Topic: Yes, my Daihatsu Rocky engine is toast. I need your help, please

[utherjorge]

Hello to one and all. I have a build thread here, but just like Lewis here on a different thread, my Rocky engine is no more.

A quick engine summary: when I first got it, I changed the fluids and started it up. I blew a hose. So I replaced that hose. Then, I started it up again. I blew a different hose. So, I replaced all the hoses.

Then, after running OK for a bit, the head gasket went. I had the head done (decked and everything, new head bolts, new timing belt and replaced all cracked valves I had) and all was OK for maybe 500 miles.

Now, I can't keep it cool again, and we have massive smoke on a start-up done when the vehicle is warm. I'm down compression in two cylinders. I think it's a simple matter of a 145k mile motor that was not always treated well, that already has cooling weaknesses, and is simply ready to go bye bye. Additionally, while it's drinking about half a gallon of coolant per 200 miles, this crap is floating up to the top. It appears to be some sort of stop leak product from who knows when. The radiator has been flushed and flow checked, and this is the third time all new coolant was put in, and we still have this, the top video in this link:
https://reddymcredred.blogspot.com/2019/04/poopie-engine-vids.html

Also, note the second video below it, where it barely cranks, and when it does it bogs, has no power, and smokes a ton.

So, we're not going to keep kicking this can down the road. I know this will be a two year process, most likely, and I understand that. If you dig around, you're going to see me post this same question (and story) to a couple paces regarding smaller GM motors, too. Ecotecs and the Vortec 2800 and 2900 seem to have a size that could work.

I want to run a Toyota 8-inch rear end no matter what. I don't mind being all Toyota at all. It might even be easier. I simply want to get a reliable small motor under the hood so I can enjoy the truck, whenever that can be.

I have seen a Toy V-6 used, but that thread is posted a few places and there is never a conclusion. It looks like the driveline angle was pretty severe, and I bet it was undriveable at the end of it all. Lewis here seemed to throw a 22 or some sort in his, and those have been done with some success in different places. What sort of suggestions do you all have? Should I look for something much newer?

I don't mind converting the front to solid axle, and I don't mind lifting the body more than the 2" it already has. I like a stick shift but if that's a problem, I'd go with an auto. I don't have druthers for that.

Thanks in advance, guys. This has been a pretty disappointing few months as I get this thing going.

[Toybrota]

Depending on your fabrication skills, I don't see why you can't install any small V6 or 4 Cylinder.

22R or a 20R would be a fantastic choice, install a Weber and run it with very little connections. Block off the heater if you want, too.
Wiring a 20/22R would be super simple, so you could easily mount it up with little to no factory harness modifications.
Mechanical or electrical fuel pump, universal in that regard. If you run into space issues, you could run an electrical fan for more clearance.

You could do a 22RE swap, but that would require a ton of wiring. You'd need the harness and ECU off the truck.

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[Lewis Hein]

Notes:

The Rocky and 4-cylinder charade engines do not seem to be good motors. Mine had a blown head gasket at a little over a hundred thousand miles, and shortly thereafter developed a rod knock. I am sorry to hear that yours is headed down a similar path.

The 22R swap has been tricky. The engine fits fine in the engine bay, except that the starter motor fouls one of the hard brake lines. I still don't know what I'm going to do about that. I have a W56 on my engine, and it was a royal pain to get in because it fouls the cross-member that holds the torsion bars for the front IFS. Even if you're going to do a SAS I would hesitate to cut this cross member because it looks like it provides important bracing to the frame. Also, the rear driveline is going to be kinda short, but maybe doable. Maybe.

That said, I did eventually get the W56 wrestled in there, with a helper. It took about two days, three jacks, two ratchet straps, and a chain. No, it was neither safe nor fun. Yes, with proper equipment it would have been a bit easier and safer.

I like the R series engines, and aside from the brake line issue I think the 22R will probably be a good fit in the engine bay; I haven't completed the swap so believe me at your own risk. I think a V6 might be kind of a tight fit side-to-side in the Rocky engine bay, so measure carefully. That said, a V6 in a Rocky would be cool...

[utherjorge [OP]]

Depending on your fabrication skills, I don't see why you can't install any small V6 or 4 Cylinder.

22R or a 20R would be a fantastic choice, install a Weber and run it with very little connections. Block off the heater if you want, too.
Wiring a 20/22R would be super simple, so you could easily mount it up with little to no factory harness modifications.
Mechanical or electrical fuel pump, universal in that regard. If you run into space issues, you could run an electrical fan for more clearance.

You could do a 22RE swap, but that would require a ton of wiring. You'd need the harness and ECU off the truck.

I'm quickly learning how to do "stuff," but some time ago, I had an older Impala with a carb...and I never could get that to run correctly. How "easy" is it to get a carb to run correctly? I will never plan to rock crawl where I would get into bizarre angles where I need fuel injection.

I have to replace my entire dash and I have many wiring problems as it sits now. It drives fine (as far as electrical) but I have little gremlins everywhere. As I see this being something that would take two years, wiring isn't the end of the world, I like simple, too. I had just got the dual batteries in and running so I should have juice for anything as needed.

I just pulled this off of Wikipedia:
"A popular modification to the early 22R is to use a 20R head. This head has smaller combustion chambers, giving a higher compression ratio, which then allows more power to be developed. The 20R head can also flow better than the 22R head, which improves high RPM power. The 20R head is a simple bolt-on modification for the pre-1985 block, but also requires the use of the 20R intake manifold, making it almost impossible (there’s a lot of matching necessary) to use with the 22RE EFI system. For blocks 1985 and onwards, further modifications are required."

Is this a true thing? I figure if I'm doing a swap, I don't want to have exactly the same power as before...a bump would make it worthwhile. 150 is the max I would want to do.

[utherjorge [OP]]

Notes:

The Rocky and 4-cylinder charade engines do not seem to be good motors. Mine had a blown head gasket at a little over a hundred thousand miles, and shortly thereafter developed a rod knock. I am sorry to hear that yours is headed down a similar path.

The 22R swap has been tricky. The engine fits fine in the engine bay, except that the starter motor fouls one of the hard brake lines. I still don't know what I'm going to do about that. I have a W56 on my engine, and it was a royal pain to get in because it fouls the cross-member that holds the torsion bars for the front IFS. Even if you're going to do a SAS I would hesitate to cut this cross member because it looks like it provides important bracing to the frame. Also, the rear driveline is going to be kinda short, but maybe doable. Maybe.

That said, I did eventually get the W56 wrestled in there, with a helper. It took about two days, three jacks, two ratchet straps, and a chain. No, it was neither safe nor fun. Yes, with proper equipment it would have been a bit easier and safer.

I like the R series engines, and aside from the brake line issue I think the 22R will probably be a good fit in the engine bay; I haven't completed the swap so believe me at your own risk. I think a V6 might be kind of a tight fit side-to-side in the Rocky engine bay, so measure carefully. That said, a V6 in a Rocky would be cool...

As I said, I've seen a couple v6s put in, and in speaking with a Suzuki guy, he suggested the Suzuki V6 but was also clear that they were somewhat fragile, which I definitely don't want. I DO want the reputation of the 22 if I can, or something similar.

I don't expect you to get under it with a tape measure, but how much space do you have between the tail of the tranny/tcase and the rear axle? And...did you keep the stock axle anyway?

[Lewis Hein]

I'm keeping the stock axle for now. I would guess about 30 inches maximum for the rear driveline; It's definitely shorter than the front driveline will be. If I can even fit a front driveline in, because that torsion bar cross-member might foul it.

I might have to notch the cross member and then build a frame with a hole to strengthen the notch but let the driveline through.

[Toybrota]

I'm quickly learning how to do "stuff," but some time ago, I had an older Impala with a carb...and I never could get that to run correctly. How "easy" is it to get a carb to run correctly? I will never plan to rock crawl where I would get into bizarre angles where I need fuel injection.

I have to replace my entire dash and I have many wiring problems as it sits now. It drives fine (as far as electrical) but I have little gremlins everywhere. As I see this being something that would take two years, wiring isn't the end of the world, I like simple, too. I had just got the dual batteries in and running so I should have juice for anything as needed.

I just pulled this off of Wikipedia:
"A popular modification to the early 22R is to use a 20R head. This head has smaller combustion chambers, giving a higher compression ratio, which then allows more power to be developed. The 20R head can also flow better than the 22R head, which improves high RPM power. The 20R head is a simple bolt-on modification for the pre-1985 block, but also requires the use of the 20R intake manifold, making it almost impossible (there’s a lot of matching necessary) to use with the 22RE EFI system. For blocks 1985 and onwards, further modifications are required."

Is this a true thing? I figure if I'm doing a swap, I don't want to have exactly the same power as before...a bump would make it worthwhile. 150 is the max I would want to do.

The Weber 32/36 is a very easy carb to work on and tune. I'm not pro by any means, but I've gotten mine fairly dialed. Seeing near 20mpg (heavier Toyota Hilux). The stock carb (22R) is more complex, works better on inclines. The Weber works great on inclines with modifications. The Weber is also stupid simple, you'll pinpoint issues easily. Stock carb (22R) could give you a symptom when it could be a handful of issues. I am running a AFR gauge (recommended to see mixture) and I bought a jet kit. You'll need a jet kit to get yours tuned unless you are within 0-2500' of elevation (supposed stock jets) from what I've read.

And yes, the 20R/22R hybrid is a popular option. I think it's important to think about what you want in a motor before going that route. It is getting harder to locate a 20R head. There's definitely benefits to running it. There are handfuls of those with more experience than me on those as well.

Maybe I'm just a Toyota snob, but I think the 22R is a great motor for small and light 4WD vehicles. I would definitely be putting one in mine if I was doing a swap.

Other options, TDI swap out of a VW? Tried and liked by those who do it in Toyota trucks.
Samurai/sidekick engine? Little power, small. Parts availability pretty great.
Toyota 3Y or 4Y. Could be cool, forklift motor. Good parts availability. Found in Toyota vans/Hilux/forklifts.
GM V6. Tons of parts readily available nearly everywhere.




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[utherjorge [OP]]

The two successful swaps I saw on WARFS (the Daihatsu fan site) used 22Rs.

I don't think in Pennsylvania I could swap in a diesel for this, though I would likely do one of the older VW ones that is mechanical.

I mentioned the 3.0 Toy V6 that I never saw get finished.

There's an ongoing SR20 swap in Australia I'm following, but she is turning hers into a rally car and might get it to AWD, but currently it's rwd only. There will be no lo range, something due to the shape of the motor and driveline issues.

Saw a guy in Malaysia that put a tiny Honda in it, but B-motors spin backwards and I don't know how he did that.

Myron at Zuk Offroad is the guy who said a Suzuki motor can be done (4 or 6) but they can be fragile.

Another suggestion I saw (ut have never seen attempted) is a Miata motor. I have seen somewhere that you could mount a Toyota tcase to it somehow, but again, I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

I did see small Ford Ranger motors suggested, but I have never, ever liked any Ford I have ever driven or thought much of them. Sure, my time was in a Tempo. Isn't that enough for anyone?

Ecotec 4s or the small Vortecs are a thought, as I have now seen a bunch (after looking) of 2800 or 2900 Vortecs put in a Samurai, so they must fit.

Actually, since the Rocky is so weird, I have been searching for Sammie swaps to see what's out there.

[utherjorge [OP]]

If I'm looking for a carbed 22R, what years should I be looking for? I believe I know where there is a 20R motor...but I can't vouch for the shape it's in.

[toyodaaddict]

All years of 22r are good 81-95. Earlier years, pre 85 i think , have dual row timing chains. 85+ may be best if you ever have to rebuild it 

I put a 20r/L45?/toy axles in a samurai. The 20r was a good power upgrade over the samurai engine. The 20r is a tough motor. I wouldnt count it out ,if you can get a good deal on one

I would guess a 20r/22r-re/2rz/3rz could all be made to fit. There is an engine the samurai guys like a lot. It comes out of the tracker or sidekick, i cant remember. Good luck

[utherjorge [OP]]

All years of 22r are good 81-95. Earlier years, pre 85 i think , have dual row timing chains. 85+ may be best if you ever have to rebuild it 

I put a 20r/L45?/toy axles in a samurai. The 20r was a good power upgrade over the samurai engine. The 20r is a tough motor. I wouldnt count it out ,if you can get a good deal on one

I would guess a 20r/22r-re/2rz/3rz could all be made to fit. There is an engine the samurai guys like a lot. It comes out of the tracker or sidekick, i cant remember. Good luck

One of the comments before stated that going carbed would eliminate the wiring issues, which I guess I would go with a 22r then, pre-1984?

I truly don't mind giving anything a shot, engine wise, and I'm not getting a lot of bites regarding a GM motor, and I have no problems with Toyota stuff. But aside from a computer swap/shenanigans, I felt I should decide on a motor (as much as I can) before then trying to handle the wiring, even in theory. I thought the motor was all good so I added dual batteries and a winch on the front end, so I added 200lbs or so there...I want to be mindful of how much an engine weighs.

The Rocky has 7in Toyota clone differentials in it. When you put in Toy axles, did you go 7 or 8, or something else?

[Rockcrawlintoy]

what about the grand vitara motor. Zuk guys swap them in and it is a similar sized rig.

[utherjorge [OP]]

Not against that at all, but in speaking with a Suzuki guy, his own claim was that the Zuk engines can be more fragile. That brought me back here.

So, if I go carbed and "simple," seems like it's a 20R or 22R. I simply don't know how hard it would be to tie in a newer 4 cylinder with the Rocky's electrics/electronics.

[toyodaaddict]

One of the comments before stated that going carbed would eliminate the wiring issues, which I guess I would go with a 22r then, pre-1984?

I truly don't mind giving anything a shot, engine wise, and I'm not getting a lot of bites regarding a GM motor, and I have no problems with Toyota stuff. But aside from a computer swap/shenanigans, I felt I should decide on a motor (as much as I can) before then trying to handle the wiring, even in theory. I thought the motor was all good so I added dual batteries and a winch on the front end, so I added 200lbs or so there...I want to be mindful of how much an engine weighs.

The Rocky has 7in Toyota clone differentials in it. When you put in Toy axles, did you go 7 or 8, or something else?

22r (carburetor) was available 81-95. I think they where rare by 95 but my aunt had a 95 22r 2wd pickup. The Tacoma was released midway through 95 bringing an end to the 22r/re.

The 20r was very easy to wire up , 22r should be the same.  All emissions are eliminated and i use the stock carb. It runs great.

I believe the 22r weighs in the ball park of 300-350 lbs. The zuk options would likely be lighter.

I used toy 8" axles. All parts where left overs from toyota 4x4 pickups.

[utherjorge [OP]]

As I look for "stuff" regarding this whole thing, I have seen the following sort of stuff suggested:

1. The 20R is a very strong, durable motor that "won't quit," and is "better" than a 22R.

2. A 20R can be "built" to make more power without ruining it.

3. Later 20Rs use a mechanical fuel pump. Not sure if that's better or worse than the early 20R with an electrical pump.

I had never thought of a 20R (I didn't really know about them, to be honest). Should I even think about a 20 vs. a 22?

[redneckcustoms13]

In stock form a 22r makes a negligible 10 more hp. The carb is more finicky. 20r carb is super simple with the water choke.

[emsvitil]

A 20R or 22R would be fine, whatever you can find.    Should be lots out there, as the Celica and Corona also used them.

[Toybrota]

Seems like the general consensus is to get a 20R/22R. I think you'd be very happy with the outcome if you did!

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[utherjorge [OP]]

I agree with a 20/22R. Everything I'm seeing that talks about how bulletproof the 20 is might lead me to go that way. A check of one easy place (Car-Part.com) shows the same place north of Buffalo with each types there, and I haven't even called the local places not tied into CP. I know there's a 20 near me, but that truck is sitting in the mud, with the engine touching mud for at least a decade.

I don't mean reading links that you all come up with; if any of you have a checklist or site or whatever that has suggestions for how not to get hosed as a I get a used engine, I'm all ears. I am definitely gun shy about spending money, getting one home, and finding out that "oh by the way, the block is cracked/head's been decked 9 times" etc. I'm a teacher, so I'm all about reading!

[Toybrota]

I agree with a 20/22R. Everything I'm seeing that talks about how bulletproof the 20 is might lead me to go that way. A check of one easy place (Car-Part.com) shows the same place north of Buffalo with each types there, and I haven't even called the local places not tied into CP. I know there's a 20 near me, but that truck is sitting in the mud, with the engine touching mud for at least a decade.

I don't mean reading links that you all come up with; if any of you have a checklist or site or whatever that has suggestions for how not to get hosed as a I get a used engine, I'm all ears. I am definitely gun shy about spending money, getting one home, and finding out that "oh by the way, the block is cracked/head's been decked 9 times" etc. I'm a teacher, so I'm all about reading!

I cannot stress enough on how buying a used motor and using it is a bad idea without knowing the mechanical history of it. Any motor you buy, tear it down. Be prepared to rebuild any motor you find.

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[utherjorge [OP]]

I understand and agree totally. In fact, NOT doing this is why I'm here in the first place. I thought I did enough...but obviously did not.

I'm now searching local non-index salvaged yards, but I've got to find a good link for what to do when I travel to that yard. I mentioned I found an early 20R already....but at least the bottom end has been in mud for ages. I supposed I could buy something reconditioned (I found sites that sell both 22Rs and 20Rs refurbed...I don't know how that compares with the overall cost of finding something in the pick-n-pull) but I don't know which is best.

In my searches I've found enough tales of caution to truly be unsure which is best to avoid getting hosed. I am truly in undiscovered territory on this one.

[Toybrota]

I understand and agree totally. In fact, NOT doing this is why I'm here in the first place. I thought I did enough...but obviously did not.

I'm now searching local non-index salvaged yards, but I've got to find a good link for what to do when I travel to that yard. I mentioned I found an early 20R already....but at least the bottom end has been in mud for ages. I supposed I could buy something reconditioned (I found sites that sell both 22Rs and 20Rs refurbed...I don't know how that compares with the overall cost of finding something in the pick-n-pull) but I don't know which is best.

In my searches I've found enough tales of caution to truly be unsure which is best to avoid getting hosed. I am truly in undiscovered territory on this one.

Remanufactured or refurbished motors are garbage. There is not a single company I would trust other than 22RE Performance for a rebuilt motor. Companies like Jasper may be ok, I haven't read much on them in particular.
The cheap rebuilt 20R/22R motors are definitely attractive, in terms of price. You will be incredibly disappointed with them.
The biggest killer I've seen personally on 22R's is poor replacement parts, and poor machining (or lack there of)
All cheap reman motors use cheap parts (if they get changed at all).

I say go for a used motor from a yard, and rebuild it yourself. You will end up being surprised how easy (and fun!) Rebuilding a motor can be.
I paid about $850 for all the machining costs for my motor. You can undoubtedly get it cheaper, and throw a decent bottom end together.
LC engineering sells fantastic rebuild kits with good parts, like Safety brand engine bearings.

But, there's always the rare chance you may come across a motor for sale that's in the truck running. If you do, test it and see. I'd feel comfortable running one in my rig if I can test it first.

The 20R will be very simple to run. You could do aftermarket ignition INSTEAD of tracking down the Toyota igniter/coil.
For a carb, I'd recommend a Weber 32/36. Others mentioned the stock carb would work, and they are right. More flexibility in tuning with the Weber, but you may like the stock carb. Find what works best for you.

I'm stoked to see where this goes!

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[emsvitil]

Once upon a time you could get used engines from Japan.    They had to be replaced because of Japanese emission laws...…….

Do they still have them for 20R/22Rs ?   (or other R series engines)

[utherjorge [OP]]

I don't know. That's an option I can look into. I know when i was looking for used Daihatsus, the price (where I could find one) for a used HD-E, the motor in a US Rocky, was ridiculous...and while they hold up well in the Philippines, and Malaysia, they also have a million of them still running, and you can find all sorts of unobtanium over there, like stronger forged pistons, different cams, and some suspension goodies, like LSDs for the rear diff and a few companies making ball joint spacers. This sh*t flows like water over there.

Of course, when the motor grenades, they can simply throw a new block in, because they have those, too, like in South America: some places are still stocking NOS Dai parts, and they do not want to share, and for the few that share, they do not want to ship.

Whatever I use for this will be "the next big thing." I have to figure out the tranny and tcase now. I have the new rear springs, which should fit. The front leafs from a 60-series will be the new rears (they fit! so says blokes in Aussie-land! With pics!) and I'll probably try to figure out a rear I can use lockers with. I would like to keep the front suspension stock for now, with the ball joint spacers I had made and Tough Dog torsion bars I have...to try to level it.

I made a list of all the old school parts places within an hour or so, so I'll start calling this week to see who has what. I just wish I had found that 20R in better shape. Loads of 22REs, some other weird stuff, but the 20R with a stick (with a flatbed!) is 10 minutes from my house.

[Lewis Hein]

The 20R likes to rev higher, which will likely play nice with the Daihatsu's 5.29 rear end.

[Snowtoy]

If you have 22re's available locally, you could just convert one to a carb, might even be able to swap parts with someone here or on another board wanting to go to efi.

As to the rigs w/a 22r after '89, all the ones I have seen were in 2wd single cabs only

[utherjorge [OP]]

Assuming that swapping backwards to become a 22r from an RE is that simple, that same yard within spitting distance of me with the 20r sitting in mid has 22res all over. In particular is this nice little pickup with a rotted frame but the engine appeared to be clean. Following some things I saw online regarding "what to look for" at a junkyard, looking for something with damage that would have junked it vs. something mechanical might bode well for me. I also don't know what I should expect to pay for a junkyard 20r/22r.

[Snowtoy]

It would be that simple, main things to swap would be intake/carb, distributor(need vacuum advance)/igniter, and address the fuel pressure.
 
You might send Erick561 a pm, and see what he has available for carb parts, too see what the additional costs would be.

As for what to expect paying for a 22re at wrecking yard, would assume $500-1000, the last one I bought was about 12yrs ago, and as I recall, I paid about $400.

[utherjorge [OP]]

Snowtoy, thanks for the reply. I started calling around in earnest today. The closest yard to me has a 22RE for $600. They are good guys (he lets me down into the yard and I've gotten parts from him before) and he ended our conversation with "We'll take care of you." He claims the engine ran well but the truck got junked due to a gas leak. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmkay. I'll have to check it out.

Assuming that this one works fine, I now have new questions for anyone that is willing to continue helping. Sadly, I must have known my truck would explode, because in early January I posted about a new rear axle. I posted this below about what I could find near me:

Two V6 8-inch axles (both 1989s, a 4 Runner and an Xtracab) and a 4-cyl 8 inch (4x4 short bed, also a 1989).

Should I try to grab a 4 cylinder 8 inch or a 6 cylinder 8 inch? The 1989s close to me should all be the right width for me, within an inch of the stock Rocky, which matters for the new rear springs.

[Snowtoy]

That is a good price, would've thought they would be closer to $1k. 

If the axles aren't attached anymore, you will need to check the gear ratio, they could be anything from 4.10's-4.88's

The V6 diffs are stronger, 4 pinion vs 2.