Author Topic: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE  (Read 2207 times)

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Gnarly4X

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CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« on: May 13, 2020, 05:13:35 AM »
DISCLAIMER:  This Excel sheet and data contained in has been produced by a highly respected desktop dyno software.  The actual cam specs used to produce the numbers may have changed or been incorrect when I collected them.  All data may or may not be the actual numbers that would be produced on a SuperFlow SF-902S Engine Dyno.  The numbers are not intended to represent the actual specifications, torque or horsepower numbers of any manufacturer or any particular camshaft they offer.  The data is intended to represent a comparison of different camshaft specifications in the same engine.  Some engine specs have been changed.


With some hesitation, I decided to post this in the Engine section because over the past 20+ years I have seen very limited documentation or information on camshaft profiles and specifications for the early Toyota 20/22 engines.  I have, over the years, read lots of marketing hype about a supplier’s cam, but with no proof or any dyno test data.

This forum and some of the active members, over the past 3-1/2 years, have provided me with lots of helpful information, as well as many many hours of entertainment, so this is my contribution to those who have been so helpful and entertaining.

To those who have an interest, I hope my cam comparisons will offer some insight into the mysterious camshaft, available options, and performance gains for our little 22RE engines.  The numbers here generally will be very similar to the numbers produced by a 22R.  However, some cam suppliers offer profiles specifically for the carb’d engine and the EFI engine.  Those numbers can be significantly different between a 22RE and a 20/22R.  Keep in mind there is a lot more to a camshaft and what it does than lift and duration.

I started researching and collecting data on every camshaft I could find at the time starting in 2000.  I then plugged the available or published cam specs into Performance Trends Engine Analyzer software.  My goal was to find a cam that increased the torque between 2500 and 3500 RPMs.  That range was where I wanted the most increase in power for my driving needs.  Horsepower numbers at high RPMs was not a significant factor because I don’t race and would only be at 5,000+ RPMs for very short durations.  However, at the sand dunes in Glamis, I was running at higher RPMs 4,000 to 5,000+ much of the time while actually “duning”.

In the year 2000, my original goal was to select an aftermarket cam and then chassis dyno test it at my local speed shop.  My 1985 shortbed was totaled on 2001.  My current 1986 rebuild failed, so I may or may not ever get to do some actual chassis dyno testing of a few selected camshafts.

The Excel spreadsheet represents 100s of hours of research and 100s of hours of doing mock pulls in the software.  I varied the published cam specs often to “optimize” the cam profile.  I also varied the engine specs to see what changes would produce the best torque numbers.  I have hundreds of pulls on the 20R, 22R, and 22RE with various engine and cam specs.

Data produced by the Engine Analyzer v3.2 software may not calculate a particular performance issue like cam overlap degrees and the 22RE’s ECU management tolerance.  Or, for example the 22RE’s known sensitivity to large high flow exhaust systems that typically cause a noticeable drop in torque and throttle response.  The software is very sophisticated and produces an incredible amount of data!

Please notice the interesting fact that the factory stock camshaft, apparently the same specs for the 22R and the 22RE, produces very good numbers.

I also compared the common head modification of 1mm oversized valves with the factory stock valves.

I have highlighted the RPM range that is my interest – 2500 to 3500 – the most useable power range for my driving needs.  Your needs may vary.

Please look at the torque and HP numbers carefully through the RPM range.  You can use Excel’s Split Window feature to easily see comparisons.

I’ve attached the Excel sheet in formats .xls and .xlsx.  If you don’t have access to Microsoft Excel, you can use any number of free Excel viewer, like this one:

https://microsoft-excel-viewer.en.softonic.com/

Enjoy… or not.

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 07:44:54 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2020, 08:09:06 PM »
Going over those numbers I'd say the Comp Cams 252s and Schneider 250-260 are the best overall choices. The Comp Cams seems to fall off a little quicker and the Schneider keeps a flatter curve. As for the numbers under 2500 either would do. I'd go for the Schneider.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2020, 01:54:13 AM »
Going over those numbers ….

Hey deucie,

I appreciate your feedback.

Well, you picked the same two I highly considered.   I would like to try the Schneider 210/216. The torque numbers from 1000 to 2900 are better than the 216/216, and though it’s not much, I believe it would be noticeable on my butt-dyno.

The CC252 will do better in gas mileage because its got more torque in the lower RPMS. It also peaks HP closer to 5000 RPMs, of course trading off some HP.

The Crower cam looks very interesting.  The peak torque is right where I want it.  And the peak HP is also right were I want it with very nice power from 4900 to 5300.  Until I did the numbers on the Crower, my pick was the Schneider or the CC252.  I know one guy who installed the 252S in his 22R and noticed improved gas mileage and liked the lower RPM torque increase. 

I am really interested to see how the stock cam with stock valves feels in my rebuild now.  The numbers are very good with a nice peak torque right where I mostly drive on the freeway – between 75 and 80 MPH.  So…. it shouldn’t be surprising that those little Japanese Toyota engineers have designed an excellent cam profile that apparently works great in the 22R and 22RE.

When I ordered the parts from engnbldr, I was really curious about the 261C and I had a tight spending budget. I also was relying heavily on engnbldr's historical reputation (that didn't turn out that great for me!).  Today I believe there was more hype that promoted that profile than actual better improved numbers. The 6 degrees of overlap and tight lash may be an issue for an RE’s ECU.

Wow.. hindsight, its good, but it’s often too painful.  :smack:

I would love to have a conversation with Jim, Tim, and Tim, and John about what actual dyno testing (engine or chassis) was done by 22RE Performance, DOA, TCR down in Tucson, and LCE in Lake Havasu City. It’s been years since I talked to CompCam or Schneider.  I’m going to have another conversation with Bill Gentle at Redline, who was grinding engnbldr’s cams and has more or less taken over Ted and Todd’s business.

Gnarls.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 05:07:46 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2020, 02:44:12 AM »
FYI

The Crane cams were used by Toyota as TRD upgrades for the 20R and 22R(E).


Gnarly, have you tried advancing or retarding any of the cams?
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2020, 04:52:58 AM »
FYI

The Crane cams were used by Toyota as TRD upgrades for the 20R and 22R(E).


Gnarly, have you tried advancing or retarding any of the cams?

Hey e…

Yes, did you see the Crane cams on the sheet?

For each cam I tested, I changed cam timing 1 thru 4 degrees advanced and then retarded.  After each change in cam timing, I can immediately see the calculated results.  The results are very often very surprising.  I did this early on in my research because of multiple threads on “cam timing and degreeing” that I read on several forums.

The “cam card” for each cam provided by the grinder should spec the intake centerline, which effects where the intake lobe is in relation to where the piston is when its at top dead center.  One thing that always irritates me is most published cam specs DO NOT list the Intake Centerline!  This can be changed with a degree wheel. Changing an intake centerline by advancing it will affect the overlap.  The degree of overlap in an RE seems to be critical.  You can increase the lower RPM torque, but you have to be very careful because you also effect fuel mileage and emissions.  The ECU is receiving “data” on the Air/Fuel Ratio.

This is why I say that the camshaft is a very “mysterious” part in engine performance.  Each change, either dynamically, like degreeing, changing valve lash, or statically, like the Lobe Separation Angle, which is designed and ground into the profile, can be subtle or dramatic.

So, unless you really know what you are doing, and perhaps have lots of experience and lots of instruments (and I don’t), for example – just buying a degree wheel from LCE, watching their video and start degreeing your cam, you might or might not realize what the effect is going to be. Advancing and retarding cam timing increases or decreases the piston to valve clearance, so you have to be careful, especially on rebuild with a new head and valves.  I’m not suggesting you that you shouldn’t experiment, but just be aware that typically the cam grinder will spec the “recommended” cam timing.

I know H8PVMNT did some degreeing of his cams and not surprising, advancing the cam timing did not give him the best throttle response.

On TRD cams, apparently no longer available, I have read that they were Crane cams.  I have all the published TRD cam specs.  I could dig into my "cam library files", and compare them.  I haven't looked at those for quite awhile.

Gnarls.  :blah:



« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 03:25:37 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2020, 05:16:21 AM »
Beat the crap out of my buddies engine today with the Holley sniper some what tuned . Still needs a little more tuning . Made 163 hp and 179lbs of torque. Those are some good numbers. Head is my cnc ported stage 4 head with a 272 -262 cam. 10 to 1 compression.
That was from Jim Putney yesterday..
Even the most primitive society, has an intimate respect for the insane.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2020, 05:34:17 AM »
Beat the crap out of my buddies engine today with the Holley sniper some what tuned . Still needs a little more tuning . Made 163 hp and 179lbs of torque. Those are some good numbers. Head is my cnc ported stage 4 head with a 272 -262 cam. 10 to 1 compression.
That was from Jim Putney yesterday..

Holy Crapity!!!  I WANT ONE!!!  :willynilly:

Gnarls.  :yikes:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2020, 12:46:10 PM »
So many other cam grinders out there. I've used WEB cams in other engines. Curious about a couple of their grinds for the 22R/E. What do you think about their 94, 94a and 391 grinds?

 http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages_vehicles/automobile/toyota/982.html
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2020, 01:30:37 PM »
So many other cam grinders out there. I've used WEB cams in other engines. Curious about a couple of their grinds for the 22R/E. What do you think about their 94, 94a and 391 grinds?

 http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages_vehicles/automobile/toyota/982.html

deucie… I probably ran those way back.  I will plug in their number and see what they look like. 

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2020, 01:56:56 PM »
So many other cam grinders out there. I've used WEB cams in other engines. Curious about a couple of their grinds for the 22R/E. What do you think about their 94, 94a and 391 grinds?

 http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages_vehicles/automobile/toyota/982.html

OK here's just 1 RPM range - 1800 thru 5400 in 400 RPM increments:

Pk Tq - 153 @ 3000
Pk HP - 114 @ 4600 and 5000 - low HP
Avg Tq - 134
Avg HP - 90.4

That cam is 8 degrees advanced cam timing!!

At 4 degrees advanced:
Pk Tq - 154 @ 3000
Pk HP - 120 @ 5000
Avg Tq - 136
Avg HP - 92.4

At zero degrees cam timing:

Pk Tq - 155 @ 3000
Pk HP - 124 @ 5000
Avg Tq - 138
Avg HP - 93.6

At 1 degree retarded cam timing:

Pk Tq - 155 @ 3000
Pk HP - 125 @ 5000
Avg Tq - 138
Avg HP - 93.9

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2020, 02:38:49 PM »
OK here's just 1 RPM range - 1800 thru 5400 in 400 RPM increments:

Pk Tq - 153 @ 3000
Pk HP - 114 @ 4600 and 5000 - low HP
Avg Tq - 134
Avg HP - 90.4

That cam is 8 degrees advanced cam timing!!

At 4 degrees advanced:
Pk Tq - 154 @ 3000
Pk HP - 120 @ 5000
Avg Tq - 136
Avg HP - 92.4

At zero degrees cam timing:

Pk Tq - 155 @ 3000
Pk HP - 124 @ 5000
Avg Tq - 138
Avg HP - 93.6

At 1 degree retarded cam timing:

Pk Tq - 155 @ 3000
Pk HP - 125 @ 5000
Avg Tq - 138
Avg HP - 93.9

Gnarls.


I'd love to talk to the grinder on this cam.  I'm curious about this profile for 22R.

First,8 degrees cam advance looks too much.  It will raise the cylinder pressure and theoretical Cranking Compression to 195 psi.  You'd probably have to burn high octane gas.  For a static Compression Ratio of 9.4, the high cylinder pressure caused by the low duration numbers may cause pre-ignition - ignition timing may be tricky to get right in an ECU controlled RE.

And, at 8 degrees advance cam timing, I'd be concerned about *possible* piston/valve clearance.

Just think'n out loud.   :blah:

Gnarls.  :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2020, 02:55:21 PM »
WEB Cam - 95a

OK here's just 1 RPM range - 1800 thru 5400 in 400 RPM increments:

Pk Tq - 153 @ 3000
Pk HP - 118 @ 5000
Avg Tq - 135
Avg HP - 91.2
Theoretical Cranking Compression - 185 PSI

That cam is 8.8 degrees advanced cam timing!!

At 0 degrees advanced:
Pk Tq - 155 @ 3000-3400
Pk HP - 132 @ 5400
Avg Tq - 138
Avg HP - 94.6

Theoretical Cranking Compression - 166 PSI


Gnarls.


1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2020, 03:54:45 PM »
WEB Cam - 391

OK here's just 1 RPM range - 1800 thru 5400 in 400 RPM increments:

Pk Tq - 154 @ 3000
Pk HP - 138 @ 5400
Avg Tq - 135
Avg HP - 93.3
9.4 Overlap - very high - I doubt that a stock 22RE ECU will manage that much overlap
Theoretical Cranking Compression - 161 PSI

That cam is 8.0 degrees advanced cam timing!!

At 0 degrees advanced:
Pk Tq - 157 @ 3400
Pk HP - 138 @ 5400
Avg Tq - 134
Avg HP - 93.6
9.4 degrees of Overlap - very high
Theoretical Cranking Compression - 143 PSI


Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2020, 12:46:22 PM »
Surprised you didn't notice the 94a has the same spec as LCs EFI pro cam.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2020, 03:09:00 PM »
Surprised you didn't notice the 94a has the same spec as LCs EFI pro cam.


Thanks for pointing that out.  Way too many cam specs to remember unless I'm actively doing comparisons.

So LCE buys, or has WEB grind their cams?  LCE has an engine dyno, I wonder if they actually did testing on this cam.... or they relied on WEB's dyno tests?


Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2020, 03:21:43 PM »
The Schneider 210/216 really has my interest.  It produces the torque where I want it.
 
The peak HP is right up with the highest numbers, but it is a tad out on the end of the RPM range.

Now that my head is ARP’d with studs, I am really thinking about that cam and doing simple cam swap!

Gnarls
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2020, 04:57:00 PM »
Thanks for pointing that out.  Way too many cam specs to remember unless I'm actively doing comparisons.

So LCE buys, or has WEB grind their cams?  LCE has an engine dyno, I wonder if they actually did testing on this cam.... or they relied on WEB's dyno tests?


Gnarls.

I'm wondering if WEB Cams and LC are in cahoots? Maybe WEB grinds cams for LC.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2020, 04:58:47 PM »
No such thing as an easy anything swap.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2020, 01:32:33 AM »
No such thing as an easy anything swap.


I agree.

What I meant by "simply" is that now I have the head bolted down to the block with ARP studs, when I remove the nuts to remove the rocker rack and the camshaft, I should be able to do a swap without disturbing the head and head gasket.  I've never done it myself, but know it's done with race engines all the time.

I wish I could see some of those "swap" results during dyno testing on XYZ's camshaft for a 22!! :thumbs:

Hopefully I can successfully do a cam swap without moving the head.  :crossed:

Gnarls.  :gap:

« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 01:53:29 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2020, 04:42:57 PM »
Either buy or make a tool to compress or keep the tensioner compressed so you're not fighting it when you replace the cam sprocket. I have one in my garage, or storage somewhere. Simple to do, just cut a piece of wood wide enough to fit snugly or give a little push in the chain.

I have the Schneider 250-60F in my garage, or storage somewhere, and hopefully LC headers and cat back are on their way. So maybe in a month I'll be doing a cam swap as well. Sad thing is I'm going to take off the head to see how the last guy put this engine together. At stock timing I get detonation with 89 octane fuel and an occasional tick with 91. I believe the squish gap is excessive. I might need to use a thinner gasket.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2020, 06:38:12 PM »
. At stock timing I get detonation with 89 octane fuel and an occasional tick with 91. I believe the squish gap is excessive. I might need to use a thinner gasket.

I may be confused... anything is possible now at my age....

I thought if the squish gap is too small that it may cause detonation?

If you are pinging, wouldn't you want to make the squish gap larger... THICKER gasket???

Too much quench can cause detonation.  But doesn't a smaller quench area raise the static compression ratio?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 06:52:51 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2020, 11:50:18 AM »
I may be confused... anything is possible now at my age....

I thought if the squish gap is too small that it may cause detonation?

If you are pinging, wouldn't you want to make the squish gap larger... THICKER gasket???

Too much quench can cause detonation.  But doesn't a smaller quench area raise the static compression ratio?

Gnarls.

You're thinking compression. Excessive gap can be a cause for preignition. Too little gap and the piston and head try to become one. With a 22R I try not to have a gap more than 1mm or .040" no less than .75mm or .030". Anything over 1.mm or .060" starts to cause issues. You'd be surprised.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2020, 07:51:19 PM »
Hey deucie,

My piston to deck is .008".  The head gasket in compressed thickness what be what... .015" or .020"?

What is my squish gap?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2020, 10:28:21 PM »
.015-.020" gasket? Where'd you get that thin thing? Piston to deck means below the deck? If so,

                                                       .008"
                                                    +.015"
                                                      .023"

That's a squish, or piston to head clearance of 23 thousandths. If you were building an engine that you knew the max operating temp, expansion coefficient, and deflection/stretch of the crank, pistons and rods you could calculate everything to the gnats ass and build to a .000" gap.

I believe the compressed thickness of the stock 22R head gasket is either .050" or .060", so unless you have an aftermarket gasket your gap would be quite a bit more than .023".
 
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2020, 05:08:02 AM »
.015-.020" gasket? Where'd you get that thin thing? Piston to deck means below the deck? If so,

                                                       .008"
                                                    +.015"
                                                      .023"

That's a squish, or piston to head clearance of 23 thousandths. If you were building an engine that you knew the max operating temp, expansion coefficient, and deflection/stretch of the crank, pistons and rods you could calculate everything to the gnats ass and build to a .000" gap.

I believe the compressed thickness of the stock 22R head gasket is either .050" or .060", so unless you have an aftermarket gasket your gap would be quite a bit more than .023".
 

Hey deucie,

I couldn't remember when I was posting my question what the thickness is of the Toyota factory head gasket I installed, so I just pulled a number out of my lower anal cavity.... and you know what happens.

I torqued my head to 75 lbs. ("foot pounds" if Lewis is reading this!)

I've read different data on gasket compress factors, of course it depends on the material and load.

The thickness of the DNJ gasket that I pulled from engine to rebuild the head is about .087!!  But there are two factors to gaskets under compression loads - elastic and plastic deformation.  Elastic is temporary, plastic is permanent.  Since that DNJ gasket has been removed from my engine almost a year, there must be some elastic factor?

The brand new Fel-Pro I have is:  .060" at the end and .069" measuring the fire ring. 

I'm guessing that a 30% compressed factor is a reasonable number without specs from the manufacturer.

So the Fel-Pro, which looked very similar to the Toyota factory head gasket I installed, would be about .040" at compressed mode.

Does that sound about right?

The top of the pistons sits .008" below the my block deck.

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 03:31:29 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2020, 01:55:44 PM »
Sounds about right. I pulled a factory gasket that measured .062" after sitting in an engine for 20some years. Again, you need to know what the manufacturer designed the gasket to do. I have a couple of MLS gaskets that were brought to me to install in builds that are 1.2mm (.060")compressed that I couldn't use in those builds. I would use them if the pistons poked up .010"-020" if I needed.

Never guess what percentage your gasket compresses to. Always check the manufacturer specs. As materials get better or worse that spec will change.

Keep in mind a difference of .010" can make or break an engine's performance and a gap of -.001" can just break an engine.

Lewis would be right in being finicky about that 75 lbs as the distance at which that force is applied is important. I mean, is it 75 lbs at a foot or 6 inches or 6 feet. Makes a difference. But for those that just assume it's at 1 foot...… Eh.
Yep, just proper to say foot pounds when specifying torque.

Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2020, 01:01:49 AM »

Lewis would be right in being finicky about that 75 lbs as the distance at which that force is applied is important. I mean, is it 75 lbs at a foot or 6 inches or 6 feet. Makes a difference. But for those that just assume it's at 1 foot...… Eh.
Yep, just proper to say foot pounds when specifying torque.


Bravo Sierra. :reg:

After being around automobiles, go-karts, sand rails, drag racing, 4-wheeling for most of my life.  My dad was an auto mechanic and by the age of 10 I could pick out every tool in his tool box when he asked for it.  By age 5, I could name the manufacturer of every car in out town.  In all my years, I never once had anyone ask "How many feet are you torqueing your bolt?" when discussing or describing a torque spec for a head bolt.  I don't recall ever seeing or reading any torque spec for head bolt on a 22RE other than FOOT POUNDS.  :dunno:

Lewis may be suffering from atelophobia, laced with a tad of NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder).  His posts almost always have a "police" presence.  :therethere:

Lewis.....  :smooch:

Gnarls.  :gap:
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 01:09:40 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Lewis Hein

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2020, 06:58:24 AM »
Three comments:

I don't recall ever seeing or reading any torque spec for head bolt on a 22RE other than FOOT POUNDS.  :dunno:
1) I think a couple posts back somebody gave a torque spec in "pounds" :hammerhead:

2) I have a Daihatsu Rocky, the ultimate police vehicle :gap:

3) My head is bolted on to the proper torque specs, and has a better cam that is more advanced :therethere:

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2020, 10:58:33 AM »
Bravo Sierra. :reg:

After being around automobiles, go-karts, sand rails, drag racing, 4-wheeling for most of my life.  My dad was an auto mechanic and by the age of 10 I could pick out every tool in his tool box when he asked for it.  By age 5, I could name the manufacturer of every car in out town.  In all my years, I never once had anyone ask "How many feet are you torqueing your bolt?" when discussing or describing a torque spec for a head bolt.  I don't recall ever seeing or reading any torque spec for head bolt on a 22RE other than FOOT POUNDS.  :dunno:

Lewis may be suffering from atelophobia, laced with a tad of NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder).  His posts almost always have a "police" presence.  :therethere:

Lewis.....  :smooch:

Gnarls.  :gap:


You are right, torque is generally accepted in foot pounds, but just stating pounds doesn't give the proper info. Ever hear of INCH pounds? it's used VERY frequently. If you've been around anything mechanical your whole life you would know pounds are specified in inch and foot. Get the two mixed up and things FAIL! Either way. So go ahead and torque your head bolts to 75 pounds (inch) and see how long that lasts. It IS a pertinent piece of spec information. Any mechanic worth his weight in  :reg: knows the difference. It's not B.S.

Might as well just tighten all your bolts with a ratchet, there, feels tight.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

sirdeuce

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Re: CAMSHAFT COMPARISONS FOR THE 22RE
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2020, 11:06:56 AM »
My favorite torque spec went something like this...…. support the prop and using a 6' long bar tighten nut  to xxx and while loaded give the bar 2 wraps with a 2lb hammer. You may not have ever seen anything like it, but it's out there.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

 
 
 
 
 

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