Author Topic: Electric Fan and Dual Row Timing Chain conversion  (Read 639 times)

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Brazos Bill

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Electric Fan and Dual Row Timing Chain conversion
« on: Mar 28, 2019, 06:53:27 PM »
I am going to be pulling my front dif (IFS) to regear and while it is off figured that it is a good time to replace the timing chain which is making some noise and has not been replaced in years.  In researching parts I came across the LCE Dual Row Timing Chain Conversion Kit.  Their claim that this chain will last the life of the engine is impressive.  The redundancy in it seems to make sense, even though I have not had any timing chain problems - just looking to prevent any.  I am looking for feedback from anyone who has run the dual row chain.  What is your experience?  Is it an upgrade that is worth doing?  Are there any negative experiences or reasons not to go this route?

I am also considering installing the Black Magic Electric Fan Kit(S-Blade) to remove the fan drag on the motor and have it run on a thermostat instead of running all the time.  I will put a switch on it to shut it off for water crossings (though I doubt I will use this very often).  Again, I am looking for anyone that has switched to an electric fan.  Any pros or cons?  Do you recommend the change from the standard belt driven fan?

Thanks for your feedback! :wave:
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Toybrota

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I run the factory dual row on my early 22R (81') and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's way more robust over the single row, and a definite upgrade for any motor. I've heard the plastic guides fail as soon as 30K miles.
Then again, a solid single row with the metal guides would do just fine. That's what I run in my other truck, 20K miles and no issues.
I think it's more of a convince thing, don't have to ever worry about a failed guide again.

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H8PVMNT

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I ran an electric fan on my 3RZ for a while.  I had a couple times where the fan quit running due to wiring issues.  I did the switch for water crossings as well and I found it was just one more thing to remember.  I didn't think it made a real world difference in power and it was just one more thing that could go wrong.  I went back to the simplicity of the stock fan clutch ever since.

The dual row timing chain is excellent though.
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I think the dual row kit is a bit pricey...……..   But I did it anyway.  (I had the broken guides, and the chain skipped a couple of teeth on the lower crank pulley)

I don't think the single row steel backed chain guides were available yet when I did it.    So that is a cheaper option.

But the single row steel guides won't solve the tensioner problem.       The single row chain cuts thru tensioner.    Which aggravates the rattling chain problem.


To make up for the pricey double row kit, I just used the biggest summit-brand electric fan that would fit and a variable temp sensor I got from JC Whitney.    Adjusted fan so that it will cycle on and off with engine idling at about 200, 70-80 degrees outside.    Also comes on with AC.  A lot cheaper than black magic kit.


Used a relay on fan so that temp sensor doesn't get electrical load (also made it easy for AC to trigger fan)
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Gnarly4X

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I have no experience with the dual t-chains.  Most comments seem to be positive and recommended by Toyota engine builders like 22RE Performance.

On the electric radiator fan conversion….

I have read negative and positive experiences.

I never had any issues with my stock fan and fan clutch - catastrophic failure.  I wheeled just about every terrain, including some deep water (about at the top of the tires) crossings.

If I were to install an electric fan in place of the stock belt driven fan, I’d have a piezoelectric buzzer and a red light circuit on my dash (like I had on my sand rail to let me know when the alternator quit spinning), so I’d know when the fan quit working.  If the electric fan fails, overheating an engine and toasting the head and blowing a head gasket is NOT worth the risk for me.

If an electric fan fails while on a trail or highway, what do you do?

I would think that on 96hp or 116hp 22, the electric fan would provide a noticeable reduction on engine drag.

Gnarls
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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I don’t believe tensioner is the primary or most common cause of t-chain and guide failure.  The single chain and dual chain will, over time, wear a slot in the face of tensioner.  However, the tensioner does have enough range of piston movement and spring and oil pressure to take up the chain wear and slight amount of chain stretch.

The reason the timing chain starts slapping on the drivers side guide is caused by the top bolt hole fracturing.  This allows the guide to slip off of the guide bolt and then the chain can slap against the broken guide.  Eventually the guide breaks off, then the chain can start grinding on the inside edge of the timing cover.  That’s when the noise should be very noticeable at start up.

The design of the plastic guides, factory dealer replacement or aftermarket copies is very poor. It has multiple very obvious design flaws.  In fact, it is hard to imagine that the Toyota engineers designed such an obviously badly produced part.  In this interference overhead cam engine, the timing chain system is a critical component for longevity and preventing catastrophic engine failure.

It is extremely difficult to understand why, after absolutely knowing that the guide fails and how it fails, Toyota did NOT re-design it. 

The metal guide bolt holes will not break, so they eliminate the guide moving and allowing the chain to slap.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless and useless.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Mar 30, 2019, 09:04:02 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

toyodaaddict

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I prefer the reliability of the factory fan.

Years ago, I went with a dual row chain in my dd. I did not when I rebuilt the engine for my 1980. I think a single row chain is plenty reliable. If the motor has miles on it, a new, quality, single row chain with metal guides will probably out last the motor. Wont it?

Also, a dual row chain is more rotating weight, is it not?
 
Im no motor expert but these are my thoughts as of this time
80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,85 front axle,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     Also 84 toy DD 22R 4.88s,33'' toyo mt'z, marlin clutch,4inch lift/63's, HA drivelines.

Snowtoy

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It is extremely difficult to understand why, after absolutely knowing that the guide fails and how it fails, Toyota did NOT re-design it.

Perhaps due to the plastic guide wearing which allows a worn chain to start to slap the t-cover, letting you know it is time to replace the chain, whereas  a metal guide wont?  The last rig I picked up cheap due to broken t-chain had metal guides, and a repaired T-cover where the previous chain wore through it.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Snowtoy

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I am also considering installing the Black Magic Electric Fan Kit(S-Blade) to remove the fan drag on the motor and have it run on a thermostat instead of running all the time.  I will put a switch on it to shut it off for water crossings (though I doubt I will use this very often).  Again, I am looking for anyone that has switched to an electric fan.  Any pros or cons?  Do you recommend the change from the standard belt driven fan?

Thanks for your feedback! :wave:

While the stock fan spins all the time, the only time I notice a power loss when pulling a grade with the A/C on.

The black magic fan is a good fan, I have been running this one have been running one in my '90 w/3.0 for 21yrs now, keyed into the ignition.  It has two power sources, one that runs off its own t-stat, and one that can be run manually.
https://www.summitracing.com/nv/parts/flx-160
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

EASYRYDERDANGER

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I run factory fan and an electric 16" fan in front of a two core radiator.  Its wired to come on at a set temp and when a/c on.  87 22re...

Brazos Bill [OP]

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On the electric radiator fan conversion….

I have read negative and positive experiences.

If an electric fan fails while on a trail or highway, what do you do?

I would think that on 96hp or 116hp 22, the electric fan would provide a noticeable reduction on engine drag.

Gnarls

Well that's the $64 question - how reliable is the electric and will it increase the engine power?  From most of the comments it sounds pretty reliable.  The power increase is uncertain.  I know, I know, how much extra power can you get out the little 100hp 22R?  I just figure it is a reasonable upgrade to consider.

Thanks!    :)
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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I run the factory dual row on my early 22R (81') and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's way more robust over the single row, and a definite upgrade for any motor.

I think it's more of a convince thing, don't have to ever worry about a failed guide again.


Good to know - I realize the older motors run the dual chains.  Not sure why Toyota changed to the single chain.  I know it is a bit pricy, but seems worth it if I don't have to mess with it again.

Thanks! :clap2:
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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While the stock fan spins all the time, the only time I notice a power loss when pulling a grade with the A/C on.

The black magic fan is a good fan, I have been running this one have been running one in my '90 w/3.0 for 21yrs now, keyed into the ignition.  It has two power sources, one that runs off its own t-stat, and one that can be run manually.
https://www.summitracing.com/nv/parts/flx-160

My 87 doesn't have A/C  :maddest:

Need it in New Mexico and Utah in the summer...

May look into adding it in the future.
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Snowtoy

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Well that's the $64 question - how reliable is the electric and will it increase the engine power?  From most of the comments it sounds pretty reliable.  The power increase is uncertain.  I know, I know, how much extra power can you get out the little 100hp 22R?  I just figure it is a reasonable upgrade to consider.

Thanks!    :)

If you do go with the electric, you could always carry the oem fan as a back-up on the trail, wouldn't take more than about 10-15 minutes to pull the electric fan and bolt up the oem one.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Gnarly4X

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IF.... I were to spend the time and money to reduce parasitic drag and gain some power and help with fuel mileage, I'd seriously look at these products:

https://daviescraig.com/product-search?category_id=&criteria=   :yesnod:

Watch the video.... 

https://daviescraig.com/product/ewp80-electric-water-pump-12v-8105/ewp80-electric-water-pump-12v-8105

An electric water pump AND an electric radiator fan would probably be very noticeable on 22R or 22RE.  :thumbs:

Cost/Performance (reliability) is always a consideration.

Gnarls.  :driving:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Brazos Bill [OP]

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If you do go with the electric, you could always carry the oem fan as a back-up on the trail, wouldn't take more than about 10-15 minutes to pull the electric fan and bolt up the oem one.

Didn't think of that - great idea! :smack:

Thanks!
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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IF.... I were to spend the time and money to reduce parasitic drag and gain some power and help with fuel mileage, I'd seriously look at these products:

https://daviescraig.com/product-search?category_id=&criteria=   :yesnod:

Watch the video.... 

https://daviescraig.com/product/ewp80-electric-water-pump-12v-8105/ewp80-electric-water-pump-12v-8105

An electric water pump AND an electric radiator fan would probably be very noticeable on 22R or 22RE.  :thumbs:

Cost/Performance (reliability) is always a consideration.

Gnarls.  :driving:

Watched the video and found some others as well.  Thanks for the input - this is a really interesting idea - I have not heard of an electric water pump before!  They claim an increase of 13 HP and an increase of 10% in gas mileage (not sure if this will be accurate on the 22R) while providing better engine cooling.

Anybody know someone that has done this (for reliability references)?  It’s not a cheap proposition - a quick search on line looks like about $500 for the EWP, Fan, controller and mounting kits. 

Their explanation for the improved cooling makes sense:

https://www.jegs.com/i/Davies-Craig/317/DC-8907/10002/-1

The mechanical water pump is one of the last mechanical components of the modern engine which has long been considered an inefficient component that was designed as an accessory from the very first engines. A mechanical belt driven pump installed on your car engines runs at the same speed as the engine regardless of how hot the engine is. Example: when traveling at high speeds down the freeway, the engine require less cooling as ram air is naturally cooling the engine however, the engine speed is high as is the mechanical water pump thus providing excessive cooling whilst draining the engine of power. Then in heavy traffic in high ambient, the engine is idling or slow and so is the belt driven mechanical pump, even though in this condition, extra coolant flow is required to cool the engine.

With an LCD EWP Controller, the speed of the pump is managed by the controller, which varies the supply voltage to the pump and so varies the speed of the pump, hunting for a target temperature. When the engine reaches the target temperature the controller locks on, constantly changing the pump speed with traffic and throttle conditions, maintaining the target temperature independent of the engine speed.

The important improvement for your vehicle comes from the fact that most of the power the mechanical pump takes from the engine can be reclaimed with the use of an EWP hence the fuel savings. By removing the parasitic power losses of belt-driven water pumps, the EWP may provide up to 10kw of extra power and additional fuel savings. The engine power used by the mechanical pump increases as the cube of its speed – so when the mechanical pump speed doubles from idle speed say; 600 rpm to 1200 rpm, the power it takes increases by eight times. Then another eight times going to 2400 rpm, and so on up to maximum engine speed. It is this extra power and torque that is released by deleting the mechanical pump that provides the fuel savings that is estimated to be 3.5% to 10%.

Major European Manufacturers have implemented EWP's as standard issue on a number of their vehicles, it has been documented to show that and EWP uses 90% less energy than conventional systems, i.e.: the mechanical water pump. Other advantages will include lower emissions by virtue of faster engine warm up, better engine temperature management, eliminating engine heat soak and improved engine life.

Weight reduction is a key requirement of any automotive manufacturer seeking fuel savings and our EWP will weight around 900 grams up to 1,151 grams (dependent on EWP Type) compared to a typical mechanical pump at 3 to 4 kg. Not only is their EWP considerably lighter when matched against the mechanical pump but it would also be replacing several outdated components with one environmentally friendly product which once again helps improve performance and fuel consumption.


Any thoughts?
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Gnarly4X

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... - I have not heard of an electric water pump before! 

Hey Brazos Bill....

I am a little surprised you did not know about electric water pumps.  NASCAR has been running them for many years.  For NASCAR every ounce is calculated, so weight becomes a major concern.  e-pumps are lighter and reduce drag.

There are some serious manufacturers out there...

https://www.meziere.com/Products/Cooling-System-Products/Pumps-Electric.aspx   They apparently offer 1 replacement e-pump for a Toyota engine.

https://www.moroso.com/alternator-and-vacuum-pump-mounting-kit-ford-289-302-351w63824/

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Mar 31, 2019, 05:11:41 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Hey Brazos Bill....

I am a little surprised you did not know about electric water pumps.  NASCAR has been running them for many years.  For NASCAR every ounce is calculated, so weight becomes a major concern.  e-pumps are lighter and reduce drag.


Gnarls.

Thanks Gnarly,

I'm not a big time car guy - just like getting out in the woods in my truck and trying to make it capable for the trails I drive.  Thanks to experienced guys like you, noobs like me can keep learning!  Thanks for sharing your insights!  :clap:

Found a  lengthy thread on this setup on an Australian site.  An interesting read:

http://www.ausjeepoffroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93989

I am noodling on this as it seems like a worthwhile upgrade.

1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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I ran an electric fan on my 3RZ for a while.  I had a couple times where the fan quit running due to wiring issues.  I did the switch for water crossings as well and I found it was just one more thing to remember.  I didn't think it made a real world difference in power and it was just one more thing that could go wrong.  I went back to the simplicity of the stock fan clutch ever since.

The dual row timing chain is excellent though.

Yeah, I understand about the switch for water crossings - mostly looking to remove the load on the engine.  Gnarly4x made a suggestion to go with an electric water pump as well - taking a look at that...
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

 
 
 
 
 

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