Author Topic: Background and a couple of questions about my new 22RE  (Read 285 times)

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Hickory Nut

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Background and a couple of questions about my new 22RE
« on: Sep 10, 2019, 08:52:00 PM »
Background: Mississippi Truck - 1985 Extra Cab 4x4 SR5 with a complete stage 2.5 22RE Performance Long Block installed last year. I added a lot of new install parts...... Intake, Injectors and o rings, Fuel filter, Throttle cable, Throttle Body, TB Sensor, Plugs, Wires, Distributor, Clutch, flywheel, slave cylinder,  (all from 22RE Performance), 3 Row AL Radiator, all new cooling hoses, belts, LCE High amp Alternator the works. I rebuilt the front axle with Marlin Kit, converted Auto Locking Hubs to Manual Locking Hubs (Stock Type) and added a  Short Throw Shifter.... bla, bla, bla, Sorry for all the details.
-  I use the truck for driving around town on the weekends, hunting, mild off road, farm stuff.
-  I purchased a LCE header and cat back exhaust prior to the new long block because I had it on my 87 STD Cab 4x4.
- Would the Doug Thorley header be a better design for my needs? I am not trying to race anyone but want it to move.  I thought I read on here somewhere that the DT design would give me more torque in the lower RPM range.
- I have only driven it on the highway several times and it seems like the RPM's are way too high in 5th gear (65 MPH at 3000+) and it wont go any faster. I am not sure what the gear ratio is now but am running 31x10x15 BFG KO2
- What could cause the truck not to go any faster than 65?
- I know and don't want a race truck but would like to be able to cruise at HWY speed at 70+ when I need to

Any ideas on how to start diagnosing?

I know opinions are like A holes but you guys know way more about this stuff and I would appreciate any input.








Snowtoy

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Will the rpm's continue to increase, and just not your speed, or does engine fall flat after 65mph?

If the diffs have 5.29 gears, with 31's you might top out around 70 speed wise, the higher gearing should be very noticeable thru all the gears, as well as a lot of heat coming through the floor around the trans tunnel at highway speeds.  Had a 2wd w/4.10's and 205's, it would scratch the tires shifting into 3rd, and max out about 75 in 5th, but the a lot of heat would come through the floor at highway speeds.
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2019, 11:38:32 AM by Snowtoy »
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Gnarly4X

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- Would the Doug Thorley header be a better design for my needs?
- What could cause the truck not to go any faster than 65?
Any ideas on how to start diagnosing?



Wow....   you put a big junk of money into that truck!

What is your elevation?

Assuming you have a 5-speed - with 31" tires, in 5th gear, 3,000 RPMs at 65 MPH your R&Ps are 5.29s.

If that is correct, you are way too low geared for your engine's peak torque range.

I am surprised that your engine appears to be is running out of power, even with the low gearing.

In my experience with 22REs, tuning is critical for maximum performance and Mamma ECU is a little fussy.

My 86 Xtra cab, 5-speed, with 4.56 R&Ps, 5th gear, and 31" tires is perfect for getting the RPMs right at the peak torque range (2800 to 3200) when I'm running down the freeway between 65 and 75 MPH.

I've got a formula for calculating rear wheel torque somewhere, but I believe 5.29s and 31" tires may show less torque to the rear wheels than say 4.56s at highway speeds.

BUT... 5.29s with 31s, 5th gear, at 75 MPH your engine should be turning right about 3500 RPMs, still in the range of plenty of torque from that engine.

When you are going through the gears, what RPM do you tach to between shifts at WOT?

Header question:  The LCE header is an excellent header.  I don't recall seeing a dyno comparison between the Doug Thorley Tri-Y and an LCE 4-in-1 for a 22, but historically speaking most people say that the Tri-Y design produces more torque in lower RPMs... right where I want it.  If your exhaust is too large, that engine throttle response will be noticeably flatter at lower RPMs.

What octane gas are you burning?
Have you done a compression check?
When was the last time you check/adjusted the valve lash?
Have you checked the TPS adjustment?
What do the spark plugs look like?

Have you spoken to Jim at 22RE Performance?  I'd really like to know what cam he installed in that Stage 2.5?

Gnarls.




« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2019, 04:36:24 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Hickory Nut [OP]

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The RPM's don't continue to rise.

The engine sounds fine and idles like a purring kitten. I took out the interior and laid down some mastic sound barrier with the foil on top and put new carpet in it, but prior to that you could feel the heat near the shifter but I don't think it was excessive.

Yes I put a pile of $$$$ in the truck because I always wanted an 85 with the 22RE and knew I would keep it forever.

Elevation is roughly 100 - 300 above sea level and Hot as Heck down here now

When I got the truck I thought it was running a higher RPM than my previous 87 4x4 with stock R&P. I don't know what the stock R&P was

I shift somewhere between 3000 and 3500 driving around town, This is much higher than I ever did in the 87

Do you think the Cat Back from LCE is too large? It is a bit loud for my taste but it's not that big of a deal.

What octane gas are you burning? 87 non ethanol only
Have you done a compression check? No I still have the break in Joe Gibbs oil in it, Less than 500 miles since I installed the motor
When was the last time you check/adjusted the valve lash? Never - I think they said it was not needed
Have you checked the TPS adjustment? No it is a brand new unit purchased from them and I asked them to adjust it at 22RE Performance prior to shipping.
What do the spark plugs look like? I have not looked at them yet

I did take it to a guy that specializes in vintage toyota's and he found and issue with the wiring harness at the injectors. Fixing that issue made it run much better. I am not a mechanic but enjoy tinkering with the old truck.  I talked to 22RE Performance a while back when I was installing the motor but haven't since then. Its getting close to hunting season and will be using the truck more in the coming months.

I need to add new springs front and back sometime in the near future. Would a larger tire help with the high RPM or be less expensive than re-gearing. If I do re-gear I would probably add some sort of locker front and back. I really don't want to get new tires as these BFG KO2 still have the nobbies on them.

 

sirdeuce

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As mentioned above, the ECU, especially the pre '89s are not the best for mods.
With all the money you put into that truck, did you install a new cat or maybe remove it? Any big dings in the exhaust system? A restricted exhaust will limit your RPM, especially under load.
Another thing to check is the fuel pressure/flow. As the engine load goes up so does the fuel need. Under a light load, running around town in lower gears you can spin the engine to the higher RPM levels, but when you get on the highway in high gear with the aero resistance you can max out the fuel system pretty quickly. Then the fuel filter can be a problem here as well.
How does the power come on? Good bottom end torque with nothing on top? Could be the cam is advanced. No bottom end torque with power coming on hard on the top end? Cam retarded. Either way the powerband would be narrow and peaky. Cam could have jumped a tooth.
Ignition timing could be off. Too far either way can kill the top end. When setting the timing do you short the diagnostic plug? Very common mistake when setting timing. Using the old crank pulley/harmonic balancer can be an issue if the outer ring had slipped. Check TDC.

My ['86 4Runner will do 85mph on flat land(uphill is another issue) with pedal to spare. Currently running stock gears and engine with 31s. So I'd say there is an issue to look for.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X

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As mentioned above, the ECU, especially the pre '89s are not the best for mods.
With all the money you put into that truck, did you install a new cat or maybe remove it? Any big dings in the exhaust system? A restricted exhaust will limit your RPM, especially under load.
Another thing to check is the fuel pressure/flow. As the engine load goes up so does the fuel need. Under a light load, running around town in lower gears you can spin the engine to the higher RPM levels, but when you get on the highway in high gear with the aero resistance you can max out the fuel system pretty quickly. Then the fuel filter can be a problem here as well.
How does the power come on? Good bottom end torque with nothing on top? Could be the cam is advanced. No bottom end torque with power coming on hard on the top end? Cam retarded. Either way the powerband would be narrow and peaky. Cam could have jumped a tooth.
Ignition timing could be off. Too far either way can kill the top end. When setting the timing do you short the diagnostic plug? Very common mistake when setting timing. Using the old crank pulley/harmonic balancer can be an issue if the outer ring had slipped. Check TDC.

My ['86 4Runner will do 85mph on flat land(uphill is another issue) with pedal to spare. Currently running stock gears and engine with 31s. So I'd say there is an issue to look for.

H...

Unless there was some unusual failure after firing the engine, Jim set this long block up perfectly.

Ignition timing is critical as well as the TPS adjustment. 

The valve lash is also critical, and should be checked per Jim's cam spec.

The engine is not even close to being fully broken in. Engine break-in miles and throttle response is often debatable.
But, I think you are going to feel better throttle response in your butt dyno after a couple thousand miles.

I would check everything to make sure the tuning specs are right on.

Regarding fuel pressure and injectors, that is something that you could check, but I think the issue is something else.  Were the injectors new or rebuilt?

I would not buy bigger tires, unless you want more clearance, just to adjust the final gearing. 

If you plan to keep the tire size now and don't plan on going bigger diameter, then installing 4.56s is what I'd do.  You could possibly sell the 5.29 R&Ps, or if you swap complete diffs, you could sell them.

I highly encourage you to call and talk to Jim at 22REP.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2019, 06:30:56 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Snowtoy

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With the rpm's not advancing, it isn't an over gearing issue, it has to be something with the engine or the exhaust system as sirdeuce mentioned. 

Do the rpm's peak at the same point in neutral as they do when driving, do they peak at the same point in each gear?
If the peak in neutral, might disconnect the header and see what it does, something could have built a nest in the exhaust while it was sitting?  If they still peak w/o the header connected, it will be something with the fuel/air delivery or timing, a call into 22rePerformance should be done before you start tearing into things, don't want to mess up the warranty if it is still valid.

Quote
I shift somewhere between 3000 and 3500 driving around town, This is much higher than I ever did in the 87
With a proper working stock 22r(e), normal shifting points should be between 3500-4k.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

emsvitil

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I had my timing chain jump 2 links due to broken chain guides, advancing the cam timing.

After that happened,  it didn't have any power at higher rpms.

I don't think it jumped, but are you sure the cam is timed correctly?
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X

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H...

So.... the engine will not rev easily to 5,000 RPMs at wide open throttle in 1st and 2nd gears?

Did you follow 22REP's recommended break-in procedure?

"INITIAL START UP:
When you (or your shop) are going to fire up your engine for the first time......
 
Since Iím sure you (OR YOUR SHOP) have set the distributor to the general area of #1 TDC (watch the video here), itís time to crank it over.
TEST THE THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR!!! Your timing depends on a properly functioning / correctly set TPS!!!
Roger over at 4crawler.com has the most detailed and easy to follow procedure for testing and adjusting your TPS.
Click here and follow his testing and set-up procedure. Donít rely on the fact ďit was running fine beforeĒ. A few minutes testing and adjusting it now will save you frustrating hours trying to tune / time your engine."


Have you checked that the throttle body and throttle linkage is opening all the way?

You need to check the TPS and ignition timing.

I don't believe it's a mechanical issue with the long block.

Shifting at RPMs is just a personal choice.  I tach my engines up to 4500 to 5,000 in 1st gear almost every day, at least once.

My casual shifting is at about 3000 to 3500 RPMs.  I don't putt around.

On a 22RE..... LCE's 2.25" Cat Back exhaust with their header *may* cause a loss of torque in the lower RPMs, but you should see more power after 4,000 RPMs.... according to the general opinions of the some "experts".

The difference in power from a 22RE stock to 22REP's Stage 2 is significant! .... about 19 more HP and 13 ft. lbs of torque at the rear wheels.... VERY noticeable!

I am curious what Jim at 22REP would say about the LCE header and cat back exhaust on his Stage 2.5?

Gnarls.






« Last Edit: Sep 12, 2019, 05:01:25 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Hickory Nut [OP]

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To be honest I've never tried to rev the engine that high (5000 RPM) possibly up to 4000 on a whim. I did follow the recommended break in procedure. I have not looked at the TB recently but the linkage to the pedal seems to be correct (Not Loose and not a lot of play in the internal cable). I will find the Link and test the TPS. The injectors were purchased from 22RE Performance, I am not sure if they are new or rebuilt. The LCE header and Cat Back were purchased new prior to the new long block.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the potential fuel issue but my gauge is pegged out on full.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and will give 22RE a call next week after I check the TPS and timing.

Thanks again

emsvitil

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Something stupid.

Does the throttle cable open the throttle plate all the way when you floor it?
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X

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Something stupid.

Does the throttle cable open the throttle plate all the way when you floor it?

Not a stupid question.  And the best way to check this is to have air tube off the front of the throttle body, have someone press the gas pedal down all the way while you look to see that the butterfly in opening completely.

Then check the TPS.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Something stupid.

Does the throttle cable open the throttle plate all the way when you floor it?

I forgot that one altogether! Happens a lot, my 3.slow had a messed up, stretched cable causing that issue. Spent way too much time looking at everything else. Good one to look at!
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Hickory Nut [OP]

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I checked the Throttle cable with the truck off and the TB appears to be all the way open with the gas petal fully pressed. I did adjust the linkage to get some of the slack out of it (there was way more slack than I thought). I took it for a drive on the HWY and 70MPH at 3100 RPM was all she had and it took a while to get that. I did tach it to 4000 - 4300 RPM when shifting 1st -3rd this time and it seems like it would go higher if I didn't let off. On to test the TPS and Timing. 

Thanks for the input so far.

emsvitil

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Plugged up Cat converter?
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

 
 
 
 
 

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