Author Topic: 22r valve/cam issues  (Read 1110 times)

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mwhite49

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22r valve/cam issues
« on: Oct 09, 2019, 06:45:16 PM »
I have a lengthy post on the Yota forum about my 82 4x4 engine rebuild. And I need some help with valve issues.
have a lengthy post going on my rebuild. But I'm confused by how my valve job came out. More than one valve adjuster is so short on top you really can't get a lick nut on them. Before the shop most adjusters had the screw slits clearly visible. So something in the valve geometry has changed. Original intakes and 4 OEM exhaust valves that I picked up at my local dealer. Rocker pads are nice with no real wear. Some cam lobes look a bit burnt others are shiny and you can see where the rockers tracked off the lobes about 0.25.
Any help or pointers to check greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Mike

sirdeuce

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #1 on: Oct 13, 2019, 12:00:25 PM »
Did you replace the rocker assembly? I believe the rocker piers are shorter in the later models, could be an issue. If the valve seats were ground excessively it could cause your problem. If the shop ground the valve stems too much it'll cause the same issue. So many things it could be, looks like you need to dissemble things and do some measurements and compare to factory specs. Won't be anything below the head at least. I would suggest NOT using shims or washers to adjust the pier height.

Also, the cam could have been ground with the wrong base circle. Regrounds typically have smaller base circle which would cause the reverse of your problem. Welded and ground or new billet can cause the issue.

Cam timing can be a problem. If the cam is off a tooth or two and you try adjusting by the timing marks on the harmonic balancer, TDC, you'll be off the base circle of the cam.

And one more, similar to cam timing. If the ring, the part that has the timing marks on the balancer, has slipped, your cam timing could be right but TDC can be off. Setting the timing marks at TDC with a slipped balancer would put your cam off closing up the gap.

« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2019, 12:15:08 PM by sirdeuce »
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #2 on: Oct 19, 2019, 02:56:50 PM »
I solved the issue. I measured the cam and compared my reading with the FSM.  My cam was worn out. Not a single lobe was within specs. So I'm now putting in a Redline cam, 268.

sirdeuce

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #3 on: Oct 19, 2019, 07:02:05 PM »
 Make sure you change the rockers as well. I'm sure the existing contact pads are pretty well shot.  Hmph, seems I had the adjusting screw description back wards, I was picturing the valve side as buried in the rocker, not the slotted end.
« Last Edit: Oct 19, 2019, 07:16:03 PM by sirdeuce »
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

emsvitil

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #4 on: Oct 19, 2019, 07:27:09 PM »
Make sure the rocker arm shaft aren't in backwards (it's possible).

The rockers and cam lobes don't get enough oil when they're backwards...…...……….  (20R decades ago)
Ed
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22RE  W56B
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Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #5 on: Oct 20, 2019, 06:54:22 AM »
If the cam is worn that badly, the rockers are probably worn badly.   :yesnod:

As mentioned.... you should consider buying a new rocker rack. :thumbs:

Gnarls. :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #6 on: Nov 05, 2019, 08:19:45 AM »
The New Redline cam cured all the issues. All my rocker pads were ok. I just dressed them up a bit as some of the pads were riding about 0.060 off the pad. Used shims and now all centered where they should be. Getting close to dropping it in the truck.

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #7 on: Nov 05, 2019, 08:33:26 AM »
Now I'm looking for a header. Probably going to use the LCE. That's about the best one from what I can find on header info.

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #8 on: Nov 05, 2019, 09:10:14 AM »
Now I'm looking for a header. Probably going to use the LCE. That's about the best one from what I can find on header info.
Unless Your building a race engine I would strongly recommend getting a tri y design header.
Northwest Offroad or Doug thorly
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
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mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #9 on: Nov 05, 2019, 02:27:57 PM »
The Northwest headers are no more. They sold out of all emmisions headers about 10 days ago. Said they had a big sale 100 off and put they went. They plan on retiring next yea

Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #10 on: Nov 06, 2019, 02:41:08 AM »
Unless Your building a race engine I would strongly recommend getting a tri y design header.
Northwest Offroad or Doug thorly


Hey mwhite49,

I believe it’s well-known that the Doug Thorley tri-y design produces better flow and increased torque where most of us want it – the low to mid RPM range.

The LCE 4-into-1 design is a very quality header, and touted by many Toyota guys.  However the 4-into-1 is known to produce higher power at the high RPM range, sacrificing lower RPM torque.

The Doug Thorley ceramic header is an excellent choice for the 22R, unless, like Bgen said, you are building a race engine and you are looking for increased HP at 5,000+ RPMs most of the time.

By the way... on your Redline 268 cam... the rockers may not be off on the rack.  What may be the issue is the camshaft and inaccurate location of the cam lobes.

What you should be looking at is where the tip of the valve stem sits on the rocker adjustment screw.

 Based upon my EB 261C cam, I have a suspicion that the castings, probably coming from one of the foundries in China, are just very poor.  :dunno:

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Nov 06, 2019, 03:03:35 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #11 on: Nov 06, 2019, 07:40:21 AM »
This 268 cam is the exact same cam enginebuilder sold made by Redine. It's not the cam. My rocker pads were riding off the old cam too. Adjustment screw hits the valve head dead on now. It was not all of the rockers just 3. They line up perfectly now.

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #12 on: Nov 06, 2019, 08:06:12 AM »
On the Thorley header they use a 3/8 flange where LCE uses a 1/2 flange. I thought I had read something about the thicker flanges lasting longer. And some Thorley flanges warping. If your running the Thorley header what do you think of them? Any issues?

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #13 on: Nov 06, 2019, 11:27:48 AM »
I bit the bullet and ordered a Thorley from Utah for 422 + 26 to ship. About the best price out there.
« Last Edit: Nov 06, 2019, 11:37:10 AM by mwhite49 »

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #14 on: Nov 06, 2019, 02:53:45 PM »
I had a thorley tri y on my 85 4runner. Previous owner installed in early 2000s. Never had trouble out of it if that is what your asking.
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Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #15 on: Nov 06, 2019, 06:20:48 PM »
On the Thorley header they use a 3/8 flange where LCE uses a 1/2 flange. I thought I had read something about the thicker flanges lasting longer. And some Thorley flanges warping. If your running the Thorley header what do you think of them? Any issues?

Everyone has a different opinion.  Doug Thorley has been manufacturing headers since 1958.  If a 3/8" header flange was warping, they would have fixed it back in 1958.

I've had 3 Toyota 22R/RE trucks with DT headers and they performed great.

I use only the DT header gasket from Doug Thorley.

I DO NOT use the self-clamping style header nuts!!

I torque the hex nuts to 25 ft lbs.

I check and retorque the header nuts every couple days until they stay torqued.  Some times that takes several hundred miles.

That's just my limited experience.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Nov 06, 2019, 06:26:49 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #16 on: Nov 06, 2019, 10:03:29 PM »
Yeah, 3/8" flanges never gave me headaches.

Torqueing the nuts over and over until they stay torqued is what I recommend. The expansion and contraction from heat cycles "chews" the gasket and retorqueing takes up the slack developed from that. One bad issue though is from bad threads in the head. If the studs have been loose the aluminum gets beaten from the engines vibration and the studs pull easily. Healthy threaded holes can hold the torque but once they get a loose stud the metal fatigues and won't hold much pressure. Same thing goes with collector and downpipe flanges, make several torque passes.

Quick general note on headers.
For low end power/torque, short runners
For upper RPM power, long runners
And tri-y for anything in between
IF your budget is big enough and you want a specific RPM peak then take your time and tune for whatever that may be.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

emsvitil

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #17 on: Nov 07, 2019, 09:43:14 AM »
I've had the stock cast iron manifold warp.

Trying to torque it down only pulls the studs out of the head.


Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #18 on: Nov 07, 2019, 09:47:59 AM »
Almost all of my heads exhaust studs needed to be helicoiled. And I think that was from a warped cast iron manifold. Well I thought I had a deal on the Thorley header but the price on line changed. I have to wait and see. Are Trail Gear headers any good? Prices are not so bad and a nice thick flange.

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #19 on: Nov 07, 2019, 10:08:04 AM »
Have you looked for used? When my 85 got parted out the guy bought the engine and header. He was more happy about the header than the engine.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
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Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #20 on: Nov 07, 2019, 10:26:07 AM »
Almost all of my heads exhaust studs needed to be helicoiled. And I think that was from a warped cast iron manifold. Well I thought I had a deal on the Thorley header but the price on line changed. I have to wait and see. Are Trail Gear headers any good? Prices are not so bad and a nice thick flange.

Buy DT header... it's worth it.

The self-clamping nuts will twist the studs in the head.  The alloy head and the steel studs cause powdering around the threads.  Dissimilar metal and different coefficient expansion. 

Warping a header flange or factory manifold is typically caused by leaks around the gasket.... usually lack of knowing what that sound is!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #21 on: Nov 07, 2019, 10:45:48 AM »
So on whatever brand I end up with don't use self locking nuts. Makes perfect sense to me. Regular nuts with lock washers.

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #22 on: Nov 07, 2019, 11:19:03 AM »
I did find a DT 22r header down south of me. Pitifully welded up flange. If that's how the new ones look I'll pass. It looked as though it was welded on the head side of the flange and then ground, but not ground flat.

Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #23 on: Nov 08, 2019, 11:13:47 AM »
I did find a DT 22r header down south of me. Pitifully welded up flange. If that's how the new ones look I'll pass. It looked as though it was welded on the head side of the flange and then ground, but not ground flat.

It sounds like you would NOT be happy with a Doug Thorley header.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

toyodaaddict

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #24 on: Nov 08, 2019, 12:22:24 PM »
Almost all of my heads exhaust studs needed to be helicoiled. And I think that was from a warped cast iron manifold. Well I thought I had a deal on the Thorley header but the price on line changed. I have to wait and see. Are Trail Gear headers any good? Prices are not so bad and a nice thick flange.

Make sure the brace between the exhaust and bell housing is intact. Eliminating that brace will eventually damage the threads in the head. When I installed my header I made a custom brace due to the factory one no longer being compatible.  I also like to use a flex pipe to be safe.
80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,85 front axle,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     Also 84 toy DD 22R 4.88s,33'' toyo mt'z, marlin clutch,4inch lift/63's, HA drivelines.

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #25 on: Nov 08, 2019, 01:29:16 PM »
Yes my brace is there but I will modify it for the new piping. Thanks.

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #26 on: Nov 08, 2019, 01:33:17 PM »
It sounds like you would NOT be happy with a Doug Thorley header.

Gnarls.
If the New production headers look as bad as the one I saw pictures of your correct. I like parts that fit and function without any extra work.

Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #27 on: Nov 08, 2019, 05:43:11 PM »
If the New production headers look as bad as the one I saw pictures of your correct. I like parts that fit and function without any extra work.

mwhite49,

I have had my share of "concerns" about the construction of DT headers.

Unless you are an exhaust systems design engineer, I think you'd be better educated on the subject of header design and manufacturing if you make a call to Doug Thorley and ask to speak to a design engineer.  I've had multiple conversations with them, and it's very enlightening.  :thumbs:

If Doug Thorley headers were anything other than one of the best and highest quality headers on market, they would have been out of business many years ago.  :yesnod:

Of the "top" header manufacturers in the world, your choices for your engine is very limited.  :D

Gnarls.  :spin:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #28 on: Nov 09, 2019, 12:30:48 PM »
Over the years I've installed several different brands, mostly on other than Toyotas.

On my 3 22s, I've only installed the Doug Thorley tri-y - painted, chrome, and ceramic.

I've installed the steel one and painted them with header paint.

I've installed the nickel/chrome plated ones.

This latest one for my recent 22RE rebuild I bought the DT ceramic coated one. 

It is by far the best header I've every run on any of my engines.

I love the ceramic coating.  You have to be a careful not to scratch it during handling and install, but it stays looking really nice!

If I buy any other header for any other engine it will be a ceramic coated one.  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :blah:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

mwhite49 [OP]

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Re: 22r valve/cam issues
« Reply #29 on: Nov 09, 2019, 01:21:36 PM »
I just checked Thorleys web site. They give military discounts so I'll cal Monday and see how much. I'll post it here when I find out.

 
 
 
 
 

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