesus, himself, said that he had not yet ascended to His Father.  This means that he had not been to heaven and therefore could not have been in heaven with the thief on Friday.  Also, it wasn't uncommon for people that were crucified to remain alive for a period of time IF they were removed from the cross.  This is why their legs were broken, they didn't want them to be able to run away before they died.  There is a fair chance that the thief wouldn't have died on Friday unless someone killed him and the Bible only records his legs being broken (I think my memory is correct on this but I don't have the ability right now to verify).  Ironically, the three were removed from the cross just prior to the Sabbath, or sundown, and technically, Jesus' reference to "today" would have required the thief to die on Friday before sundown as that marks the beginning of another day (from evening until morning is the first day).  The translation is ok, but the punctuation, that is not part of the original language, is not correct in my belief.

No one knows all that happened between Friday and sunday. So I dont like to assume... but it almost sounds like you are calling Jesus a liar?

They didn't break their legs so they couldn't run off! Thats the first time I have ever heard that... The reason they broke their legs was to make sure they died because those on the cross would push themselves up in order to get a breath... if they couldn't push themselves up because of broken legs then they would suffocate fairly quickly.. and they had to make sure they were going to be dead before the sabbath...  they didn't break the legs of Jesus because he was already dead... the just pierced him to confirm the death.

I dont call you a false teacher until you start throwing out the private doctrines of the SDA faith which are unbiblical.

[chim]

I'll agree with this.

I'll also refrain from providing my belief on the City of Jerusalem and who Israel refers to. 

Very quickly here...  I hope you arent implying that Israel is no longer referring to the jews and that somehow the SDA are the new Israel... because any type of replacement theology is false theology.

[COToy91 [OP]]

Very quickly here...  I hope you arent implying that Israel is no longer referring to the jews and that somehow the SDA are the new Israel... because any type of replacement theology is false theology.

I give you props Chim, you are strong in what you believe in. And will go to all lengths to prove any other wrong. So what if i was a Jew and only studied the laws of Moses and the old testament, would i go to hell because I am still waiting for a messiah?

My point is anyone can counter act what all others say to make it in line with what they believe. Like you stated above, some versus say get baptized others dont, so you could make an argument either way. It becomes a pissing match pretty much

[chim]

I give you props Chim, you are strong in what you believe in. And will go to all lengths to prove any other wrong. So what if i was a Jew and only studied the laws of Moses and the old testament, would i go to hell because I am still waiting for a messiah?

My point is anyone can counter act what all others say to make it in line with what they believe. Like you stated above, some versus say get baptized others dont, so you could make an argument either way. It becomes a pissing match pretty much

Its not that im trying to prove people wrong... I just whole heartedly believe in 1 Peter 3:15 - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
and
1 Thess 5:21 - Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Its not so I can be right, its so people can experience the joy and freedom of living in Christ and having full assurance of an awesome salvation.

I believe that the Jew in that situation would be no different than anyone else who doesn't know Jesus Christ as their savior. So Yes... Hell is a scary thing... thats why its talked about so much by Jesus himself! More than heaven in fact.

Im not trying to make anyone be inline with what I believe..  I want them to be inline with what the bible teaches... It just so happens that the main people talking now are an SDA and a Mormon.... both which are considered a non-christian denomination by Christianity itself.

[Rocksurfer]

I give you props Chim, you are strong in what you believe in. And will go to all lengths to prove any other wrong. So what if i was a Jew and only studied the laws of Moses and the old testament, would i go to hell because I am still waiting for a messiah?

My point is anyone can counter act what all others say to make it in line with what they believe. Like you stated above, some versus say get baptized others dont, so you could make an argument either way. It becomes a pissing match pretty much

No you wouldn't go to hell, you'd just have to wait until some Morman had you baptized, I would imagine anyone would except the gospel at that point since you would have been enlightened.

[blackdiamond]

No one knows all that happened between Friday and sunday. So I dont like to assume... but it almost sounds like you are calling Jesus a liar?

They didn't break their legs so they couldn't run off! Thats the first time I have ever heard that... The reason they broke their legs was to make sure they died because those on the cross would push themselves up in order to get a breath... if they couldn't push themselves up because of broken legs then they would suffocate fairly quickly.. and they had to make sure they were going to be dead before the sabbath...  they didn't break the legs of Jesus because he was already dead... the just pierced him to confirm the death.

I dont call you a false teacher until you start throwing out the private doctrines of the SDA faith which are unbiblical.

The basic translation would be, "I say to you today that you will be with me in paradise."

It has been commonly written, "I say to you, today that you will be with me in paradise," but "I say to you today, that you will be with me in paradise," is also a correct way to place the comma.  Did you miss the part where Jesus said that he had NOT gone to His Father?  He said that he had not gone to heaven until the disciples watched him go.

[chim]

The basic translation would be, "I say to you today that you will be with me in paradise."

It has been commonly written, "I say to you, today that you will be with me in paradise," but "I say to you today, that you will be with me in paradise," is also a correct way to place the comma.  Did you miss the part where Jesus said that he had NOT gone to His Father?  He said that he had not gone to heaven until the disciples watched him go.

I can totally see your point... but I tend to lean towards something a little different based on other scriptural evidence... which would take a couple paragraphs to explain if you would like me to...

Main point being.. he was to be in Heaven even though no baptism could possibly take place.

[KDXSR5]

In addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin.

What exactly is the "unpardonable sin"? Just out of curiosity.