Author Topic: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem  (Read 614 times)

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87Fontana

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95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« on: Mar 10, 2020, 05:11:56 PM »
I have been chasing a hot start problem for months that I cannot figure out. I bought this 4Runner last summer from a guy in Arizona.  It had a rebuilt 22re motor in it, was missing all of the smog components.  Since I owned it I have done the following: New EGR valve, new catalytic converter, new exhaust from cat back, replaced AFM meter with a known good one, cleaned IAC valve, replaced PCV valve, new NGK spark plugs, new cap rotor and wires, adjusted TPS, replace vacuum lines with silicone lines from LCE. Made sure vacuum lines were run correctly per vacuum diagram inside of hood on factory sticker.

Somewhere in the middle of changing the above items the hot start problem started.  What happens is I go drive it and after the engine warms up I shut it off.  Let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Try to start it and it barely turns over and dies.  I do this 2-3 times then it eventually starts but is idling so low it barely runs until I rev the gas then it tends to level out.  When I drive it around it runs great with no problems.  When it is cold it start perfectly fine.

Recently I got a fuel pressure gauge and hooked it up through the banjo bolt on the cold start injector.  Below are the readings:

Fuel pressure at cold start = 36psi
Fuel pressure at warm operating temperture = 36psi
While running unplugged vacuum line to FPR and pressure went up to = 42psi
Shut engine off and pressure went to = 39psi

After engine shut off to see if it held pressure
at 5 minutes it was still at 39psi
At 10 minutes it was still at 39psi
at 20 minutes it was still at 39psi
The next morning 15 hours later it went to 0 psi

I was first concerned before I ran this test that maybe I had a fuel injector leaking.  Since it holds pressure that debunks this theory.

Also when it runs if I pull the vacuum line to the FPR the idle slightly increases, which is normal

Really stumped on this one and tired of messing with it.  Does anyone have any ideas? Any help would be appreciated!!

Regards,

Mike
1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #1 on: Mar 10, 2020, 06:02:51 PM »
When its hot...will it fire up on starting fluid.
Even the most primitive society, has an intimate respect for the insane.

87Fontana [OP]

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #2 on: Mar 10, 2020, 06:38:04 PM »
I haven't tried that yet. I figure it is either fuel related or air related. When I do start it and it stumbles and barley runs I can take my finger under the AFM and push the door open and the idles comes up and smooths out.  Is there anyway this can be related to the TPS?  I wondered if it was bad and not signaling the AFM to open properly.???
1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

Gnarly4X

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #3 on: Mar 11, 2020, 02:22:05 AM »
Hey 87Fontana,

When it barely turns over and dies, does it feel like it's not getting enough fuel or too much fuel?  :dunno:

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2020, 02:28:10 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #4 on: Mar 11, 2020, 08:59:14 AM »
I haven't tried that yet. I figure it is either fuel related or air related. When I do start it and it stumbles and barley runs I can take my finger under the AFM and push the door open and the idles comes up and smooths out.  Is there anyway this can be related to the TPS?  I wondered if it was bad and not signaling the AFM to open properly.???

The AFM door opens because the engine is sucking air and pulling the door open, there is nothing to "signal" the AFM to open up. 

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #5 on: Mar 11, 2020, 09:21:29 AM »
Hmmm, I've come across similar issues. One was on a 22RE and it turned out to be the rubber boot on the throttle body had a crack that opened when the engine was hot but not when cold. With that issue though the engine would not idle when warm. Another time this popped up was on one of my MR2s, turned out to be the injector seals were hardened and allowing air to pass (vac leak).
Always check your grounds as well. There are so many issues that come from bad grounds.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

gnob

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #6 on: Mar 11, 2020, 09:28:46 AM »
Check your ECT
hold this. . .

87Fontana [OP]

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #7 on: Mar 11, 2020, 11:50:19 AM »
When it barely runs it feels like it is flooded.  As for the boot to the throttle body I have a brand new one.  Also mine is a 5-speed and does not have an ECT
1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #8 on: Mar 11, 2020, 12:05:52 PM »
Sounds like you have it under control then.  :rolleyes:
hold this. . .

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #9 on: Mar 11, 2020, 01:53:28 PM »
When it barely runs it feels like it is flooded.  As for the boot to the throttle body I have a brand new one.  Also mine is a 5-speed and does not have an ECT

Next time before starting when hot, pull the cold start injector connector off.

How many miles on the injectors?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

87Fontana [OP]

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #10 on: Mar 11, 2020, 08:23:59 PM »
Last week when it was hot I unplugged the cold start injector and the cold start thermal switch.  It still didn't start and the check engine light came on.

Shouldn't unplugging both of those completely prevent the cold start injector from firing?  I contemplated pulling the cold start injector out to see if fuel would come out when hot but figured if it is not plugged in there should be no way of it firing.
1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

sirdeuce

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #11 on: Mar 12, 2020, 08:13:32 AM »
Last week when it was hot I unplugged the cold start injector and the cold start thermal switch.  It still didn't start and the check engine light came on.

Shouldn't unplugging both of those completely prevent the cold start injector from firing?  I contemplated pulling the cold start injector out to see if fuel would come out when hot but figured if it is not plugged in there should be no way of it firing.

If the injector is stuck open or leaking profusely unplugging the electronics would have no effect.
ECT = Engine Coolant Temp sensor.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #12 on: Mar 12, 2020, 08:35:16 AM »
@gnob, Sorry I have heard the Toyota term ECT as Electronic Controlled Transmission. Didn't realize you were talking about the Engine Coolant Temp Sender.  My Bad

@sirdeuce, I did replace the Engine Coolant Temp Sender a few months ago with one I bought from LC Engineering.  Unfortunately it did not resolve the problem.  I recently did a fuel pressure test and it held pressure when shut off for quite awhile.  I ruled out a leaking injector because of that.  What are your thoughts? I contemplated leaving the cold start injector hooked up but pull it out of the plenum slightly to see if it leaks. I also read in another forum a guy that pulled his fuel injection rail out, left the injectors in it, did the fuel pump jumper at the diagnostic port to pressurize it and found a leaking injector.

1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

gnob

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #13 on: Mar 12, 2020, 09:05:37 AM »
Doesn't really sound like a leaking injector to me.
Just because you replaced parts doesn't mean they are good or you don't have a wiring issue somewhere.
Whats the status of the o2?  What does it say is going on?
hold this. . .

87Fontana [OP]

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #14 on: Mar 12, 2020, 09:42:25 AM »
I did replace the O2 with a new Denso one.  I sure hope I am not having a wiring issue as those can be a nightmare to find. I probably need to get my multimeter out and start testing all the sensors.
1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #15 on: Mar 12, 2020, 02:52:46 PM »
The idea of pressurizing the fuel system with the injectors not properly stayed makes me cringe. When you energize the system the pressure could spit out any of those puppies and cause a severe fire hazard. I would not recommend it. I can tell you burn scar tissue never feels right (radiator hose blew up on me), and the idea of bar-b-que is nice, but not when you're the one being cooked.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #16 on: Mar 15, 2020, 04:38:46 AM »
87fontana,

Your posts read like you are doing a lot to diagnose the problem!  :beerchug:

This by far the best detailed description on diagnosing a 22RE issue I’ve seen.

https://22reperformance.com/faq-diagnostic-info

I assume you’ve read this and gone through the testing and adjustments carefully?  :thumbs:

I have played with and re-adjusted my TPS for hours.  The throttle linkage adjustment and the butterfly position inside the throttle body is critical.  :blah:

Have you tried this?.....

When attempting to hot start the engine, turn the ignition switch to the "ON" position, push the gas pedal all the way to the floor and hold it, turn the key to crank the engine.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

RASALIBRE

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #17 on: Mar 15, 2020, 07:56:45 PM »
Resistance check all sensors per fsm hot and cold.
Voltage & resistance check at the ecm via back probing per fsm hot and cold.
Double check for vacuum leaks hot and cold.
Verify proper egr function and egr bvsv function per fsm hot and cold.
Check spark and pick up coil hot and cold per fsm.
Leak down test hot and cold.
Compression check hot and cold.
Many of these tests overlap, but that’s the point.
I suspect the Ne signal will play a part. The wires drape right over the the exhaust manifold then thread through the heat soaked intake manifold and have been there for years. Heat=resistance which is bad for electrical sensors and should show up in the tests above.
The hot and cold leak down test will give you the answer as to anything mechanical.
My :twocents:
« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2020, 08:03:00 PM by RASALIBRE »

Gnarly4X

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #18 on: Mar 16, 2020, 02:09:05 AM »
.... I probably need to get my multimeter out and start testing all the sensors.

I don't know how to check and adjust the TPS without a multimeter.   :dunno:

If you have not done this very carefully, it may be causing a hot start issue.  :thumbs:

I don't recall you stating how many miles on this rebuild.

The hot start problem in my 22R was a blown head gasket.

A leak-down test is a very good test for determining what is going on with each cylinder/rings, valves, and head gasket.

Gnarls. :inthedark:
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2020, 11:56:58 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

87Fontana [OP]

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #19 on: Mar 16, 2020, 11:54:59 AM »
The motor only has 3,000 miles on it. Out of the blue recently is has been consuming oil. I am afraid something has gone wrong with this engine. I think my next test will be the leak down test and compression test.  One of my good friends owns a automotive repair shop and can do this for me
1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

Gnarly4X

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #20 on: Mar 17, 2020, 04:11:39 AM »
Hey 87Fontana,

How much oil is it consuming?

“It had a rebuilt 22re motor in it, was missing all of the smog components.”

How was the engine running when you bought the vehicle?

What exactly do you know about how this engine was rebuilt?  Rebuilding a 22RE without the smog components doesn’t sound like a proper rebuild.

Who’s parts were used for the rebuild?

What head gasket was installed?

Were the injectors rebuilt or new?

Is the camshaft stock or aftermarket?

How was the block machined?

I do not know if the ECU is sophisticated enough to "learn" after changes to it's sensors but.... 

Have you tried disconnecting the battery for an hour, reconnect the battery, drive the vehicle for 30 minutes, and then check for any codes?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2020, 04:26:31 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #21 on: Mar 17, 2020, 10:39:01 AM »
I'm back to an air leak between the AFM and TB. Since you replaced the rubber boot, and I'm guessing the boot on the AFM is good as well, I'm asking about the plastic crossover pipe now. Should ba a pretty old pice of plastic by now. Look for separations in the seams. Think back, did you ever step on or drop the thing? Heat cycles can age that plastic and show the weak spots.

As for the oil consumption, definately a leak down or compression test. Pull the valve cover and check the oil return for blockage. A blocked oil return will cause oil pooling that can be trown around by the rockers and flood the PCV baffles.

If you did any mods that the ECU can't handle that Hot start issue could be a result and that could cause other issues, like detonation, that could damage the pistons and rings.

Just a couple of things to add to the list here...
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

87Fontana [OP]

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #22 on: Mar 21, 2020, 04:42:24 PM »
@sirdeuce
I previously replaced the rubber intake boot at the throttle body.  I also carefully looked for any kind of cracks in the plastic tubing between the throttle body and the AFM and did not find any.

Today I did a basic compression test and the numbers were respectable:

Cylinder 1
Dry 165
Wet 175

Cylinder 2
Dry 175
Wet 185

Cylinder 3
Dry 180
Wet 190

Cylinder 4
Dry 178
Wet 188

I haven't had a chance to do a leak down test yet as I don't have the equipment to do it.  When I have some free time I will take it to my friends shop and do it there.


1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

Gnarly4X

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #23 on: Mar 22, 2020, 02:35:36 AM »
@sirdeuce
I previously replaced the rubber intake boot at the throttle body.  I also carefully looked for any kind of cracks in the plastic tubing between the throttle body and the AFM and did not find any.

Today I did a basic compression test and the numbers were respectable:

Cylinder 1
Dry 165
Wet 175

Cylinder 2
Dry 175
Wet 185

Cylinder 3
Dry 180
Wet 190

Cylinder 4
Dry 178
Wet 188

I haven't had a chance to do a leak down test yet as I don't have the equipment to do it.  When I have some free time I will take it to my friends shop and do it there.




Those readings a good.  My gut says the leakdown test will not show a problem.

A hot start problem is usually an actual over-rich mixture.

Can the ECU get the wrong "data" (voltage) from the sensors report to it? ANSWER:  YES.

What are the voltage readings when you adjusted/checked the TPS?

Have you talked to Jim at 22RE Performance?


Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2020, 03:43:47 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #24 on: Mar 28, 2020, 04:55:12 AM »
 :inthedark:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

87Fontana [OP]

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #25 on: Mar 28, 2020, 10:33:00 AM »
@Gnarls

Sorry Gnarls. I haven't had time to work on the 4Runner lately. I had a major dental problem last week that was partially fixed and then the dentist left me hanging due to the Covid-19 stuff.  I have been in major pain and they closed their office and won't even see me on an emergency basis.  Might be another week or two before I work on it some more.  Hope your doing well and stay safe!  Talk to you soon.
1995 Toyota 4Runner, SAS, 38" Tires, 22RE

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #26 on: Mar 28, 2020, 03:05:24 PM »
@Gnarls

Sorry Gnarls. I haven't had time to work on the 4Runner lately. I had a major dental problem last week that was partially fixed and then the dentist left me hanging due to the Covid-19 stuff.  I have been in major pain and they closed their office and won't even see me on an emergency basis.  Might be another week or two before I work on it some more.  Hope your doing well and stay safe!  Talk to you soon.

Hey 87Fontana,

No apology necessary.

Last week I had a tooth go bad from a recent re-crown.  My dentist was closed except for emergencies.  He referred me to an endodontist to do an emergency root-canal!!  They also were closed except for emergencies.

I called my endodontist and they got me in within 3 hours.

My dentist said to tell them that I am in extreme pain.  I was taking Amoxicillin and 1,000 mg of Tylenol every 4 hours.

My endodontist is a DDS and an MD and he said its better to take 600mg of ibuprofen with 500mg of Tylenol together than 1,000mg of Tylenol.

You should be able to find a dentist that will take you in for emergency treatment!

Sorry you have to go though a dental thing.  I'd rather be dragged through the desert behind snatch strap than have to have a root canal!!  :yikes:

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Mar 29, 2020, 05:25:38 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: 95 4Runner 22RE Hot start problem
« Reply #27 on: Mar 29, 2020, 02:56:46 PM »
@Gnarls

Sorry Gnarls. I haven't had time to work on the 4Runner lately. I had a major dental problem last week that was partially fixed and then the dentist left me hanging due to the Covid-19 stuff.  I have been in major pain and they closed their office and won't even see me on an emergency basis.  Might be another week or two before I work on it some more.  Hope your doing well and stay safe!  Talk to you soon.

Time to get a new dentist and a fifth of Jack.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

 
 
 
 
 

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