Topic: 2.7 vs 3.4 info

[Doof]

as we all know the 3rz is a hot motor these days for motor swaps and what not. i also know the the 3.4 v6 has some serious balls when you can pull 4th up hwy 20 going close to 90 UPHILL passing people like they are standing still


what i hope to get out of this thread is close to this

which motor is better and why
which is better for crawling
average MPG of both of ppl who drive them
which is more cost effective for a swap
how much heavier is the 3.4 compared to the 2.7? Or is the difference negligible?
how much engine bay does the 3.4 take up compared to the 2.7?

this link here is from the marlin site with all the HP and what not, so i know what they are.... but again, what im looking for is which is better and why with the facts/questions answered above

(scroll down to engine data for info)
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=11245.0



edit:

also, would it even be possible to swap the 3.4 into a first/second gen truck?

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC
or your post will most likely get deleted



here is a link to a 3.4 swap with pics

http://www.offroadsolutions.com/projects/85_4runner_5vz-fe_swap.htm

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=603859

[OOPS]

also, would it even be possible to swap the 3.4 into a first/second gen truck?

All you have to do is to look in any Hot/Street rod Mag. and know that just about any engine swap into any vehicle is possible. It is just how much work you are willing and capable of doing. I once helped put a 454 Olds V-8 and B & M hydro into a 53 Crosley station wagon and it was street legal.

[lilbuddy]

2.7 is a 150 hp motor
3.4 is a 190 hp motor

2.7 has 177 ft/lbs tq at 4000rpm
3.4 has 220 ft/lbs tq at 3600rpm

(Keep in mind the more torque is better for crawling)

the 2.7 has a 55.5 hp to litre ratio
the 3.4 has a 58.5 hp to litre ratio


2.7 you can use a w56 tranny with a w59 bellhousing
3.4 you will NEED to run a new tranny, an r150f

Duals for a 2.7 running a w56 transmission using dual mini cases is about $350 for an adapter and $400 for gears
Duals for a 3.4 running a r150f transmission using dual mini cases is about $700 for adapters and $400 for gears

You can get 2.7's from about $700-1600 (estimate)
You can get 3.4s from about $850-2000 (estimate)

My 2.7 gets 16 town and 18-20 freeway
My old 3.4 got 16 town and about 18freeway

2.7 ORS wiring harness is $600
3.4 ORS wiring harness is $700

which motor is better and why

3.4, has more power, gets about the same gas mileage and is just so much more fun to drive.

which is better for crawling

3.4 Has more torque at a lower RPM which like stated above is better

average MPG of both of ppl who drive them

Avg for town and freeway combined was about 17 on the 3.4
Avg for my 3rz is about 18 town and freeway combined

I also do know that big mike (early 3rz in a first gen) and bevin(later 3rz in a second gen) only got about 18mpg all freeway driving from Fresno to the Hammers.

which is more cost effective for a swap

Thats really your own opinion. All in all you will probably end up spending $1000 more for a 3.4... I really think that its fully worth it to spend that much more money into a truck that gets about the same mileage yet has more power and is a lot more fun to drive. If youre going to do a motor swap, you may as well do something that is totally worth it, and i really think a 3.4 is worth it. If you throw in a 2.7 youre going to be stoked for having wayyyy more power then ur turd but that will end up going away and youre going to want more. IF you want more and ur serious you may swap in a 3.4 in later down the road if youre that serious.



Keep in mind on both motor swaps you are going to need a lot of different parts including a oil sump relocation kit which is about the same price. Not only that you will need to do a lot of different modifications on each including exhaust, motor mounts, fuel delievery, and make sure to keep all emissions.

As you can see, all in all a 3.4 swap will cost a lot more. Sure youre only gaining 40 more hp but you and I both know that the 3.4 is a badass motor and fully worth the price. You already know that my 3.4 totally owned my 3rz at anything...

The early 3.4s (95.5-96) were the troublesome motors that had the headgasket problems like the 3.0, so if you WERE to get a 3.4 just get the later style one and you wont have the headgasket problem that people soemtimes complain about.

Yes, you can get a 3.4 litre motor into a 1st gen truck, 1st gen runner/2nd gen truck or a 2nd gen rrunner/3rd gen truck.

Anything else you want to know, you know you can ask me. I unlike a lot of board members have actually owned both motors so I know both and I am not just going off by what I read.

[John Doe]

Very good info 

[88_Pathy]

Great posting. I personally have a 85 x-cab with a 3rz. It scoots when you punch it. Not a hot rod or race car but moves pretty good. Depending on how heavy you are makes the biggest difference. BigMike has a faster 3rz than most and his in my opinion hauls ass, but he is super light. So, if you heavy..3.4 and if your light 2.7.

[Plekto]

Another option if you are concerned with mpg and just want a good, more modern 22RE replacement is to get the 2.4L from a Tacoma.  8HP less than the 2.7(feels the same to me, actually) but a couple of mpg better.(EPA says 23mpg average).

Of course, what I really want is a diesel 4 cylinder engine.  35mpg+ and loads of torque(not like any of these things are fast).  I don't know what models Toyota made, though, that one could reasonably expect to find in the U.S.(obviously not turbo-diesel models)

[dan_b]

I have done the 3.4 swap to a '86 runner. This is the motor of choice (only my opinion).
Fuel mileage depends on trans, gears, and tire size. A stock truck will get 18-20 mpg highway with a manual trans. I run a manual, 3.88's, and 35 inch tires and rarely have to down shift  for a freeway hill. (I'm also running a TRD supercharger).
You can put a 3.4 in a truck or runner that has the 3.0 and it will mount to the trans and Eng. mount.  I recommend buying a salvaged truck so you will have every thing you will need, instead of piecing it together from multipal trucks. I bought one for $4200. Made some money back selling what i didn't need.
Marlin knows my runner and 4x4wire.com did a small article on it in 2000. It may still be posted. Look it up under
"Dan Basham's superchard '86 4runner".
Let me know if I can be more help.

Dan

[4RnrRick]

My documented Gas mileage...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5878774&postcount=1251
3rz, 85 extra cab, ~4200 lbs, 5.29 gears, 36" bias ply iroks
~14 mpg almost 2500 record miles. City, freeway & trail mileage average.

And here
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5902391&postcount=1259
3rz, 85 extra cab, ~4700 lbs, 5.29 gears, 36" bias ply iroks
Eugene, OR to Rubicon and back home.
17.2 mpg average over 1091 miles.

[Doof [OP]]

buddys post was an orgasm to the head.. so much info it was over whelming...

im not looking to do this swap tomorrow but in the future once i get a place and get my in order it will go down. maybe the fall of 09 and winter as well. it would be tits to get a first gen and a donor taco if i go the 3.4 route...

but i hope this thread keeps going with more info and more personal input of those that have these motors and what not

[88_Pathy]

A runner would be a 3.4 candidate.

[TacoRunner]

2.7 is a 150 hp motor
3.4 is a 199 hp motor

Sorry Lilbuddy but the 3.4L has 190hp

I have the 2.7 in an 85 Runner and as much as I love it, (over the 2.4) knowing what I know now, I would do the 3.4.
Dont get me wrong I love the 2.7 but I did the swap for power and I got the motor for free when my ex-girl friend rolled her Taco. So I didn't really get to choose.

I want power. Economy is second. And I do plan on a SUPER CHARGER

As for price, a friend once told me. If you dont do it the way you REALLY want it. Then you will always be wanting more.

In the long run a few hundred buck or even a thousand won't really matter.

So go big and be happy.

[lilbuddy]

Sorry, I was close... Edited.....

As for price, a friend once told me. If you dont do it the way you REALLY want it. Then you will always be wanting more.

In the long run a few hundred buck or even a thousand won't really matter.

So go big and be happy.

I totally agree with ALL of that......

Thats good to hear that someone even doing the  3rz wants to swap in a 3.4.... Mike seems to be the only one thats REALLY REALLY REALLY happy with his swap.

I want power. Economy is second. And I do plan on a SUPER CHARGER

For a DD though that kinda sucks but the 3.4 gets close to the same...almost better.

[yota_krawler]

good info, I want to do a sencond gen runner with a 3.4 full width and 40s with duals. that wont happen for a while but thats the plan! thanks this is an awsome thread keep it goin!

[TacoRunner]

Guys dont get me wrong, the 3RZ is a huge upgrade from the 22RE. And I love the motor, its small, its light, its tight, its strong, its efficent. Overall its a great motor. There is nothing wrong with it.

But there are other great motors out there as well. And if you're going to go through the pain of a custom motor swap, you had better make sure it was dam worth it.

And no I will not be swapping out my 2.7 for a 3.4. I've already spent to much on this thing.

The bottom line is. If you're starting from scratch, why short change yourself by 40hp and 43lf lbs. just to save a few bucks. It would be 

[46&2]

Great thread, lot of good info. Here are my questions though. First, how much heavier is the 3.4 compared to the 2.7? Or is the difference negligible?

Second, obviously a V6 is going to be bigger than a 4 cylinder, but in terms of stuffing one in say a 1st or second gen, how much more cramped is the 3.4?? I know a lot of guys are running 350s and other V8s and that is one hell of a squeeze. Say I was going to put a 3.4 in my 85 4runner. Is it going to basically take every last bit of space? If there is one thing I really hate it is a cramped engine bay. Just wondering about the size difference between the 3.4 and the 2.7 in early model toyotas.

[Doof [OP]]

Great thread, lot of good info. Here are my questions though. First, how much heavier is the 3.4 compared to the 2.7? Or is the difference negligible?

Second, obviously a V6 is going to be bigger than a 4 cylinder, but in terms of stuffing one in say a 1st or second gen, how much more cramped is the 3.4?? I know a lot of guys are running 350s and other V8s and that is one hell of a squeeze. Say I was going to put a 3.4 in my 85 4runner. Is it going to basically take every last bit of space? If there is one thing I really hate it is a cramped engine bay. Just wondering about the size difference between the 3.4 and the 2.7 in early model toyotas.

great ?'s

ill add those to the top list so more ppl see them if they dont read through and see that post

[yota_krawler]

when you look under the hood of a truck with a 3.0 they look crammed. But a 4 banger looks like they are not big enough.

[Doof [OP]]

when you look under the hood of a truck with a 3.0 they look crammed. But a 4 banger looks like they are not big enough.

okay?

[TacoRunner]

3.4 in an 85 4Runner

http://www.offroadsolutions.com/images/projects/85_4runner_5vz-fe_swap/engine-installed-over.jpg


http://www.offroadsolutions.com/projects/85_4runner_5vz-fe_swap.htm

[46&2]

3.4 in an 85 4Runner

http://www.offroadsolutions.com/images/projects/85_4runner_5vz-fe_swap/engine-installed-over.jpg


http://www.offroadsolutions.com/projects/85_4runner_5vz-fe_swap.htm

Sweet, thanks for those links. Not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be.

[cam011]

3.4 in progress into my 88, looks like there will be a bit more room in the engine bay than the 3.0 had, still a few things to add that'll take up some room though. I'll update with my first impressions once it's up and running if this thread is still going strong, hopefully in the next few days. I've never driven a 3.4 truck or Runner, just the 3.0 and many 22re's.

[Yoat Goat]

Cam011, are you running a BL? and will the stock hood close?

Really love this thread!

[cam011]

No body lift and no, the hood won't close, will have to be cut out. It's very close, I'd think an inch or inch and a half would clear. My truck is tall enough as it is, I want it lower so I'll just run a scoop instead of a B/L.

[Doof [OP]]

do you have a thread on it?

what did you do for motor mounts and what not

[Doof [OP]]

detailed thread on pirate for the 3.4 swaps

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=603859

[cam011]

No real thread going on my swap but post up if you have any specific questions and I'll answer them if I can. Once I get this up and running I'll see if I can get a bit of info put together.

Motor mounts were the complete mounts off the 3.0, removed and bolted onto the 3.4. The drivers side fit exactly the same as the factory 3.4 mount bracket and the passenger side required some modification. As far as I know, this is an issue on the 88 blocks only and it's my understanding that the 89-95 3.0 mounts bolt up directly. I'm going to see if I can find a pass. side mount from a later 3.0 to try and verify.

The issue: the 88 block uses 4 bolts to hold the mount bracket to the block in about a 2 1/2" by 5" rectangular pattern all bolt holes on the same plane (just guessing on dimensions.) Now it's my understanding that there were issues when the 3.0 was first introduced with the patch with the 4 holes cast into it breaking away from the block, thus it was improved on the 89 and later blocks and carried through into the 5vzfe.

The 5vz and apparantly the later 3vz use 2 of the same holes and 2 others higher up on a different plane than the lower 2. I just used the lower 2 that worked and welded some scrap steel to the mount bracket to utilise the upper 2 mount holes like the 3.4 style mounts. It's not as pretty as the factory brackets but it's definitely strong enough and I'll keep my eyes open for a later mount.

[cam011]

Here's a few others I've collected while searching around for info, sorry if some are reposts.

http://www.yotatech.com/f160/3-4-swap-started-82145/
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=952779&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://www.andrewzook.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=37
http://yotatech.com/f2/swaped-3-slow-3-4l-nice-16644/?perpage=25&pagenumber=1
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=137361&highlight=3.0+to+3.4+swap
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat.php?%20Cat=&Number=534324&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=379904&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
http://www.yotatech.com/f160/elvota-s-3-4-swap-128285/
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=603859&highlight=
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=623423&highlight=
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=512033
http://www.yotatech.com/f160/project-85-5vz-fe-4runner-122396/index2.html

[cam011]

Here's some info on oil pan swapping, it's for a 3.0 if I remember right but the same applies to the 3.4.

The pan I used on my 3.4 is from a 2wd 3.0 equipped truck, I'd guess about 90. I didn't check the door jamb for the year at the PnP but it was 3rd generation but still said Toyota on the grill instead of the symbol on the later ones.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23993

[BigMike]

the 2.7 has a 55.5 hp to litre ratio
the 3.4 has a 58.5 hp to litre ratio

More importantly for Rock Crawling, the 2.7 has a 65.6 torque/liter ratio whereas the 3.4 has but a 64.7 torque/liter. Displacement for displacement, it may be a null point, but I'll be the first to admit that the 2.7 can in no way compare to the brute power of the 3.4: lower and wider power band with more of it.

Yes, you can get a 3.4 litre motor into a 1st gen truck, 1st gen runner/2nd gen truck or a 2nd gen rrunner/3rd gen truck.

Remember the 2nd gen cabs have 1-3/4" more distance between the firewall and radiator support, and the 3rd gen cabs are likely to have a bit more.

So, if you heavy..3.4 and if your light 2.7.

This is the first point I had in mind when I was reading the opening post above.

Also, related to weight, please consider the extra weight of the 3.4 will hammer hard on your leaf springs, birfields, tires, frame, cab...

Another option if you are concerned with mpg and just want a good, more modern 22RE replacement is to get the 2.4L from a Tacoma.  8HP less than the 2.7(feels the same to me, actually) but a couple of mpg better.(EPA says 23mpg average).

Plekto: I have driven two Rock Crawlers with 2.4 2RZ engines, and I was largely unimpressed. Remember, the 8 horsepower difference fairs insignificant when compared to the nearly 20 less ft-lbs of torque.


Remember also that more power = increased load on your entire truck from head to toes, from body mounts to wheel spacers. With the 3.4, you'll be more likely to wear out and over heat your differentials, transmission, transfer case; more likely to break an axle/birfield; more likely to rip your cab in half at the inner fender walls; more likely to wear out your brakes (you'll be stopping more weight with more inertia), more likely to S-bend your springs while stopping this increased weight; harder to steer when aired down because of the extra weight above the front tires; yadda yadda yadda


I would recommend to consider what the godfather has said above,

I want power. Economy is second.

You ultimately need to ask yourself what you truly want: Is it balls-out power (the 3.4) or is it efficiency and practicality (the 2.7)?

[TacoRunner]

Hey BigMike

What do you think the 3.4 weights? Maybe 150lbs.

I would recommend to consider what the godfather has said above,
You ultimately need to ask yourself what you truly want: Is it balls-out power (the 3.4) or is it efficiency and practicality (the 2.7)?

I really like this point, I think illistrates verywell the two power plants, or at least the advantages of both.