Author Topic: I bought a boat...  (Read 5438 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kneedownnate

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
I bought a boat...
« on: Aug 28, 2019, 11:08:00 PM »
Ok, so maybe "bought" isn't the right term.  I was given a 97 spectrum 16 ft fisher with a bad 40 hp force outboard.  So now I have the dilemma of trying to find another force to drop on or getting something altogether different.  Dropping on another well running force (lol?) would obviously be the easiest, but I would prefer something 4 stroke and bigger.

It's rated for 40-75 hp, and I've seen guys running up to 90 hp on them, but I think I would prefer to stay within the manufacturers specs.  I have seen a couple 40-50 hp hondas and yamahas within a 3 hour drive, but most either claim to have various issues or are priced a bit higher than I think is right, like a 99 honda 50 hp for $3,000.  That said, if I can repower for that or less, I will still be within my budget for a running boat anyway.  I have considered that I may have to buy a running boat to steal the engine from, but then I would have to figure out how to get rid of that pile when I was done.

If anybody sees anything worthwhile from northern california to sourthern oregon, post a link or let me know.  I don't mind a little drive, though I'd prefer to be able to pull the boat to wherever the outboard is and drop it on for simplicity-sake.
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

emsvitil

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 7571
  • Male Posts: 3,561
  • Member since May '07
    • View Profile
    • emsvitil's album
    • Buy me a soda
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #1 on: Aug 29, 2019, 03:17:45 PM »
Use the back half of your 600rr.   


Just add paddle tire...……..




 :cheese:
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #2 on: Aug 29, 2019, 09:03:12 PM »
But it’s only rated for 75 hp...
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

emsvitil

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 7571
  • Male Posts: 3,561
  • Member since May '07
    • View Profile
    • emsvitil's album
    • Buy me a soda
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #3 on: Aug 30, 2019, 05:09:15 AM »
Pull a spark plug wire to cut down the HP
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2.5K Group
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 7674
  • Male Posts: 2,513
  • Member since May '15
    • View Profile
    • Buy me a beer
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #4 on: Aug 30, 2019, 05:24:29 AM »
I've been on the water my whole life. I've learned quite a bit about outboards and boating in general. First off throw that force in the trash. It's a cheap knock off of either a Chrysler, mercury or Yamaha depending on its year. I have hundreds of friends that I hunt or fish with in the aluminum mafia as we call it. It's about 45% Yamaha 4 stroke, 35% mercury 4 stroke, 10% Suzuki 4 stroke, and the remaining is older 2 stroke. This is for a reason.

Hands down the small Yamaha 4 strokes are the quietest and most fuel efficient. That is not up for debate, it is a proven fact all over the world. They are not cheap but they are great engines.

I personally run many different brands. My 1648 g3 I put a 2013 mercury 60 4 stroke on has over 3700 hours on it now and I swear to you I have done nothing but change the oil and fuel filters. Never even done an impeller in the lower unit. I absolutely love this engine. The only thing i do not care for is the noise compared to a Yamaha 60 idling next to it. There is certainly an audible difference. Every 4 stroke mercury 115 hp and down is actually a tohatsu engine. You can buy a new tohatsu for about $1500 less than a mercury and have the same engine with a different shape cowling.

Suzuki has come a long way in the past 10-15 years. Their new 4 strokes are becoming the way of life down here on the gulf coast for our larger offshore boats and the Yamaha's are being replaced by them. The big Suzukis make more power and are more efficient and faster per comparison on the same hull with the same hp rating. The smaller 4 strokes are doing well also. Just havent gotten to the point of their big brothers.

Honda outboards are not known for their durability as compared to Honda cars. Alabama power bought a fleet of cab boats, push boats, jon boats, and general working barges in the early 2000s. All of them powered by Honda. Within 2 years they had swapped almost all of them out for Yamaha and mercury. I wouldnt personally never own a Honda outboard. Parts are expensive and no one close keeps them in stock. I will say though that they re quite fuel efficient when they are running.

All of that being said, if I were in your shoes and had about 3k to spend I would be looking for a used mercury f60 or a Yamaha f60-f70.


83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2.5K Group
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 7674
  • Male Posts: 2,513
  • Member since May '15
    • View Profile
    • Buy me a beer
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #5 on: Aug 30, 2019, 06:31:33 AM »
Also, dont forget you will be doing a lot of weight transfering and prop testing/tuning to get all you can out of it. The 4 stroke is quite a bit heavier than the old 2 strokes ate.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #6 on: Aug 31, 2019, 06:04:21 PM »
Great input, thanks!  I have looked into it enough to know there were a lot of companies sharing.  The fleet of rental boats I used to oversee ran evinrude/johnson/omc from the era where their 4 strokes were basically suzuki.  I am also used to straddling 60-70 hp 2 stroke outboards and am not nearly as bothered by the noise as most, actually kinda like it!

That said, having to top off premix oil or worry about a troublesome vro pump and excessive leak-prone fuel fittings doesn’t have me too excited, but the need to get on the water trumps some of my concerns.

I am waiting on a call from a guy selling an ‘84 60-70 hp evinrude that “ran when removed a few years ago” for $100.  I have a too long wiring harness and may even have the appropriate control box around. 
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #7 on: Aug 31, 2019, 06:08:17 PM »
Oh, and we have a very well reputed prop tuner who will no doubt have the right setup in mind for me, depending on what I get.  Should help cut down a bit on testing...
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #8 on: Aug 31, 2019, 08:37:36 PM »
Just spoke with the guy with the 70 hp evinrude and he’s gonna hold it for me till I can get it next weekend.  Turns out he’s a customer of mine and knew who I was.

I just got some lumber and will be building a stand tomorrow.  If it turns out well enough I will build another stand and will get his 90 horse to play with.  I may even build a rack and start collecting anymore cheap evinrudes I find, though that may have to wait till Stocker and I build me a shed so I can attach it to the side
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2.5K Group
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 7674
  • Male Posts: 2,513
  • Member since May '15
    • View Profile
    • Buy me a beer
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #9 on: Sep 01, 2019, 09:02:58 AM »
Hell yeah! The old 3 cyl Johnny rudes are bullet proof as long as the fuel pump doesnt get weak. I killed the bottom cyl on my 70 because it leaned out due to lack of fuel.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #10 on: Sep 01, 2019, 02:32:07 PM »
See if my phone will cooperate today...
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #11 on: Sep 07, 2019, 06:13:16 PM »
Got one step closer to having a working boat.  Guy just delivered my $100 evinrude 70 horse and insisted on starting it for me.  Started and idled fine, responded well to throttle input, though he did say it wants to stumble when shifted under load, which I am hoping will be fixed by rebuilding the carbs.

While buying the carb kits I will be buying a fuel pump rebuild, carb solenoid rebuild (or new solenoid), and was contemplating getting a coil and wire, just in case.  I really like these things in white, especially after he showed me several pics of his current outboard in white. 

RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

emsvitil

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 7571
  • Male Posts: 3,561
  • Member since May '07
    • View Profile
    • emsvitil's album
    • Buy me a soda
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #12 on: Sep 07, 2019, 10:11:55 PM »

You won't go very far with that prop...………….


 :think:
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #13 on: Sep 07, 2019, 11:06:24 PM »
You won't go very far with that prop...………….


 :think:


:rofl2:
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

Rockcrawlintoy

  • 4 doors for more whores
  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2120
  • Male Posts: 2,336
  • Member since Dec '03
  • RIP Kyle
    • View Profile
    • Buy me a soda
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #14 on: Sep 08, 2019, 04:50:49 AM »
Remember the best boat is a friends boat  :yupyup:
Resident Jeep Guy
2007 JKU All Stock
ECV 7-11

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #15 on: Sep 08, 2019, 08:44:02 AM »
Or a rental boat, but I have no friends and I don’t work on a rental fleet anymore, so  :down:
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #16 on: Sep 10, 2019, 08:21:58 PM »
No updates other than I went to dmv to get it registered in my name.  Fully prepared to pay $300-400 since it hadn’t been registered since 2013.  Only cost me $76.  That leaves me with more wiggle room to buy outboard parts or other stuff. 

Also went to home depot for some marine carpet they had listed for nearly $5 a linear foot but they were out of it, which sucks cause it was nearly the same color as mine.  They did have some on closeout in dark green for 90 cents a foot.  I was only gonna get a few feet but decided on 10 feet for good measure, only once he had rolled out 10 feet there wasn’t much left, so I got the whole roll for about $14.
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #17 on: Sep 20, 2019, 01:33:02 PM »
Finally got in my shipments of parts for the johnson, but they messed up and sent me 2 starter solenoids instead of 1 solenoid and a rectifier.  No big deal, not like I need them right away, just wanted to replace everything at the same time.  May just replace the plugs, rebuild the carbs (still not sure if I wanna pull and inspect the reeds or wait till I find some aftermarkets to swap in), fix some wiring and replace the water outlet hose nipple and hose.  Was gonna replace the thermostat but forgot to get the cover gasket so it'll have to wait till the next order of parts arrives.

I was trying to remove the side panel where the control box is mounted but it's not coming out.  Not sure if the control box itself is hanging up on something or if there's a certain way I have to tilt it to get it out, but it's not moving enough to remove it.  I pulled all the bolts holding it in place and it can slide front to back about 2", so there should be nothing more attaching it to the boat, but I'm stumped.

Been looking for a bimini top with no luck, plus I would rather try to find a full enclosure if possible, but it's a pita to find stuff online built specifically for this boat.  Also not looking forward to researching which batteries to get, and not sure if I wanna run an isolator or perko switch.  Kinda thinking of getting some small solar panels to fill the panels in front of the windshield, though I doubt they would be of much help.  Also trying to decide how to rig a swim ladder and kicker.  Kinda surprised there weren't pre-drilled mounting holes for a kicker motor.
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

brainlessfool

  • It's not my problem if you can't hear the voices too.
  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 2730
  • Male Posts: 4,207
  • Member since Jun '02
  • drive fast or the devil may get ya
    • View Profile
    • Buy me a cigar
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #18 on: Oct 19, 2019, 09:48:10 PM »
Well? does it float?  :crossed:
A good day working, that's just sick :reg:

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #19 on: Oct 22, 2019, 04:45:07 PM »
Haven't done anything on it yet.  55 hours a week at work has been sapping all my energy, plus I have still been pretty sore most days off and have barely even got out to deer hunt yet, and I just got hit hard by a bug while out hunting a couple days ago.  Hopefully after this week I can get back on it.  I sanded and added a little body filler to the hood and will get back on it and see how it looks in white, then will follow that up by cleaning and painting the engine white, too.  May try to get a friend's a-frame, which would make swapping outboards a lot easier than trying to lift them on and off by myself.

Also looks like I'm still on to head down to the bay area late november to grab 2 more similar era parts motors, both of which supposedly were last run 10 years ago before the boat was parked for good, and both have stainless props.  Got a pallet to build a mount for transporting them in the bed, similar to the crate they're shipped on, and will be widening it so it snugs between the fender wells and pushes snug against the cab and tailgate so it doesn't shift with 2 outboards mounted to it.  Should make transporting them a ton easier and safer!

Oh, and I still need to find the right control box for the johnson/evinrude setup.  The merc box and cables work really smooth but I cannot seem to find any adapters to hook the merc cables to the johnson outboard  :dunno:
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

emsvitil

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 7571
  • Male Posts: 3,561
  • Member since May '07
    • View Profile
    • emsvitil's album
    • Buy me a soda
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #20 on: Oct 22, 2019, 06:53:07 PM »


Oh, and I still need to find the right control box for the johnson/evinrude setup.  The merc box and cables work really smooth but I cannot seem to find any adapters to hook the merc cables to the johnson outboard  :dunno:



Talk to Rube Goldberg


 :think:
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #21 on: Nov 24, 2019, 11:22:44 AM »
After months of trying to find a good working period appropriate control box, I finally found a new one that still sits behind the side panel like the og merc box.  I will never again order from the place I got it, but after two weeks, it’s finally here.  If my back will cooperate today, I will try to get the old one out and measure the shift/throttle cables so I can get those ordered, and may run and measure the omc wiring harness to see how much I need to trim, or just roll up the excess and hide it behind a panel
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

brainlessfool

  • It's not my problem if you can't hear the voices too.
  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 2730
  • Male Posts: 4,207
  • Member since Jun '02
  • drive fast or the devil may get ya
    • View Profile
    • Buy me a cigar
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #22 on: Jul 10, 2020, 08:33:46 AM »
and? been a while.  :psss:
A good day working, that's just sick :reg:

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #23 on: Jul 12, 2020, 06:40:31 PM »
Still pretty much in the same position.  We had to lay off 13 guys due to covid restrictions and lost them all so, 57 hours a week it’s been

I have been trying to get a new outboard but it’s been proving to be a huge pita.  Nobody up here can sell me one so I will have to drive down to the bay area to buy one.

On top of that, I suddenly developed an issue with my shoulder and elbows and cannot lift anything
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #24 on: Jul 12, 2020, 06:41:28 PM »
But I did take it in the other day and put some new tires on the trailer
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

Stocker

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 962
  • Male Posts: 173
  • Member since Oct '05
  • Since 1977
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #25 on: Jul 16, 2020, 12:43:33 PM »
We had to lay off 13 guys due to covid restrictions and lost them all so, 57 hours a week it’s been

On top of that, I suddenly developed an issue with my shoulder and elbows and cannot lift anything
:ack:  Crap, very sorry to hear about that -- but still would like to know more details. About both issues. 
My goal in life is to be as a good a person as my dog already thinks I am.

If you don't learn something every day, you're not paying attention.

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #26 on: Aug 04, 2020, 09:20:57 PM »
Finally put the casters on my second portable engine stand and got it buttoned up, which is good cause I have again changed gears and may pick up a clean low hours 2014 60hp merc.  Just hafta see if I can work out a deal with the guy
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2.5K Group
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 7674
  • Male Posts: 2,513
  • Member since May '15
    • View Profile
    • Buy me a beer
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #27 on: Aug 11, 2020, 10:12:52 AM »
You will enjoy it Nate. I have a little over 2700 hours on my 2012 60 4 stroke merc. They are actually built by tohatsu.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

kneedownnate [OP]

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1051
  • Male Posts: 9,755
  • Member since Oct '04
    • View Profile
Re: I bought a boat...
« Reply #28 on: Aug 23, 2020, 11:48:07 AM »
One step forward, two steps back.  Guy with the merc broke contact with me and sold it.  There’s an 08 40 hp merc around willits and an 04 50 horse around the bay, but the older they are the more leery I am.

I contacted a dealer up in oregon regarding buying a new one and am just waiting to hear back.  Got ahold of another guy a couple hours closer in oregon but his price was pretty high and he only had a 40.

With all that, I am expanding my search to again include an evinrude etec, but after more research I am trying to find a 75 horse

Given that all this is taking longer and it is still too hot, I am starting to consider making the storage in the sides enclosed so I can keep gear dry and out of site, which would either include building doors for the front or redecking the front so I could build deck access instead of reaching in from the sides
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

emsvitil

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 7571
  • Male Posts: 3,561
  • Member since May '07
    • View Profile
    • emsvitil's album
    • Buy me a soda
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

 
 
 
 
 

Related Topics

11 Replies
3953 Views
Last post Nov 28, 2004, 05:15:15 PM
by UNBREAKABLE
22 Replies
3836 Views
Last post Jun 27, 2006, 05:04:50 PM
by FIREBALL
2 Replies
1149 Views
Last post May 27, 2007, 09:51:40 PM
by toyotaboy
23 Replies
5547 Views
Last post Mar 08, 2008, 10:12:41 AM
by crawler94
Boat
1 Replies
1454 Views
Last post May 18, 2008, 05:52:25 PM
by toby