Author Topic: 2REP vs LCE pro head  (Read 832 times)

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Lewis Hein

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2REP vs LCE pro head
« on: May 21, 2019, 03:15:58 PM »
Hey guys,

The time is soon coming for a new head on my 22R. Anyone have opinions on the 22RE Performance vs the LCE Street Performer (wtih the LCE Pro casting) heads? I don't like the stiffer valve springs in the 22REP head because they will increase camshaft wear. Also I don't know if the powdered metal valve seats will cause the exhaust valve seats to wear faster.

Anyone have any real world experience they would care to share?

Thanks!

sirdeuce

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2019, 04:36:36 PM »
What year is your 22RE? Depending on the cam you use you may or may not need the heavier springs. I have use Buick springs on a few of my engines with 120lb installed seat pressure without excessive cam wear, but that IS with aftermarket billet cams, not regrinds. New rockers will break in to the cam better which will reduce your cam wear as the wear pad wears to the cams profile, different profiles wear the pads differently.
The harder seats will be fine with the steel valves. If you go with stainless valves make sure to have bronze guides installed.
I wouldn't say one was better than the other as far as build, but check the flow charts. Pay attention to the lower lift flow. Because of the dogleg/dam built in to the intake port I prefer going for higher  flow numbers at low lifts since the 22R head is so restrictive at high valve lifts. Looking at either builder I don't think it will be any different between them. Both yse 'new' heads' that they most likely get from the same manufacturer. The 'new' heads I've used seem to have a better port wall than OEM. One thing you can never be assured of when buying a head like this is the initial machining of the head. All manufacturers are guilty of it, the concentricy of the seat to the port, I've seen seats as far as 3mm off center, which really affects the port flow. Best heads are hand picked for this before any mods are performed.

With all that said, at the entry level "performance" head, not much is really done. A little blending of the port just above the seat and a 3 or 5 angle valve job. Not really much to be had, not compatible with much more than a stock cam.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Lewis Hein [OP]

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2019, 06:24:04 PM »
Well it's in an 85 pickup, possibly the original engine. That said the block is painted blue so who knows. I'm planning on using a reground cam, as I don't want to spend $$$ on tuning right now.

H8PVMNT

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2019, 06:51:40 PM »
I can't speak for the heads but the 22re performance 282 cam Jim sent me is pretty awesome.  17-20 mpg and the truck actually gets out of it's own way.
 The valve springs he sends are 75 lb, I don't think that's too crazy. I'm pretty sure the 272 cam can be used with stock valve springs, but with carb you can push the cam profile a bit more anyway.

An adjustable cam gear is pretty fun to play with too, even with a stock cam.

Also don't underestimate a careful gasket match and mild port matching/polishing.  On my last 20r head I just gasket matched and then blended in from there and equalized the sizes of the ports to match the largest port after polishing a bit.  Nothing drastic mind you, don't get carried away, but the engine feels great, so I think it helped a bit and I definitaly didn't screw it up.

Not saying you shouldn't buy a nice head, but a guy like you could certainly put a head together.  Heck I used a tool you made me to put the new valve guides in :).
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 07:02:32 PM by H8PVMNT »
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Lewis Hein [OP]

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 07:31:12 PM »
Some background:

The blow-by and oil consumption on my current engine are getting OLD. Blow by could be worn cylinders/piston rings or valves not seating properly, but I know for sure that the head needs rebuilt, as it leaves black burnt-oily streaks on my spark plugs, plus if I park facing uphill oil drains down into the cylinders and creates a nice little cloud of smoke upon subsequent startup.

My abiding fear is that I've never built a head before, and I would like to have something that works well and keeps on working well for another 200k miles. I don't know if my skills are up to doing this the first time, especially without any valve grinding equipment. Given the volumes that have been written about how rebuilt engines fail sooner, I am sometimes haunted by visions of my rebuilt head being as bad as the old one. That said, I don't see how a head can be that complicated, and I may take your vote of confidence as a reason to try ;)

sirdeuce

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2019, 07:31:42 PM »
The 22RE injection, especially the early issue, can't really handle much in the way of performance upgrades. Your regrind cam should be 220-240 degree grind with .420" lift. Keep your compression low, 9.5-9.7 to 1.  I didn't like the early EFI, couldn't do much with it. If you can go carby it would be better, especially with a weber carb. You can look into a Cannon mani/38DFEV Weber combi and drop in a little bigger cam with a bump in compression for a kick in the pants improvement. For keeping the EFI I'd look into the late '89-'95 electronics.

If you don't have to worry about emissions look into dual carbs and a 20R head. Good power with an awesome sound.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Lewis Hein [OP]

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 07:37:19 PM »
Thanks for all the input guys! Just to be clear, my priority #1 is to have a durable head that does not drip oil onto my spark plugs and stays that way for many many years and miles. Performance upgrades and tweaking will come later if/when I have time and money. BTW I already have a carb.

sirdeuce

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 07:42:48 PM »
Oh, for a first engine build I'd suggest keeping it simple. Do tons of research before you try to change anything in the ports. There are some decent tutorials on youtube. Really study the head and take your time. Don't do like me on your first build and get excited, things get forgotten and you'll have to start all over with a different block. Have fun and good luck!
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

sirdeuce

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 07:44:20 PM »
Stock carb?
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2019, 08:09:51 PM »
... I don't see how a head can be that complicated, and I may take your vote of confidence as a reason to try ;)


Hi Lewis...

After visiting my local head shop here and having John check out my bad head, then having him give me a short introduction into how he builds a head and why, there is NO way I would ever tackle rebuilding a head!!  The amount of precision, expertise, serious machinery, and measuring instruments is WAY beyond my level or interest.

But I certain commend any DIYer to give it a try.

Just my thoughts...  :blah:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2019, 08:24:48 PM »
...One thing you can never be assured of when buying a head like this is the initial machining of the head. All manufacturers are guilty of it, the concentricy of the seat to the port, I've seen seats as far as 3mm off center, which really affects the port flow. Best heads are hand picked for this before any mods are performed.


If you are referring to the port area around the valve seats, my engnbldr RV, os valves, etc head was very badly machined and the valve seats were not concentric.  None of the exhaust valve were closing.  The valve springs were crooked and not sitting square on the table.  The valve seats were so bad that John said the machine work to fix it and install new seats would be WAY more than buying a new bare head and him putting in the valves.  He could not confirm who manufactured my head.

There are a number of advertised sources for 22 heads, knowing what I know now, I would only buy from 22RE Performance, LCE, or my local head shop.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2019, 08:56:03 PM »
If you are referring to the port area around the valve seats, my engnbldr RV, os valves, etc head was very badly machined and the valve seats were not concentric.  None of the exhaust valve were closing.  The valve springs were crooked and not sitting square on the table.  The valve seats were so bad that John said the machine work to fix it and install new seats would be WAY more than buying a new bare head and him putting in the valves.  He could not confirm who manufactured my head.

There are a number of advertised sources for 22 heads, knowing what I know now, I would only buy from 22RE Performance, LCE, or my local head shop.

Gnarls.

I now only buy a head that I can inspect BEFORE any work is done. I don't care what shop I'm dealing with. I have a head on the shelf that I bought sight unseen that I actually lucked out on and the seats are really close to the ports. The 20R head I have was the best out of a stack of heads I looked at. I'm a bit fussy. I can tell you to definately go with a reputable shop, but even then you can't tell.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X

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Re: 2REP vs LCE pro head
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2019, 09:18:47 PM »
.... I can tell you to definately go with a reputable shop, but even then you can't tell.


I understand why your are "a bit fussy"!!

When I bought the head, I thought engnbldr was as "reputable" as I could get.  But apparently it was a fubar'd head!!  I'm guessing it came for a Chinese source with OS valves installed and never checked, just boxed and shipped to me.

Gnarls.


1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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