Topic: A whole pile of 22R/ 22RE/ engnblder questions.

[LOL @ IFS]

I have an '81 with the carbed 22R.  I was thinking about a 4.3 swap, but the more I drive the truck, the more I realize it's a nice running engine and that I'd like to keep it in there, but it doesn't have the power I'm looking for, nor does it have the type of fuel delivery I like. 

I want to convert to fuel injection with emphasis on torque.  Here's my plan, and basically, if any of you have better ideas within the realm of reason, let me know.

I was looking at ZOR's MY-T-FI as an attractive way to get rid of the carb.  Basically, it replaces the carb, but you retain the carbed head and intake manifold.  His website and posts that he's made on various Suzuki boards say that the 22R responds well to this.  I did a search, but didn't see too many on here or Pirate that have used it.  Anyone?

I was also looking at a Thorley header with a 2.25" collector followed by a 2.25" exhaust.  I'm going for low end, so max flow isn't important to me, but would a 2.5" setup be better?

At some point, the engine is going to need a rebuild; unless I need it, would .040 over pistons make that much of a difference in torque?  Nearest I figure, they'd only give me a 54cc bump or so. 

Lastly, I was thinking about the EB RV head with one of his cams... either the 261 or 268.  I suppose I could just email him, but I figured I'd post on here to see if anyone's used the head and one of those cams and if the claimed 10- 20 HP increase is worth it.  Is the H/O off road head he offers worth the additional cost? 

Thanks for the input, guys.   

[brainlessfool]

 If you like the way it runs and don't have a need for any more power then stay with the 22R. ok you can raise the power out put a little bit, butt not very much with out getting silly with time and $$..


Other wise do a eng. swap.

[jimbo74]

stay at 2.25... if you go bigger, you will lose torque and gain high end (on a stock engine, these high reving little displacement engines need the backpressure for torque more than they need the hp)

[yota_krawler]

I am interested hope you get the feed back you are looking for, I would like to know!

[RN37DD]

that vw fuel injection looks interesting and I've always liked the idea of fuel injection with out the computer. i know they last forever on the vw engine. but I'd need more details by people that actually put it on a Toyota before went to far. I'd put a 268 cam at least..  I'm still kicking myself for not putting a bigger cam in. as soon as winter hits i think I'll try a LCE cam with 440 lift.

[Plekto]

That pseudo-FI conversion kit looks interesting(though I'd convert it to a proper 22RE setup myself), but the big deal IMO is to get the distributor replaced with a flamethrower.

http://www.pertronix.com/home.htm
This is a bolt-in replacement for the distributor, coil, and cap assembly that effectively makes it into a modern coil pack type setup.  Combined with a OEM FI system, it makes it work noticeably better.  Combined with a carb, it's like you have a different engine since the ignition is now all computer controlled.

I'd be tempted to do a swap here before I messed with the carbs and injection.  I did this type of swap on an old Mercedes years ago and it was amazing, especially at high rpms.

[kneedownnate]

stay at 2.25... if you go bigger, you will lose torque and gain high end (on a stock engine, these high reving little displacement engines need the backpressure for torque more than they need the hp)

That's a myth I've personally proven to be untrue.  I had 2.5" exhaust on my 4by and could chug up inclines at a very low idle, stab the throttle and it'd wrap up and spin the tires if I wanted.  It was loud, so I plugged a 2.25" muffler in line (because I had a new one laying around) with the other one and lost low end response. 

If anybody has the money to experiment with this themselves I strongly recommend it.  I love busting myths and misconceptions with these engines!

[te51levin]

I have an '81 with the carbed 22R...<snip>...I want to convert to fuel injection with emphasis on torque...<snip>...I was also looking at a Thorley header with a 2.25" collector followed by a 2.25" exhaust.  I'm going for low end, so max flow isn't important to me, but would a 2.5" setup be better?

If you're going to convert to EFI anyway, you may as well use the 22R-E intake manifold.  Those long runners are really going to help cylinder filling at low RPM, and should make a lot more grunt than the short, untuned carb manifold.  Might as well take advantage of the engineering Toyota already did.

2.25" is plenty big enough for the horsepower your engine will make.  Just be sure not to choke it off with a restrictive muffler.  Flowmasters, for example, are ironically not very high flow compared to many other mufflers.  If you're not going to be dragging it across rocks and stumps, a Dynomax Super Turbo is a favorite of mine.  They are not a sturdy as a welded muff like a Flowmaster, but they flow much better and sound a lot nicer.  If durability is more important, Magnaflow is tough to beat.  They are welded, very robust, and very high flow, though not always as quiet as a turbo-style.  If you also use a resonator, try to avoid the louvered core style.  Perforated cores flow a lot better.

That's a myth I've personally proven to be untrue...<snip>...I love busting myths and misconceptions with these engines!

Exactly right.  Backpressure breated by a restrictive exhaust system is NEVER desirable.  I know the guys at the muffler shop will tell you that backpressure makes torque, but the simple fact is that they are not engineers and often have no idea what they are talking about.

Something to remember: just because someone works in a given industry does not make them an expert..on anything!  I know plenty of Toyota technicians who frankly don't know a whole lot about how some things work, or why.  They know how to diagnose the vehicle using the steps outlined in the books and the computer, but that does not mean they know anything about why a system is designed the way it is, or why it works the way it does.

If a restrictive exhaust system made torque, we would all leave it stock and brag about our low-end.  Or weld a washer in your tailpipe and see how much stump-pulling torque you've created...?  The old "backpressure=torque" myth is a massive oversimplification of the need for reasonably sized manifold/header runners to preserve gas velocity at low RPM.  Huge header tubes that allow more flow/horsepower at high RPM do not provide velocity at low RPM, and that hurts torque, but once out of the header or manifold, I doubt you'd hurt torque one bit by going from 2.25" to 2.5" system.  I also doubt that a 2.5" system is necessary to support your engine's airflow needs.  My little MR2 makes 160-170bhp and seems quite happy with a 2.25" system, though I suppose I ought to measure backpressure after the header to be sure it's not being choked off.

Another key factor is that reducing backpressure increases airflow through the engine.  If the engine does not receive extra fuel to go along with that air, it will run lean and not produce the power it should.  A stock 22R-E EFI system will read airflow and fuel accordingly, so that should not be a problem, but if you reduce backpressure on a carbureted engine, or one with speed density EFI (in which airflow is calculated by RPM and manifold vacuum, not measured directly), you may well end up with a lean condition and a vehicle that runs poorly.  The problem is not that there isn't enough backpressure; the problem is that there isn't enough fuel for the airflow!  But of course the exhaust system gets blamed...

I guess that's enough    for now, but hopefully that helps you make a good decision or two!

[LOL @ IFS [OP]]

Thanks for the replies, guys. 

Regarding backpressure, ect... Backpressure making torque is a myth.  It's really the high exhaust gas velocity that makes torque by scavenging the cylinders.  The EFI will compensate for increased airflow; most, if not all EFI systems have enough extra in their maps to compensate for IHE bolt ons.  Yes, tuning will help at that level, but you're only taking a couple HP.  Once you start with the head work, cam, displacement increase, higher comp. ratio, ect... that's when you need to really tune it.

I did some junkyard diving today and was unable to find a doner vehicle for the My-T-FI stuff that wasn't molestered beyond the point of recognition.  I did the math and to get the parts and the kit from Myron, I'm looking at about $700, shipped.  So I looked on Craigslist and saw an '87 4Runner for $900.  I talked to a friend who needs a 22RE block and some other goodies for his '86 4Runner, and we're going to go half and half on the truck, take what we want, and send the rest to the scrapper. 

My new question is this... are there any sensors on the 22RE block that are NOT on the 22R block?  Wiring it to the truck aside, can I take the 22RE head and manifold and bolt it to my '81 22R block and have it run, or will I need the 22RE block as well, because it has sensors that the 22R doesn't?