Author Topic: Sleeved 22R block  (Read 277 times)

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sirdeuce

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Sleeved 22R block
« on: May 13, 2019, 07:19:39 PM »
Has anybody had experience, or heard of, sleeving a 22R block for a greater bore diameter? Maybe a set of chromoly sleeves to take the bore over the 94mm max.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

jimbo74

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 10:54:56 PM »
what are you trying to do? save a damaged block or build a hot rod?
:usa:

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Gnarly4X

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2019, 04:39:31 AM »
what are you trying to do? save a damaged block or build a hot rod?

 :dunno:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce [OP]

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2019, 09:15:34 AM »
Looking to build a grunt motor. I've done the stroke bit, back in the mid '80s, Thinking or resurrecting the old stroker and punching out the cylinders as far as possible. I just don't have a block open to do any tinkering with.

As far as use? Putt putt, 2WD. Probably be my last 22R project.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2019, 07:35:57 PM »
“grunt”…. So the word implies low end torque?

“Putt putt”… not sure what that means… possibly lugging it around town… no racing?

94mm seems to be an acceptable overbore.

If I were going to do that, I’d have the block sonic tested and magnafluxed.  I’d keep the compression 9 or below.

That much overbore will increase the power.  There is a list of optional mods and parts selection that I would carefully consider.

I’d have a conversation with Jim at 22RE Performance and one of engine builders at LCE to get their input.

I don’t know if there is any kind of non-manageable cooling issues with the thinner cylinder walls?

I would weigh the cost of a big overbore for power gains vs. other optional modifications for power gain.

With a big bore will a ported head, larger valves, and a torquey cam be an important complement?

If I took a factory stock 22R and bored to 94mm and rebuilt back with no other mods, I’d get about 7 lbs of torque and a 2 HP gain.  In my experience, 7 lbs of increase torque would be noticeable.

Gnarls.  :gap:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce [OP]

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 10:58:24 AM »
Yeah Gnarls, I have thought all about that, even looking at the LCE supercharger kit. I got my first Toyota back in '86 when I got out of the ARMY. Almost immediately started modding the 22R. In '88 I took a crank to shop and had them weld and offset grind the crank to what they thought would be the max for the block. Turned out to be 94mm (maybe they had heard of LCE back then). Went with a 93mm bore for a 2.5l displacement. Of course I used the "tall" 22R block, it's what I had. I used a set of Chevy rods, 6" C-C length ( a set of rods made by lost wax, investment casting process, a work of art really! Look up Mechart connecting rods.) and custom pistons, topped off with a 20R head with 22R valves and dual Mikuni carbs from one of my 18RGs. It was an insane 4 banger for it's time! And in a light weight '74 Celica it took a lot of "American muscle" guys by surprise!

But I've always wondered if I could make a bigger engine, It's a mountain I want to climb.

I already have the ported big valve head covered, I can go 20R or 22R. I do want to go EFI, and that would mean using the 22R head as the LCE kits fit them. The 20R head would need more work than it already has. I don't even care if the power is all in by 5k RPM.  Cam will be decided upon later, probably just use the one I have sitting in a box, 250/260 in/ex with I believe .470" lift. Should make for an interestingly stout bruiser.

Thin wall cylinders? I'm sure it would require custom sleeves, Probably not too thin in the walls then. I'll know more of what is possible after I dig out a block.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

sirdeuce [OP]

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2019, 11:02:54 AM »
I am sure, beyond a doubt it WON'T be worth it.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2019, 05:10:50 AM »
I'v never been involved with cylinder sleeving, but I do know its a very precise process.

If you post here, I'm very interested in following you along if you do sleeve a block and build this engine!!  :beerchug:

I'll play with some numbers, based on your descriptions, in my Performance Trends Engine Analyzer in the next couple days and post the results.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

redneckcustoms13

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 06:03:39 AM »
In high school I built a little hot rod 20/22 with a stroker kit making it a 2.7l displacement. I never put it on a dyno but it was somewhere in the range of 200hp if I had to put a number on it. It was carbed and mainly a street use but I did hunt out of it. That being said I know that feeling of making a turd fast.

While I admire the thought and willingness to experiment I have a few questions.
You are wanting to go efi, why not do a more modern engine?
You are thinking of possible forced induction
You want big hp in a small package.
All of those things scream 2/3rz. A turbo or sc 3rz is easily capable of 300hp on stock internals. It has obd2 so trouble shooting and monitoring are a breeze. They are darn near everywhere now for a fair price.
Just some food for thought. I admire the old 22r tractor motor but its modern brother is much more powerful.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

sirdeuce [OP]

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 08:59:40 AM »
Redneck, I've had 2/3RZ engines, they do pretty well enough, but like I said earlier, I've had a relationship with the 18/20/22R engine for quite some time. I've had MANY cars with a widely varied engine selection. I haven't, however, really done anything with the RE. I've had just about every carbureted set-up available for an R engine, including modifying the Aisin progressive vacuum secondary that came stock on the 20R. That was an awesome carb after the mods.
I have cars with more modern to modern engines, like my Mazdaspeed3. That MZR engine is a beast from Mazdaspeed, and it can be trained to be a MONSTER! Not to mention my MR2 that spins to nearly 9000rpm, fuel cut at 8800rpm, but doesn't have any hp to brag about. Sounds awesome though!
Forced induction is something I've been considering for a long time, just like the sound and feel of an N/A engine.
Not looking for big HP in a small package here, looking for big torque! Like Gnarls said, lug around town, no racing. 200ftlb torque at 3000rpm is about 115hp. Looking for that kind of output.
If I were to go do a swap I'd go for a 2JZ or 1UZ or even try an MZR. 2JZ I don't have to say anything else on that. 1UZ would be N/A with ITBs, sends shivers up the spine! And the MZR? Stock MZR, tuned with intake and exhaust bolt-ons can net 300+p at the wheels and upwards of 330 torque. Pop in an upgraded HPFP(high pressure fuel pump) and bigger turbo, tune for E85 and 500whp/wtq has been done on stock internals. Insanity in a FWD car. I put my MS3 on the dyno a few months after I got it and it was putting it's rated crank hp/tq to the wheels. Imagine my surprise! I've driven one of these cars that puts over 400hp/tq to the ground. Lets just say it's fun, but not something to daily drive.
This is a nostalgia thing at the least. I'm inspired by this project by the memory of a race I had in my '77 Celica back in the early '90s. I took out a CRX shifting at 3000rpm. Guy in the CRX didn't believe he lost to what he saw. That was a gutted Celica, under 1900lbs, with a 20/22R running a single Weber 40DEFEV down draft with headers( bunch of stuff in the engine too). So my idea is a 22R powerband, all in by 5000rpm with stump pulling torque.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

zippo

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2019, 09:31:17 AM »
Having put the Camden (lce) supercharger on a 22re, I would not do it again. I would turbo it. Then again I would never put money in another 22 build. Just swap it. I have done 3rz and 5vz swaps and by far the 5vz is just awesome in early vehicles.

The issue is even if you spent 10k on building up a 22 motor you would be lucky to hit 200hp. The money could be better spent.  It I understand somtimes it's not about the numbers.
If you see it, its for sale.

sirdeuce [OP]

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2019, 04:34:05 PM »
Nope, not about numbers, not at all.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

Gnarly4X

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 09:25:44 AM »
.... So my idea is a 22R powerband, all in by 5000rpm with stump pulling torque.

A 200 HP 22RE can be built with lots of low end torque.

I think it will take a MegaSquirt type controller, custom injectors, a longer stroke, and a high compression ratio, and a carefully selected cam profile, an really good AFR gauge, lots and lots of tuning, and probably some other goodies.

It would be WAY easier with a carb’d engine.

But… I am NOT an engine builder.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce [OP]

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Re: Sleeved 22R block
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 02:36:19 PM »
Yep, been there, done that. I've built 200+hp 20/22r engines for my Celicas. Been through several sets of carbs and done just about everything you can think of to do to these heads. I've had 8000rpm Rs. I can tell you it's possible to get 160hp with a weber 40DFEV, single downdraft synchro 40mm 2bbl. The EFI, I'm sure, is not that hard to get that level power from with the proper tuning, probably have to ditch the AFM and go MAP, or use a Supra AFM. A stand alone is definitely a good direction to go, but I'm still trying to verify whether a piggyback will work with the 22RE ECU.

I think it will, but does anybody know if the Greddy e-manage will work with the 22RE ECU? I'll be using the '89 to'95 electronics.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

 
 
 
 
 

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