Topic: 86 4runner body on 85 4Runner frame

[Kipper]

Hello, I'm new to the group and hoping to gain some knowledge. I'm currently involved in what I initially thought would be a simple body swap between my 1986 daily driver and a 1985 4Runner with a crappy body and no motor. It all sounded so easy to me. Just take the 86 body, put it on the 85 rolling chassis. In years prior, I've done two different motor swaps, nothing fancy just one worn out 22re for another used but not quite so worn out 22re. And not being a professional mechanic and doing the swaps totally by myself, I really amazed myself.
Anyway, fast forward to today, and I'm dealing with suspension/steering issues. When I took the rusted 1985 4Runner body off the frame, I could easily see how sagged the (what Im guessing were factory) leaf springs looked. So I decided to take the old springs off, bust open those packs, and create my own spring pack. I found some springs in the u-pull-it yard from a toyota pickup of similar age. I think the factory spring pack on the front had 4 leaves maybe. The pack I created has 7 leaves. When I put on my newly created leaf springs, I noticed the factory steering was not going to work. So I put a Hi-Steer kit on, and did the IFS steering box swap. When I bolted the springs to the front axle, I noticed two things. First, there was only about a quarter inch of space between my new springs and the new steering tie rod. Second, the angle that the front third member was sitting at, would not allow the front drive shaft to be bolted up. So I figured out that I needed angled shim spacers, ordered a pair and installed those.
With so many leaves in the spring pack I made, plus the addition of an angled shim, the tie rod is now so snug against the topmost spring that steering is impossible. Obviously I need to take out some leaves so that the two pieces can function properly.

My question is this - how much clearance do I need between the leaf spring and the tie rod?

[Kipper [OP]]

A little more info about my build.

1986 Toyota 4Runner SR5 daily driver, I added nothing to it for the years I drove it, save for some 31x10.5 AT tires. It had the IFS and some really worn out shocks. Clocking over 315,000 miles on the odometer now, definitely not all on one motor! I think it had around 145K when I bought it used for $800. It has electric windows, electric doorlocks, the dashmounted extra gauge cluster, sunroof, and a backglass that had come off the regulator and the person I bought it off of had a bunch of folded up cardboard holding the back glass up, so it looked half ass normal. 5 speed manual trans. Tons of fun to drive and like a good Toyota, hard to stop no matter how it gets treated. Although it was a functioning 4wd, it sat so low from old sagging parts that it looked like a 2wd.

1985 Toyota 4runner. No motor, auto trans that I have, but have no need for. Body in fair to poor shape with rust and a thrashed interior. I found this gem in the SE a few years back and purchased it for $500. It was sporting some aftermarket leaf spring shackles, front and rear. Running 33" rubbers. I think it still had the factory leaf springs on it. Running factory steering equipment.

I gave the body a 2" lift when it got swapped.

[toyodaaddict]

You need to post some pictures of what you have going on.

Are you doing ruf? It sounds like you just added a bunch of leafs to a stock front pack? Maybe consider picking up some emu springs and going from there.

To answer your question, there is a little over an inch of clearance, on all my trucks. They get real close at full drop and 7 leafs in a  ruf pack is the max before spring/tie rod clearance becomes an issue. That has been my experience

[Kipper [OP]]

I thought I read something somewhere here, that a person has to have a minimum number of posts, before the ability to add pictures was granted?

[Kipper [OP]]

Shouldn't be that difficult to get my requisite posts in, though.

[Kipper [OP]]

And yes, toyodaaddict, I did add some leaves to the factory pack. If I remember correctly, I used some rear springs I pulled of an 84 Toyota pickup. I've been trying to do this on the cheap, and one thing I've noticed, is that when I change one thing, it tends to affect several other systems.

[Kipper [OP]]

I do have pictures of (most of) what I've done.

[Kipper [OP]]

And I would happily share them.

[Kipper [OP]]

OK. I did some research here, because I had no idea what RUF meant. From what I gleaned here, it means rear up front, yes?
toyodaaddict - I guess this means yes, I am doing ruf, in regards to my front springs. However, I would add that I used the original leaves that hang all the other ones. The donor leaves were not the ones with the eyes for the bushings.

[toyodaaddict]

OK. I did some research here, because I had no idea what RUF meant. From what I gleaned here, it means rear up front, yes?
toyodaaddict - I guess this means yes, I am doing ruf, in regards to my front springs. However, I would add that I used the original leaves that hang all the other ones. The donor leaves were not the ones with the eyes for the bushings.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-truck-4runner/265669-rear-up-front-faq.html
For rears up front, you want to use the main leaf from the rear springs as your main leaf.  It will push the axle forward, give a softer ride and flex better than the shorter stiffer stock front springs.
It is pretty standard to need driveline work after adding lift.  Like you said, change one thing it effects other things.

Another option you might look into is just getting a set of emu springs. They bolt right up and have a great reputation. With the addition of a front hanger and shackles you can fit upto a 35" tire. They will require a longer slip yoke , due to increased suspension travel. And possibly lengthening the shaft. http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/toyota-off-road-parts/79-95-4runner-hilux-pickup/suspension-parts/front-suspension-parts/old-man-emu-leaf-spring-heavy-load-110-240lbs-2-lift-cs009fb.html

[Kipper [OP]]

I looked around here, but I'm still a bit confused about RUF. Is it taking a set of rear Toyota springs, and using them as is for front springs? What about the difference in length? Is relocation of hangers/shackles necessary?

The spring closest to the camera in the first two pictures, is the front spring I took off the 85 chassis. The middle spring is what I got at the junkyard. The farthest spring, is what I created from the two. If I recall correctly, I looked at putting those junkyard (rears) on the front hanger/shackle, but they didn't look like they were gonna fit without a lot of work, so i just cut up the rear leaves, and shuffled them around till I had something that looked good to me.

The third and fourth pics show the front leaf spring shackles that came on the 85.

[toyodaaddict]

You need to read the link I posted to the pirate ruf faq. Generally with ruf, people combined two sets of first or second gen rear springs. Adding a front hanger is not required but is generally a good way to go. Those springs you put together will be stiff as all hell.  The old man emu spring will be a more straightforward install and may be better suited for you depending on your end goal.

[OVRAROK]

https://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_suspension-III.shtml

[Kipper [OP]]

I plan to put a Ford 302 in place of the 22RE I'm currently running, in the near future. That is one reason why I beefed up the front springs to the point that I did, although I think I overdid it, by quite a bit. The 2" body lift was also in preparation for a bigger motor. I may have to go back to the veritable drawing board on the front shocks.

[redneckcustoms13]

In that case I would highly recommend calling alcan spring with the your weights and desires for axle placement and let them build you some packs.

[helipilot77]

I would also recommend running the Old Man Emu springs as toydaaddict said. they are made by ARB and are available with a 200 pound additional capacity. they ride great with about two inches of lift. I put them on my 87' 4runner when I put the heavier diesel in it. They are a cheap ($100 a corner) spring that are bolt in and are great quality.

[Kipper [OP]]

Well, it's been a learning process, that is still a process in action. The springpack I created for the front of my 85 4Runner, will only function with the front driveshaft removed. It looked good to me, with no body on the chassis.When I got things put back together, I measured the driveline angle and came up with a 10 degree shim needed. That angled shim installed, under the springpack I created, was the first time I noticed the clearance problem. I have removed the bottom two leaves, while retaining the angled shim, and barely have room for the tie rod to move over the spring. If I take one more leaf out, numbers wise at least, I'll be back to the same tired pack that I originally started with. The front springpack is nearly flat, but at least I can hook up the front driveshaft, right? Yay!!!!

As much as I don't want to, I may be left with going the OME route. I'm still a bit concerned with that (10 deg) angled leaf spring shim, adding overall height to the pack, right where I don't need it! The geometry of this situation, seems to beg for a lowered front spring hanger, and maybe shorten the rear shackle for the front spring? I will try to add some pics soon.

[Kipper [OP]]

some pictures of the problematic front end

The first pic shows the 10 degree angled leaf spring shim (bolt-on) sitting at the bottom of what is left of my springpack. With it installed, the pinion angle for the front driveline, is awesome, but the springs are getting pinched under the tie rod. Looking at everything, I think I could have used a 7 degree shim and still be able to use the front driveshaft. This smaller shim, should theoretically, give me more clearance where I need it. Alternatively, if I change the angle of the leafsprings, by shortening the shackle at the rear of the spring and dropping the front hanger some, that should do the same thing, correct?

[Kipper [OP]]

https://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_suspension-III.shtml

Are those spacers under the tie rod ends, that I'm looking at?

[toyodaaddict]

It looks to me like you may have ruined your caster angle and caused the tie rod clearance issue, all to avoid having your driveline lengthened.

Lose the shim, lengthen the driveline and if need be add a drop hanger. Forget about shims, spacers, etc.

[Kipper [OP]]

It looks to me like you may have ruined your caster angle and caused the tie rod clearance issue, all to avoid having your driveline lengthened.

Lose the shim, lengthen the driveline and if need be add a drop hanger. Forget about shims, spacers, etc.

I understand the relationship between caster angle and angled shims, and would agree that adding the shim I did, created a bad caster angle. If I remove the shim, it makes for a better caster angle, while also making for a bad pinion angle, which physically prevents me from bolting up the front driveshaft. I don't understand how lengthening the driveshaft has anything to do with the problems I am having.

[helipilot77]

not sure what would prevent you from bolting up the driveshaft once you remove the shim. could you be more specific? It does't look like there is anything in the way.

[Kipper [OP]]

not sure what would prevent you from bolting up the driveshaft once you remove the shim. could you be more specific? It does't look like there is anything in the way.

Initially, I bolted the entire pack to the axle and discovered I could not bolt up the driveshaft. The pinion angle was far enough out of line compared to the driveshaft angle, that mating the two pieces was not possible. Given that I have modified the pack from when I originally tried to hook up the front driveshaft, I cannot say that things won't work now, and tomorrow I will take out the shim and try to bolt everything down. The pack is physically shorter now, so that should help the pinion angle. We'll see what happens.

[helipilot77]

The most critical angle to meet will be your caster angle. If you are using an IFS driveshaft they have less flex on the front joint. You will need to have a custom front driveshaft made if the one you have doesn’t work with the caster angle needed. You might also be able to take the front joint out and clearance the parts with a grinder.

[Kipper [OP]]

The most critical angle to meet will be your caster angle. If you are using an IFS driveshaft they have less flex on the front joint. You will need to have a custom front driveshaft made if the one you have doesn’t work with the caster angle needed. You might also be able to take the front joint out and clearance the parts with a grinder.

Well, I stand corrected. I did remove that 10 degree angled shim from each side today, and, as I expected the tie rod/top of springs clearance issues were resolved, and a proper caster angle was achieved. What I didn't expect was that the pinion angle would prove to be workable now.
At first, with front frame crossmember supported by concrete blocks and the axle hanging with no wheels attached, it looked like the driveshaft would never connect. I decided to put wheels on and let them rest on the ground. Now the driveshaft will bolt up, and spin smoothly.
So I decide to do a quick flex test, and thats where things went south...

Now, I'm no suspension expert, but last time I checked, a negative flex on the leaf springs, is not a good thing. I would go and add one of the two stiff leaves that I removed, but it will probably be snowing again tomorrow, and this is a backyard project.
I'm still a ways from a road test, but I'm getting closer. And for those wondering, I will have a top plate under the u-bolts and on top of the springs, before I do a road test. The flip kit is in the mail now.

And toyodaddict, it does look like a lengthened driveshaft, is in order for this application. Right now, there are no splines showing, but there is scant room to hide them.