Author Topic: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?  (Read 1273 times)

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Gnarly4X

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #30 on: Dec 10, 2019, 03:15:57 AM »
A line-lock can handle the brakes up front, and the parking brake the rear for a Trutrac…..

Hey e...

Can you elaborate on how you manipulate a "line-lock" and "the parking brake" as you concentrate on negotiating a big rock?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
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85Toyotar [OP]

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #31 on: Dec 10, 2019, 05:58:33 AM »
Who sells a Detroit for a 4 cylinder Toyota rear?
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« Last Edit: Dec 13, 2019, 07:41:00 PM by gnob »
hold this. . .

Snowtoy

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #33 on: Dec 10, 2019, 01:00:50 PM »
To each his own.

I prefer to be locked up front and rear.  There is no way I would do any kind off-roading without lockers.  Open diffs is two wheel drive and that will not get you very far on practically any type of off-road terrain other than a flat gravel road.

Yes.... I've witnessed open diff Toyota pickups negotiate a nasty obstacle but not without some horrific wang'n and bang'n and multiple attempts.... too dangerous and too risky for costly damage and unnecessary carnage.

With open diffs in 4-wheel drive the slightest dip in the terrain where one wheel front wheel and one rear wheel is off the ground,  you will just sit and spin tires.  NO BUENO!

I did trail running with open diffs about 1 time and then immediately had a Detroit Locker and Trutrac installed!  I installed lockers in my front and rear in my 85 before doing any trails.

I see why you believe you can't/shouldn't wheel without one.however, every trail out there is doable without lockers, yes, it takes more time, more work involved, and does increase your risk of damage, but it can also be more fun/rewarding depending on your perspective.  In my youth, I was not fazed about how long it took to get through a trail, heck there were trails like Fordyce creek trail, that took us a good 8 hours to go 1.5 miles, and spending 3-4 days wheeling a trail that could be hiked in 1-2 wasn't uncommon for us back then.

Quote
Regarding a hand throttle.... big pain in the arse and can get you in trouble quickly when fiddling with it while attempting to negotiate an obstacle.
Depends on how it is set up, ones attached to the shifter are easy enough to manipulate with just a finger, and you can set them up so that you can't advance the throttle past a certain rpm.

Unfortunately I have seen a solenoid fail on the trail at a MCRoundup. The guy had a CO2 tank and it drained his tank and he couldn't operate either diff after that. It does seems like a rare occurrence.
Would consider this as an "operator" failure, should have had a spare solenoid, and a secondary air source.  For about $150, he could have had both.

Sounds like a sad day  :rivers:
Shouldn't have been, it would have just been a more challenging time on the trail, where he needed to rely on his trail skills, rather than his vehicles capabilities.  A sad day on a trail, is when your rig can't move under its own power, worse, is when you are stuck behind those dead rigs being towed through a trail.
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Gnarly4X

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #34 on: Dec 10, 2019, 06:24:01 PM »
I see why you believe you can't/shouldn't wheel without one.however, every trail out there is doable without lockers, yes, it takes more time, more work involved, and does increase your risk of damage, but it can also be more fun/rewarding depending on your perspective.  In my youth, I was not fazed about how long it took to get through a trail, heck there were trails like Fordyce creek trail, that took us a good 8 hours to go 1.5 miles, and spending 3-4 days wheeling a trail that could be hiked in 1-2 wasn't uncommon for us back then.
 Depends on how it is set up, ones attached to the shifter are easy enough to manipulate with just a finger, and you can set them up so that you can't advance the throttle past a certain rpm.
Would consider this as an "operator" failure, should have had a spare solenoid, and a secondary air source.  For about $150, he could have had both.
Shouldn't have been, it would have just been a more challenging time on the trail, where he needed to rely on his trail skills, rather than his vehicles capabilities.  A sad day on a trail, is when your rig can't move under its own power, worse, is when you are stuck behind those dead rigs being towed through a trail.

Snowtoy….

I can appreciate your experience as an "open-differ". That is how most of us started, at least years ago.

First 4-wheeling, as the majority of the members of this site primarily do, is obviously a matter of personal experience, perspective, and each may have different definitions of "4-wheeling".

I will state categorically and emphatically, I have been on many 4-wheel drive designated or known trails with obstacles that are absolutely NOT negotiable with a open diffs!!  IN FACT, some trails I've been on, some very well-known, there are often vehicles that are locked up front and rear that get stuck multiple times and have to be hi-jacked, winched, precisely spotted off the obstacle.

During my active 4x4 Club days, there were numerous trail runs where the trip leader would state "Only fully locked up vehicles should be on this trip".  Now, there were also a few trail runs that were just bouncy dirt roads and a 4x4 with open diffs would probably not have any serious issues.  Here in AZ 95% of the trails are rock crawling, with the other 5% a mix of mud running, snow runs, and sand dunes.

Taking a 4x4 with open diffs and thrashing and bashing it is just silly, if not stupid, dangerous, and expensive.  There are trails that are fun with open diffs.  But for me 4-wheeling with open diffs is like snow skiing with one ski and one ski pole.  :yikes:

Your definition of “operator” failure for an ARB system failure is strange.  If I apply that thinking, then I would have to have in my spare parts action packers every other part on my truck!  Besides even if you carry a spare, it is still for a failure.

Most drivers have X trail skills and X reliance on their vehicle.  Most 4-wheelers I’ve known have some ratio of both.

I’ve wheeled with guys that could not find the right line over an obstacle if the spotter marked it with fluorescent paint.  And, I’ve wheeled with guys that could drive a golf cart over an obstacle.

When your rig can't move under its own power or when you are stuck behind those dead rigs being towed through a trail may not be sad, but it is surely not a fun day.

4-wheeling to me is like toilet paper..... lots of choices, pick whatever feels good to you!  :biggthumpup:

Gnarls.  :blah:

« Last Edit: Dec 10, 2019, 06:41:59 PM by Gnarly4X »
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #35 on: Dec 10, 2019, 06:41:07 PM »
Hey e...

Can you elaborate on how you manipulate a "line-lock" and "the parking brake" as you concentrate on negotiating a big rock?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:


The trutrac has a ratio (4:1,3:1,...) of what it can apply torquewise to the high traction side compared to the low traction side.

Say it's 4:1.       The low traction side slips at 100 ftlbs.      Up to 400 ftlbs can be applied to the high traction side.  (until high traction side slips)

When a wheel goes airborne, low traction side is 0 ftlbs, 0*4 = 0 to high traction side.

With line lock and parking brake you're applying what looks like traction torque to the airborne tire.    Torque will still go to other tire.


With double low, you have so much torque available,   brake drag isn't a factor.


So you set and forget with line lock or parking brake.      You do however lose some torque due to brake drag.
Ed
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #36 on: Dec 10, 2019, 07:10:22 PM »
I've been wheelin' my 85 Xtra-cab since '97 with open diffs all over the place just for the challenge and enjoyment of real skills.  My old square-body Chev 3/4 ton had a detroit rear and a Tru-trac front, loved the True-trac.  Had the True-trac first and it got me through some serious trails.  When I finally Munched my stock Toy diffs I put a Tru-trac in the front and a Grizzly locker in the back.  I was disappointed in the Tru-trac at first.  I was using some super slicky-juice in the diff to keep the gears happy, wouldn't bind internally properly?  Flushed all that out after I remembered I only used off-the-shelf gear oil in my Chev with NO problems over 120k and it worked like a champ.  I've since switched out to off-the-shelf for my Tru-trac and it's working Tits!  Most people that give Tru-tracs a bad name either haven't used one, used the wrong gear oil in them or expected them to be a true locker.  They are and always have been just a Damn Good Limited Slip.   The one thing that these auto-locker fans haven't told you is that it's better to have your diffs open when Side-hilling ( driving at an angle to the rise of the hill ).  Just my 4 cents.
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Gnarly4X

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #37 on: Dec 11, 2019, 02:31:03 AM »
The one thing that these auto-locker fans haven't told you is that it's better to have your diffs open when Side-hilling ( driving at an angle to the rise of the hill ).  Just my 4 cents.

Hey Slabzilla….

Again, there are lots of different perspectives and experiences.

Most people here would agree that real 4-wheeling is just that – 4 wheels driving with power and traction.

In a 4x4, on a typical trail, an open differential equipped vehicle is a 2-wheel drive - 2 wheels driving with power and torque most of the time. In my trucks, with open diffs, it is the right rear and left front when it's in 4-wheel drive.

If the objective is to drive the vehicle from point A to point B, given any typical or atypical off-road or 4-wheel drive required trail or terrain, there is virtually NO terrain or trail that a 2-wheel drive open differential is better. PERIOD. 

Now…. There are many different terrain conditions and situations where the vehicle cannot maintain traction or positive direction.  Under power, a locked axle will apply torque to each tire providing traction to move forward.  Due to gravity, a vehicle on a sidehill will always loose traction on the uphill side. 

With an open diff, will the tire on the downhill side receive the torque?

If you cannot negotiate and drive a fully locked up vehicle forward on a sidehill condition, you will have NO better ability to negotiate the vehicle and drive forward with open diffs!

I understand where Slabzilla's comment comes from.  A locked up front or rear diff will tend to make the tires break loose under too much torque.   If you can’t control your right foot on the gas pedal on a sidehill, you probably should not be driving on it.

In what 4-wheeling terrain condition or vehicle situation is having LESS traction better?  :dunno:

That's just my 2 cents.  :thumbs:

Gnarls.  :gap:



« Last Edit: Dec 11, 2019, 03:31:24 AM by Gnarly4X »
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85Toyotar [OP]

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #38 on: Dec 13, 2019, 06:28:28 PM »

You aren't really this helpless?



https://www.marlincrawler.com/differential/locker/detroit-locker
When it says meant to fit "1995-04 Tacoma, 1996-02 4Runner" and "2003+ 4Runner, 2005+ Tacoma, 2007+ FJ Cruiser" on the store page, I dont expect it to fit in a 4 Cylinder 8 inch diff for a 1985 Pickup. Either way, both of those are out of stock.
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hold this. . .

Gnarly4X

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #41 on: Dec 14, 2019, 05:55:54 PM »
I live in north-central Montana and we have snowy and icy road conditions for 5-6 months of the year.  I run a spool in the rear and an aussie locker up front.  Full on lockers work fine in winter road conditions, you just have to learn how to drive with them.  It's true that you can get the rear end out as quick as you want, but when you let off the throttle it snaps you back straight just as fast.  In this way you almost have more control on the ice than with an open diff. I find them very predictable. You just have to know what to expect.

It's certainly true that the spool eats tires.  My ideal would be a Detroit locker in the rear and another Detroit or an aussie locker up front.  We rana full Detroit in a 4runner and I found it very predictable and even easy on tires as long as you drove it right.  I have found the aussie locker to be the smoothest of the "lunchbox lockers".

I might maybe consider a Toyota e-locker in the rear since it acts like it's not there when it's off and acts like a spool when it's on.  I am still leery of anything you can turn off though.  I have been out with lots of guys with the air lockers and have seen them quit locking miles deep into a trail.
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85Toyotar [OP]

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #42 on: Dec 15, 2019, 01:34:41 PM »
I live in north-central Montana and we have snowy and icy road conditions for 5-6 months of the year.  I run a spool in the rear and an aussie locker up front.  Full on lockers work fine in winter road conditions, you just have to learn how to drive with them.  It's true that you can get the rear end out as quick as you want, but when you let off the throttle it snaps you back straight just as fast.  In this way you almost have more control on the ice than with an open diff. I find them very predictable. You just have to know what to expect.

It's certainly true that the spool eats tires.  My ideal would be a Detroit locker in the rear and another Detroit or an aussie locker up front.  We rana full Detroit in a 4runner and I found it very predictable and even easy on tires as long as you drove it right.  I have found the aussie locker to be the smoothest of the "lunchbox lockers".

I might maybe consider a Toyota e-locker in the rear since it acts like it's not there when it's off and acts like a spool when it's on.  I am still leery of anything you can turn off though.  I have been out with lots of guys with the air lockers and have seen them quit locking miles deep into a trail.

I could probably buy a whole different rig in OK shape and get it running for cheaper than the cost of a Toyota Electric Locker  :rofl2: Those suckers are expensive hahaha. I am thinking a detroit is probably the way to go considering how reliable everyone says it is. Has anyone had any experience with the Grizzly lockers? Isn't the grizzly almost an exact copy of the detroits? Have read that the grizzly can be a bit weak compared to a detroit.
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #43 on: Dec 15, 2019, 04:10:33 PM »
I could probably buy a whole different rig in OK shape and get it running for cheaper than the cost of a Toyota Electric Locker  :rofl2: Those suckers are expensive hahaha. 

The e-lockers can be had for less than most other lockers considering they can be found in a wrecking yard. A simple DPDT switch is all that is needed to operate them.
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #44 on: Dec 15, 2019, 04:14:26 PM »
I could probably buy a whole different rig in OK shape and get it running for cheaper than the cost of a Toyota Electric Locker  :rofl2: Those suckers are expensive hahaha. I am thinking a detroit is probably the way to go considering how reliable everyone says it is. Has anyone had any experience with the Grizzly lockers? Isn't the grizzly almost an exact copy of the detroits? Have read that the grizzly can be a bit weak compared to a detroit.

You have stock gears right? $400-$600 should get you a complete elocker diff. 
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #45 on: Dec 15, 2019, 04:28:34 PM »
I live in north-central Montana and we have snowy and icy road conditions for 5-6 months of the year.  I run a spool in the rear and an aussie locker up front.  Full on lockers work fine in winter road conditions, you just have to learn how to drive with them.  It's true that you can get the rear end out as quick as you want, but when you let off the throttle it snaps you back straight just as fast.  In this way you almost have more control on the ice than with an open diff. I find them very predictable. You just have to know what to expect.

It's certainly true that the spool eats tires.  My ideal would be a Detroit locker in the rear and another Detroit or an aussie locker up front.  We rana full Detroit in a 4runner and I found it very predictable and even easy on tires as long as you drove it right.  I have found the aussie locker to be the smoothest of the "lunchbox lockers".

I might maybe consider a Toyota e-locker in the rear since it acts like it's not there when it's off and acts like a spool when it's on.  I am still leery of anything you can turn off though.  I have been out with lots of guys with the air lockers and have seen them quit locking miles deep into a trail.

My rear spool has treated me well also. Tire wear hasnt even been an issue for me, though I never carry much of a load.  Very accurate description of how they behave in the snow/ice.  I wouldnt recommend one for a long term daily driver but spools definitely get a bad rap
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #46 on: Dec 15, 2019, 06:35:07 PM »
On e-lockers…..

I don’t know the actual or typical reliability of an e-locker installed on the type of 4x4s that I’ve known.  :dunno:

Here in AZ, we wheeled in everything. Water crossings were not uncommon.  Just looking at that video, and thinking about electricity connected to my differential and crossing a 2 feet deep river, I’d be really concerned about water shorting out something.  For me, buying an e-locker out of a boneyard would be even more concerning about the actual reliability.  I knew of several guys running ARBs and having failures. I didn’t know anyone running an e-locker.  :blah:

Gnarls.  :gap:
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #47 on: Dec 15, 2019, 07:35:06 PM »
On e-lockers…..

I don’t know the actual or typical reliability of an e-locker installed on the type of 4x4s that I’ve known.  :dunno:

Here in AZ, we wheeled in everything. Water crossings were not uncommon.  Just looking at that video, and thinking about electricity connected to my differential and crossing a 2 feet deep river, I’d be really concerned about water shorting out something.  For me, buying an e-locker out of a boneyard would be even more concerning about the actual reliability.  I knew of several guys running ARBs and having failures. I didn’t know anyone running an e-locker.  :blah:

Gnarls.  :gap:


I think the whole reliability debate is kinda overdone. Elockers and arb's are well proven. Yes, they can fail, nothing is perfect. Be prepaired to fix them in a jam. One thing the elocker has going for it in the reliability department is that it can be engaged/disengaged  manually if need be.  The only elocker I have had hands on experience with is in a stock truck. It hasnt been under two feet of water but I think elockers do ok with water. I dont think you want to engage / disengage them while under water though.
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #48 on: Dec 15, 2019, 09:35:47 PM »
Friends who have ran e-lockers, have had no issue with deep water crossings, nor muddy or snow conditions.
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #49 on: Dec 16, 2019, 05:29:27 PM »
Friends who have ran e-lockers, have had no issue with deep water crossings, nor muddy or snow conditions.

I think the whole reliability debate is kinda overdone. Elockers and arb's are well proven.

I do think that sometimes more common discussions on reliability can get deep.  BUT.. the LACK of RELIABILITY can be very costly in a 4-wheel drive set up for serious wheeling – no matter the terrain.

I believe there is enough historical and current evidence of the difference in cost, reliability, and strength between an ARB and an ELocker to make my decision to go with a well-proven and less risky option to choose the old Detroit Locker in the rear diff, and Marlin’s favorite lunch box locker for the front.

Here's an interesting overview of the diff options – with pros & cons.

https://www.fourwheeler.com/product-reviews/1506-pros-and-cons-of-different-differentials-making-traction/

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Dec 16, 2019, 05:36:53 PM by Gnarly4X »
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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #50 on: Dec 21, 2019, 10:18:24 AM »
I think the whole reliability debate is kinda overdone. Elockers and arb's are well proven. Yes, they can fail, nothing is perfect. Be prepaired to fix them in a jam. One thing the elocker has going for it in the reliability department is that it can be engaged/disengaged  manually if need be.  The only elocker I have had hands on experience with is in a stock truck. It hasnt been under two feet of water but I think elockers do ok with water. I dont think you want to engage / disengage them while under water though.

I agree. And even if the locker fails you still have 4WD, so with clever driving and braking a similar result can be achieved. I have run the entire rubicon trail in reverse in my 4runner with 31 inch tires and open differentials front and rear.
-1987 SR5 4runner, 1KZ-t turbo diesel with custom 3" S.S. dump pipe, R-151f transmission, marlin dual ultimate transfer cases w/ triple shifter, SAS, 35's https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98969.0
-1984 SR5 Tercel 4wd wagon bone stock - given to my nephew https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100547.0
-1:10 scale RC 4wd crawler w/yota axles, R2 2 speed enclosed dig tranny and 1st gen 4Runner body by BigBird
-My front axle service write-up http://board.marlincrawler.com/i

85Toyotar [OP]

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #51 on: Dec 21, 2019, 10:23:04 AM »
I agree. And even if the locker fails you still have 4WD, so with clever driving and braking a similar result can be achieved. I have run the entire rubicon trail in reverse in my 4runner with 31 inch tires and open differentials front and rear.
May I ask why take the time to do the whole thing in reverse? :headscratch:
Blue 85' Toyota Pickup 22r

helipilot77

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #52 on: Dec 21, 2019, 10:26:03 AM »
May I ask why take the time to do the whole thing in reverse? :headscratch:

 :ha_ha:
It  just means starting from the Tahoe side.
-1987 SR5 4runner, 1KZ-t turbo diesel with custom 3" S.S. dump pipe, R-151f transmission, marlin dual ultimate transfer cases w/ triple shifter, SAS, 35's https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98969.0
-1984 SR5 Tercel 4wd wagon bone stock - given to my nephew https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100547.0
-1:10 scale RC 4wd crawler w/yota axles, R2 2 speed enclosed dig tranny and 1st gen 4Runner body by BigBird
-My front axle service write-up http://board.marlincrawler.com/i

85Toyotar [OP]

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Re: LSD, Lockers, whatre my options?
« Reply #53 on: Dec 21, 2019, 10:31:03 AM »
:ha_ha:
It  just means starting from the Tahoe side.
That tells you my knowledge of popular trails :hahaha:
Never wheeled out of WA before
Blue 85' Toyota Pickup 22r

 
 
 
 
 

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