Topic: Lifting the front and using longer shackles

[Eschenfeldt]

Again.... please explain what force is acting on the axle housing!!???

Gnarls.

I just wanted to give an update, I put longer shackles on without doing anything to the front spring hanger and it changed my pinion angle way more than I thought it was going to, now I have a bad vibration in 4x4 so I’m either going to shim it or weld in a longer front hanger... probably going to shim it

[Snowtoy]

I just wanted to give an update, I put longer shackles on without doing anything to the front spring hanger and it changed my pinion angle way more than I thought it was going to, now I have a bad vibration in 4x4 so I’m either going to shim it or weld in a longer front hanger... probably going to shim it

You are going about this wrong, and creating issues where you didn't have any.  Other than cosmetics, there was nothing wrong with the slight rake of the rear, a rake that would have been been there if the stock springs weren't 39yrs old.  If you can't live with the rake of the rear, or the ride is too stiff, you should rework the rear springs, not be trying to raise the front.

If the old man emu springs use a longer main leaf, I would start by removing the old man emu main, and replace the stock main with it, or cut the eyes off the stock main leaf and use the full stock set with new old man emu main, and bolt up the springs and see what you get.  From there, if you need more lift, add the next longest old man emu leaf, pack where it fits by size, or replace one of the stock springs if it is the same size, and bolt then back up.  Repeat process, mixing and matching until you get the height you want.  This could be more work than a quick fix, but it would be the correct way to resolve the issue, and not effect pinion angles nor driveline angles other than the slight increase due to the 2" lift springs.

[blackdiamond]

I am not trying to be contentious or argumentative but I do try to be FACTUAL.

So …. When I raised my ‘85 shortbed with a different leaf spring pack in the front and the back and installed a longer shackles in the rear. As I remember it was about 3.5” to 4” lift.  The rear pinion angle DID NOT CHANGE after installing rear springs.  BUT because the lift changed the U-joint angles, I had a little drive shaft vibration – I NEEDED TO CHANGE THE PINION ANGLE.  So I added wedges under the bottom spring to make an adjustment which eliminated the vibrations caused by the out of sync angles of the front and rear U-joints. 

I have spoken to 5 manufacturers about their leaf springs, pinion angles, and U-joint angles.

You can do your own research.  If you call Charlie at Rocky Road Outfitters in Utah, who sells Old Emu suspension springs and kits, he will happily explain when and how the pinion angle changes.  He’s been around 4x4s for a long time and sells to popular 4-wheel drive vehicle owners who are modifying their suspensions.

If the arc of the bottom leaf that mounts to the housing pad is increased enough it can change the angle of the pinion, BUT the amount that it changes is not typically an issue for common non-radical lifts, but it should be a consideration because of potential U-joint angles becoming out of sync.

Gnarls.

  You have a gift for being argumentative and it sounds contentious when you imply that the other person isn't being factual.

The pinion angle is effectively the angle of the face of the pinion relative to horizontal.  With a standard driveshaft the goal is to have the face of the transfer case output flange to be parallel to the face of the pinion flange so that the u-joints will have the same angles.  The pinion angle of OEM rear springs assume a specific spring and shackle combination.  If you install a longer shackle the the pinion will rotate up a bit which will also change the angle slightly.  Think of the springs as a straight line between the mounts, if you move one of the mounts up or down the angle of the line is also changed.

Aftermarket springs (lift or not) are also designed based on a specific shackle length, so if you run aftermarket shackles the pinion angle is unlikely to be exactly what was designed.

There's a bit of wiggle room in the angles that won't result in a driveline issue, but that doesn't mean that the angles didn't change.

I have read articles from more than five manufactures and run top of the line custom springs on my 4Runner so I'm also an expert 

 

[Eschenfeldt [OP]]

You are going about this wrong, and creating issues where you didn't have any.  Other than cosmetics, there was nothing wrong with the slight rake of the rear, a rake that would have been been there if the stock springs weren't 39yrs old.  If you can't live with the rake of the rear, or the ride is too stiff, you should rework the rear springs, not be trying to raise the front.

If the old man emu springs use a longer main leaf, I would start by removing the old man emu main, and replace the stock main with it, or cut the eyes off the stock main leaf and use the full stock set with new old man emu main, and bolt up the springs and see what you get.  From there, if you need more lift, add the next longest old man emu leaf, pack where it fits by size, or replace one of the stock springs if it is the same size, and bolt then back up.  Repeat process, mixing and matching until you get the height you want.  This could be more work than a quick fix, but it would be the correct way to resolve the issue, and not effect pinion angles nor driveline angles other than the slight increase due to the 2" lift springs.

Yeah I agree with everything you’re saying but this is actually trying to fix a previous problem which is I shouldn’t have ever bought the old man emu springs because I want to do a high steer conversion but I don’t think I can fit it under a 2” lift looks like I need over 3” at least but honestly with these big shackles it now looks like I have 3 1/2” or so but maybe I should just buy different springs which kind of sucks cause I spent a lot of money on these but I’m kind of new to all this so I figure it’s all just part of the learning experience

[Eschenfeldt [OP]]

I’m buying everything I need to do high steer in a couple weeks and after I install it if I can drop the springs back down to the original shackle height that’s the route I will go otherwise I’m going to temporarily shim it and then when I get a chance I’m going to just replace the front springs for the appropriate height 

[toyodaaddict]

I’m buying everything I need to do high steer in a couple weeks and after I install it if I can drop the springs back down to the original shackle height that’s the route I will go otherwise I’m going to temporarily shim it and then when I get a chance I’m going to just replace the front springs for the appropriate height 

You can fit high steer with ome springs but you need to use a drop hanger. We have multiple members here that have done it. I dont know what length shackles they run but longer than stock.  That setup will fit 35s without cutting.

Did you look at the links I posted in your other thread.
https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=104818.0

[Gnarly4X]

I’m buying everything I need to do high steer in a couple weeks and after I install it if I can drop the springs back down to the original shackle height that’s the route I will go otherwise I’m going to temporarily shim it and then when I get a chance I’m going to just replace the front springs for the appropriate height 

Be sure to check with Blackdiamond before you are all done, he is an expert on Toyota's with a lean!

Gnarls. 

[Snowtoy]

Yeah I agree with everything you’re saying but this is actually trying to fix a previous problem which is I shouldn’t have ever bought the old man emu springs because I want to do a high steer conversion but I don’t think I can fit it under a 2” lift looks like I need over 3” at least but honestly with these big shackles it now looks like I have 3 1/2” or so but maybe I should just buy different springs which kind of sucks cause I spent a lot of money on these but I’m kind of new to all this so I figure it’s all just part of the learning experience

If you don't have access to someone who is welder, a shop is likely going to charge you a $200/side in labor to remove/weld up new mounts.
 While not a great set of springs, Summit Racing has Procomp 3" front springs for under $60/side, you could likely use the main from them with your Old man emu pack and have a fairly good set of springs.  Another option would be to have a local spring shop make you a 3" lift spring main to go with the set you have now.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/exp-31212r/make/toyota/model/pickup/year/1981

[Slabzilla]

Because your front  axle is not centered, eye-to-eye, on the spring, as you add length to the shackle you rotate the pinion down. This small movement adds to the u-joint angle and caster in a small way depending on the length of the shackle.  You don't need to ad shackles to the front but taking a leaf out of the rear packs is a good idea.  Unless you carry loads in your bed all the time and just use your truck with the bed empty, Heavy Duty springs are way over what you need and you will always be a$$ high with a rough ride.  Your pinion angles with a 2-3" will not affect the pinion angle enough to be a problem.  And, you need at least a 4" lift to run High-Steer,  Sorry.    

[Slabzilla]

Because your front  axle is not centered, eye-to-eye, on the spring, as you add length to the shackle you rotate the pinion down. This small movement adds to the u-joint angle and caster in a small way depending on the length of the shackle.  You don't need to ad shackles to the front but taking a leaf out of the rear packs is a good idea.  Unless you carry loads in your bed all the time and just use your truck with the bed empty, Heavy Duty springs are way over what you need and you will always be a$$ high with a rough ride.  Your pinion angles with a 2-3" will not affect the pinion angle enough to be a problem.  And, you need at least a 4" lift to run High-Steer,  Sorry.     The rear pinion angle won't change unless you add longer shackles or a wedge.

[Eschenfeldt [OP]]

Because your front  axle is not centered, eye-to-eye, on the spring, as you add length to the shackle you rotate the pinion down. This small movement adds to the u-joint angle and caster in a small way depending on the length of the shackle.  You don't need to ad shackles to the front but taking a leaf out of the rear packs is a good idea.  Unless you carry loads in your bed all the time and just use your truck with the bed empty, Heavy Duty springs are way over what you need and you will always be a$$ high with a rough ride.  Your pinion angles with a 2-3" will not affect the pinion angle enough to be a problem.  And, you need at least a 4" lift to run High-Steer,  Sorry.     The rear pinion angle won't change unless you add longer shackles or a wedge.

Thank you for the suggestion I’m going to try to use the Procomp main leaf spring with my 0ME pack that seems like a good idea. I installed the high steer and everything fits Very nicely with the 3 inch lift I currently have but I’m still using the longer shackles which basically means I can’t use four-wheel-drive because my pinion angle is so far off at the moment I think I’ll pick up the springs this weekend if I can so I can get rid of these long shackles. Like I said it  all fits under my 3 inch lift but  there is no wiggle room if I hadn’t of placed everything exactly where I did which is as far forward as I could possibly get it it wouldn’t have fit so I guess my question is if I did just decide to get 4 inch springs does anybody have any suggestions on what springs to go with I want to stick with the stock hanger location  I just need to know if anybody has recommendations for a quality 4 inch spring for the front.

[Snowtoy]

If you want lift springs that ride like stock, and not a buckboard, Alcan Springs is your best bet.
https://alcanspring.com/

[Eschenfeldt [OP]]

So I’ve been on disability from work because of this hernia that I just had surgery on two days ago and I can’t really move around so I wanted to give an update on my truck for anyone who cares. So I was using old man emu 2 inch lift springs but I installed high steer and to gain clearance I had to put on 6 inch shackles which threw off my pinion angle and made my four-wheel-drive not function properly because of the terrible vibration. I knew this set up wasn’t going to work but it got my truck on the road and then cylinder number four dropped a valve destroyed the head and the block so I had to source a new early 22R block because I already had a 20r head. Found a block from a guy in Washington took it to the machine shop had it board 0.30 over decked honed all the good stuff then I inspected the head found out the head I had been sold for $100 had brand new seats brand new guides reground valves three angle valve job  so that was pretty awesome I replaced the valve springs, retainers, and keepers with very nice parts from 22reperformance.com Put everything together with a crank scraper from LC engineering as well as their adjustable cam gear and other goodies( like their water block off plate that you need to relocate the coolant hose coming out of the intake manifold to the  same location as the 22R intake manifold) Sidenote I bring this part up specifically because I’ve seen a lot of people talking about their 20/22r hybrid motors overheating and I believe it’s because they are running the hose that comes out of the top of the 20r intake manifold into their heater core which is definitely wrong . After that was put together I bought a set of Alcan leaf springs from a guy in Oregon city, he had ordered a new custom set so he could move his tire further forward and the ones I got I think he used for about 3 months they seem to be in, as far as I can tell, brand new shape. The truck is running and driving great!!!! the new motor is super strong I’m doing a bit of re-jetting on my weber 38/38 because I installed an AFR gauge and I’m running lean almost everywhere. As for people claiming 20 30 40 50 60 extra horsepower from the 20/22r hybrid well I don’t know about all that but it sure feels way way better torque everywhere!!! And I would chalk that up to my old engine being worn out but when I pulled everything apart it seemed in pretty good condition besides the fact that it was destroyed by that valve dropping. But now I have torque all over the place and my engine is not even broken in yet I don’t even think I have quite 100 miles on it yet. Also got my V6 brake upgrade done of course I have the 1 inch master cylinder and I should be buying a dual diaphragm booster soon. I have most of the parts to convert over to discs in the rear I just don’t know if it’s a good idea or not?This truck has been a hell of an accomplishment for me considering I’ve never really done any mechanical work and I certainly have never built an engine before the closest thing I’ve come to doing anything like this is port and polishing chainsaw cylinders... cause I’m an arborist. Forums like this has made it all possible thank you guys I really appreciate it.

[Eschenfeldt [OP]]

Gonna try to add some pictures

[Eschenfeldt [OP]]

So pretty

[Eschenfeldt [OP]]

Last one

[Eschenfeldt [OP]]

 Sorry I probably should’ve put all this on a build page or some thing but whatever I’m on  A bunch of pain meds right now don’t expect me to do things right lol... bigger tires new diff ratios... probably 4.56 with true trac lsds coming soon... i’m not really trying to build a rock crawler I just want to put 31” inch tires on it and I have a W56 rebuilt by marlin crawler waiting to go in The L 50 that’s in it now is perfectly fine but I bought this thing a year ago and it’s just been sitting in my living room.

[OVRAROK]

Looking good.

[RUGER]

looks good. keep up the good work.

RUGER

[Slabzilla]

Looking good,  keep up the good work.  The best way to learn is to do and you seem to be doing it right.  I like Tru-tracs for a daily driver, just don't use any super slik gear oil in them, they work best with good old gear oil, nuthin' fancy.   

[Snowtoy]

Sorry I probably should’ve put all this on a build page or some thing but whatever I’m on  A bunch of pain meds right now don’t expect me to do things right lol... bigger tires new diff ratios... probably 4.56 with true trac lsds coming soon... i’m not really trying to build a rock crawler I just want to put 31” inch tires on it and I have a W56 rebuilt by marlin crawler waiting to go in The L 50 that’s in it now is perfectly fine but I bought this thing a year ago and it’s just been sitting in my living room.

With what your plans and use for it are, I would consider going with a 4.56's/e-locker 3rd out of a first gen Tacoma or 3rd gen 4Runner('96-'04), for the rear, and just an open diff, or e-locker if you find two, for the front.  Toyota also produced the e-locker for those gens with 4.88 gears, incase you are considering going with 33's.