Author Topic: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question  (Read 1460 times)

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Brazos Bill

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To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« on: Mar 05, 2019, 07:21:29 PM »
I am tired of being “That Guy”

I have a 1987 Toyota short bed with IFS.  Over the years I have grown comfortable driving increasingly difficult terrain.  I am not a hard core rock crawler – I find extended rock crawling tedious and boring.  But here is the deal:  I am tired of being “That Guy” – you know - the one who takes 4 or 5 tries to get over an obstacle on the trail, bouncing and spinning wheels, slowing everyone down.  I don’t want to be “that guy” any more.  I have run almost every trail in the San Juan Mountains and many others in Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah (including Moab) and often find some obstacle on the trail that is a challenge for my truck.  It just kills the day when I get frustrated trying to keep up.  I would never try Mickey's Hot Tub in Moab but would love to finally get up The Wall on Poughkeepsie Gulch in the San Juan's without a winch.

Over the years I have done a number of upgrades, only to have to do more, resulting in a lot of money down the drain.  I went from stock to 31” tires, then regeared both diffs, put in LSD’s front and back hoping that would help – pretty much useless.  I installed an Old Man Emu suspension lift and went to 33” tires.  Since then, I have had no problems with clearance and approach or departure angles and really like the height and stance of the truck.  I like the current suspension, and the on and off road handling in general.

I have concluded that my best option at this point to install new Diffs with 4.88 gears and ARB lockers.  I will also install the dual ultimate transfer case.  I hope that these improvements will finally enable me to get over those occasional obstacles that have been frustrating in the past.  The only thing holding me back from placing the order is the debate about doing a Solid Axel Swap.  I do not want to spend a ton of money on upgrades again, only to find that the lack of articulation up front continues to limit me and then have to spend a ton more to replace it all.  I am not a mechanic and will not do the upgrades myself, so I am trying to do this in the right sequence to keep the overall cost reasonable.

No question that the SAS will provide much better articulation and tire contact with the ground providing a much more capable rig.  However, given the cost for the other upgrades and that I do not have unlimited funds, I really don’t want to spend the large bundle required for a SAS.  In addition, I do not want my rig to be on stilts for the SAS (which most are) – I do not want to increase the vehicle height, deal with increased drive line angles and do not want larger tires.  I drive on the highway to trails and use the truck as an occasional daily driver in town.  Also, I really don’t want to change the on road handling adversely with the SAS.  I have read many opinions on SAS vs IFS and for the reasons listed above I am not converted to SAS just yet.

Here are my questions:

Am I wasting my money on the new diffs, lockers, and dual transfer case without the SAS?  I don’t want to waste money on all this only to have to redo it all over again with a SAS.   Will these improvements be effective staying with the IFS?

Is an extended travel IFS upgrade a viable option for better articulation after doing diffs, lockers, etc?  (I know it will not provide as much articulation as SAS)
Does XIFS cost more, less, or the same as a SAS?

Should I just bite the bullet and do a SAS before the other upgrades?  If so, can it be done without increasing the vehicle height and messing up the on road handling?

Thanks for your advice!
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

blackdiamond

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #1 on: Mar 05, 2019, 08:28:11 PM »
In your shoes I'd go with a dual ultimate transfer case gearing and lockers front a rear.  If there's an axle upgrade it might be worth considering with the added stress of a locker.

In my experience, a rear locker is far superior to two limited slips.  I've wheeled Moab and in the San Juans and there's no need to go SAS unless you want to rock crawl. 

If it wasn't such a pain to change a 2nd time, I'd almost suggest keeping the open front differential and trying the low gears with a rear locker.  It would far outperform your current setup.
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

Moab Tested & Rubicon Approved

andykrow

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #2 on: Mar 06, 2019, 11:33:28 AM »
My advice: Sell the diffs you have now, grab a set of factory 4.88's, stick a lunchbox locker in the rear, then get some ball joint spacers and relax the tbars to bring the front back down. The BJ spacers will give you some added travel and the locker in the back will GREATLY improve your wheeling. I wheeled that setup for years with 33's and it will take you far. It's a cheap upgrade. You might not feel like you need the dual cases once you get those diffs geared lower and you have real traction in the back.

If you decide you need a front locker I would do the SAS. It is much more durable than the IFS diff, far easier to get into for maintenance, and the highway ride is fine. IFS is a bit nicer on fast rough gravel or desert stuff but it isn't a drastic difference, especially if you put some decent shocks on the SAS setup. You can keep it low with some work. Also, you'll get your money back selling the front factory 4.88 if need be. (The money you spent on that diff, that is.)
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2019, 11:50:02 AM by andykrow »
85 4runner, 22re, 5spd, Ultimate crawler, Alcan lift that is too high, 35s, ARBs.

Snowtoy

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #3 on: Mar 06, 2019, 03:32:48 PM »
Based on what you are wheeling and how long you have wheeled IFS, no need for an SAS, dual cases and a dual ARB's will be a night and day difference over what you have now, likely allowing you to wheel over the areas now with one attempt over 3-5. 

If wanting to save money, I would run duals, regear/ARB for the rear diff, and just regear the front diff or install a factory 4.88 diff if you can find one, you may find you don't need a front ARB for the trails you run.

As far as being concerned about being "that guy" who slows others down, don't be, better to be the guy that slows others down, than the guy that stops them due to breaking their junk because they were driving the trail too fast.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

toyodaaddict

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #4 on: Mar 06, 2019, 03:50:31 PM »
Based on what you are wheeling and how long you have wheeled IFS, no need for an SAS, dual cases and a dual ARB's will be a night and day difference over what you have now, likely allowing you to wheel over the areas now with one attempt over 3-5. 

If wanting to save money, I would run duals, regear/ARB for the rear diff, and just regear the front diff or install a factory 4.88 diff if you can find one, you may find you don't need a front ARB for the trails you run.

As far as being concerned about being "that guy" who slows others down, don't be, better to be the guy that slows others down, than the guy that stops them due to breaking their junk because they were driving the trail too fast.
I like this.

 ARB/4.88 rear. Factory 4.88 open front and dual cases would be quite the upgrade. I dont know how much abuse a locked IFS diff would take. I don't think I'd want to put ARB money into an IFS diff either.
If that setup doesn't do it for you, it might be time for a solid axle



80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,85 front axle,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     Also 84 toy DD 22R 4.88s,33'' toyo mt'z, marlin clutch,4inch lift/63's, HA drivelines.

OVRAROK

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #5 on: Mar 06, 2019, 04:15:16 PM »
Solid axle for the win.... :biggthumpup:
Even the most primitive society, has an intimate respect for the insane.

Snowtoy

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #6 on: Mar 09, 2019, 09:05:26 PM »
I like this.

 ARB/4.88 rear. Factory 4.88 open front and dual cases would be quite the upgrade. I dont know how much abuse a locked IFS diff would take. I don't think I'd want to put ARB money into an IFS diff either.

The IFS will hold up if you ar mindful of what you are doing, similar to running stock birfs w/a locker and 37's.  I have a been running a tru-trac in my '91 w/35's for almost 12yrs now, and have yet to break either a CV or ring gear.  A buddy, who has wheeled rigs with portals/38's, tons/42's, and just about every other type of rig along the way, is currently wheeling his 2nd 3rd gen Runner w/IFS/ARB and 35's, and has managed to break just one CV wheeling the same trails he did with his other rigs.  At the time he broke it, he could have backed up and taken a better approach, unbinding the wheel, but decided to see what kind of abuse the CV could handle.

'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Snowtoy

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #7 on: Mar 09, 2019, 09:16:05 PM »

Is an extended travel IFS upgrade a viable option for better articulation after doing diffs, lockers, etc?  (I know it will not provide as much articulation as SAS)
Does XIFS cost more, less, or the same as a SAS?

No, not really, the most I would do given the type of wheeling you enjoy doing, would be to go with ball joint spacers, as mentioned above.  They will help to increase wheel travel a little, but with the increased travel you will tear the CV boot often, I usually tear 1-2/yr on my '91.

Quote
Should I just bite the bullet and do a SAS before the other upgrades?  If so, can it be done without increasing the vehicle height and messing up the on road handling?

It all depends on what you think you might do in the future.  If you are sure you will never want to wheel the hardest sections of the trail, or always take the hardest lines, then no, the expense of the SAS is not worth it, in capable hands, an IFS rig with what you are looking at adding will take you just about anywhere you need to go, as well as remaining nice and comfy on long trips to and from the trail.

If you do decide to go SAS, your best bet of keeping it low is as possible would be to start with a 2wd frame, a buddy's 2wd '91 on 37's had about the same entry height as my '90 IFS w/suspension lift om 33's.  The other option would be to rebuild the the front section of the frame, otherwise you are looking at the height of a standard SAS rig.


   


Of the 3 rigs, at 6'2", I would have hated having to get in and out of the rig on 35's often, either on or off the trail, just moving it around while working on it was annoying.

Given what you are looking at spending in upgrades, if you are not sure if you want to stick with IFS in the long run, you might want to consider if it is time to sell your current rig and buy an SA rig, w/the upgrades you are considering now, likely be money ahead.

'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

liveoak

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #8 on: Mar 10, 2019, 08:09:06 AM »
the least expensive option that would increase capability on an ifs rig would be to just do 4.7 single case gears and a rear locker.
« Last Edit: Mar 10, 2019, 08:17:57 AM by liveoak »
my 3rz swap. http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=97722.0

Let me start off with a basket of chips

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #9 on: Mar 10, 2019, 09:08:23 PM »
Thanks everyone for the good thoughts...  :biggthumpup:

Thanks for the kind words on being “that guy” Snowtoy.  The folks I wheel with have been very patient when I work through an obstacle and don’t rag on me.  Even with my current setup I have been able to get through most of them (even with a wheel or two in the air) without busting anything.  It is really my frustration that spoils it for me.

Everyone’s comments about leaving the front end open suggests that the IFS is not strong enough to put an ARB on the front.  I was already wondering about other components in the drive train that I should upgrade (axles, etc) when going to the dual transfer and lockers to handle the increased torque.

However, not locking the front diff opens an interesting possibility I had not considered before.  I could stick with the IFS for now, go with the dual case, regear and add an ARB in the rear and regear the front diff keeping the Detroit Limited Slip in the front as is.

Thanks for the photos and analysis on the height with the SAS Snowtoy.  That is exactly what I am trying to avoid – my truck is as high as I want it.  It is already difficult to get in and out and I am 6’3” tall…

Thanks Liveoak, I agree that the least expensive route is regearing the single case and adding the rear locker, but I am still leaning towards the dual transfer case in order to have the wide range of gears available on the trail. I don't want to be too low or too high.

If, after running this setup, I decide I still want better performance, I could either risk an ARB up front and be careful not to blow it out (maybe go with a twin stick to easily disengage for turns, etc) or go for the ultimate solution with the SAS and an ARB up front (if I want to put more $ into this rig).  This way, if I go SAS later, I am only out the cost of the front end regear.  Sound right?

Since I have never had full lockers, I have no idea how capable the rig will be with only a rear locker and LSD front.  I just assumed it would be best to have lockers both front and back.  Will just the rear locker make that much difference?

So, If I go this route - regear the front diff, do the dual case and rear locker & gears, what are the other drive line components I should plan on upgrading to avoid breakdowns on the trail?

Thanks again for your help!
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Lewis Hein

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #10 on: Mar 11, 2019, 11:43:51 AM »
In re a rear locker: I have limited experience, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but:

If you are open/open then anytime diagonally opposite wheels leave the ground, you lose all participation by the engine (obviously)

If you have LSD/LSD, the even if diagonally opposite wheels leave the ground, the engine still exerts a little force on the truck

But if you have lock/open or lock/anything, the engine has a rigid link to at least one wheel on the ground, unless an entire axle is in the air (it happens, but it's far less common). Often in good conditions (good tires, good surface, angles not too crazy etc) this one wheel is enough to move the truck.

(Obviously lock/lock gives you traction to as many wheels as are touching anything)

toyodaaddict

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #11 on: Mar 11, 2019, 01:12:01 PM »
I would describe a locked rear/open front vs open/open as a night and day difference. locked axles are a game changer, even if just the rear. I think the locked rear/LSD front will work well for you.

If you're not already, make sure to use solid pinion spacers.  Make sure your tcase mounts are in good shape. Other than that, I cant think of anything you need to plan on upgrading based on adding dual cases and a rear locker.  Actually, trail damage will probably be less likely. The cases and locker will allow you to get through obstacles with out having to "get on it" as much.


 

80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,85 front axle,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     Also 84 toy DD 22R 4.88s,33'' toyo mt'z, marlin clutch,4inch lift/63's, HA drivelines.

Snowtoy

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #12 on: Mar 11, 2019, 04:05:18 PM »

Everyone’s comments about leaving the front end open suggests that the IFS is not strong enough to put an ARB on the front.

Actually it is, if used as a tool, like I said I have a tru-trac in the front of mine, and have yet to break a CV, and it is engaged all the time. My plan is to go with an ARB at some point, don't care for the lockers mannerism w/the 4wd engaged on the highway.

Quote
If, after running this setup, I decide I still want better performance, I could either risk an ARB up front and be careful not to blow it out (maybe go with a twin stick to easily disengage for turns, etc) or go for the ultimate solution with the SAS and an ARB up front (if I want to put more $ into this rig).  This way, if I go SAS later, I am only out the cost of the front end regear.  Sound right?

No need for twins for a front ARB, all you have to do is flip a switch, most I know leave the ARB's disengaged unless needed.  Also, you wont be out the total cost of the regear, if you can't find an oem one, people still buy the 4.88 IFS sections.

Quote
Since I have never had full lockers, I have no idea how capable the rig will be with only a rear locker and LSD front.  I just assumed it would be best to have lockers both front and back.  Will just the rear locker make that much difference?

With the rear ARB, it will be night and day, kind of like going from the 28's to 33's, your first time out compared to having 100's of hours of seat time.  The one thing that I noticed with the ARB the first time I engaged it, is that you are pretty much along for the ride, as it wants to push you in  straight line.

Given how long you have been wheeling without either, you will likely use the the dual cases and ARB like tools, i.e., try a section with the stock low and open rear, can't get it, engage the ARB, or need to go slower, engage the dual case.

Quote
So, If I go this route - regear the front diff, do the dual case and rear locker & gears, what are the other drive line components I should plan on upgrading to avoid breakdowns on the trail?

Other than lengthening teh front/shortening the rear drtivelines, nothing needs to be done w/the trans/driveline/rear axle, it was over engineered to start with, and is pretty much used as a 1 ton drivetrain in most parts of the world. 

'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #13 on: Mar 11, 2019, 06:05:50 PM »
I would describe a locked rear/open front vs open/open as a night and day difference. locked axles are a game changer, even if just the rear. I think the locked rear/LSD front will work well for you.

If you're not already, make sure to use solid pinion spacers.  Make sure your tcase mounts are in good shape. Other than that, I cant think of anything you need to plan on upgrading based on adding dual cases and a rear locker.  Actually, trail damage will probably be less likely. The cases and locker will allow you to get through obstacles with out having to "get on it" as much.

Exactly what I am looking for...

BTW what are solid pinion spacers - first I have heard of them...
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

toyodaaddict

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #14 on: Mar 11, 2019, 06:23:20 PM »
Exactly what I am looking for...

BTW what are solid pinion spacers - first I have heard of them...

https://www.marlincrawler.com/differential/parts/solid-pinion-spacer-kit
Solid pinion spacer replaces the crush sleeve in the diff. It's the way to go, especially with a locker. 

80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,85 front axle,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     Also 84 toy DD 22R 4.88s,33'' toyo mt'z, marlin clutch,4inch lift/63's, HA drivelines.

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #15 on: Mar 11, 2019, 06:33:30 PM »
[
Actually it is, if used as a tool, like I said I have a tru-trac in the front of mine, and have yet to break a CV, and it is engaged all the time. My plan is to go with an ARB at some point, don't care for the lockers mannerism w/the 4wd engaged on the highway.


I have a tru-trac in my front end also and I have not broken a CV (much to my surprise) in spite of having to gun it, spin and bounce more than a few times.  I am really liking the idea of sticking with the IFS, regearing the front end, adding the dual transfer and the ARB in the back.  If I find I still need better results I can consider the ARB up front, used carefully as you suggest.

1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #16 on: Mar 11, 2019, 06:37:40 PM »
With the rear ARB, it will be night and day, kind of like going from the 28's to 33's, your first time out compared to having 100's of hours of seat time.  The one thing that I noticed with the ARB the first time I engaged it, is that you are pretty much along for the ride, as it wants to push you in  straight line.

Given how long you have been wheeling without either, you will likely use the the dual cases and ARB like tools, i.e., try a section with the stock low and open rear, can't get it, engage the ARB, or need to go slower, engage the dual case.


This is exactly what I am looking for – options when a tough spot comes up.  I could really use the tools as you describe them to work an obstacle.
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #17 on: Mar 11, 2019, 06:39:27 PM »
https://www.marlincrawler.com/differential/parts/solid-pinion-spacer-kit
Solid pinion spacer replaces the crush sleeve in the diff. It's the way to go, especially with a locker.

Thanks!  I will be sure to watch for these on this upgrade.
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #18 on: Mar 11, 2019, 06:45:52 PM »
Other than lengthening teh front/shortening the rear drtivelines, nothing needs to be done w/the trans/driveline/rear axle, it was over engineered to start with, and is pretty much used as a 1 ton drivetrain in most parts of the world. 


Everyone I talk to comments how over engineered the Hilux is.  Good to know that there is not a lot of other drive train upgrades that are needed.  All my Jeep friends have had to upgrade axles, etc. after they get that ‘pling’ gassing it with their V8’s.  Nice to putt along with my little inline 4 and an over engineered drive line!
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #19 on: Mar 11, 2019, 06:52:50 PM »
No need for twins for a front ARB, all you have to do is flip a switch, most I know leave the ARB's disengaged unless needed. 

Of course you are right – I forget that little switch that I will have for the ARB.  Easy on – easy off.  I guess the only real advantage of the twin stick is to get 2 low if I am too lazy to lock the hubs for 4 low.  I read that many people run 2 low on the trail a lot to minimize wear on the front end.  Seems like one more tool to add to the box for not too much money.  Can you run twins on the dual transfer cases?  Any other advantages other than 2 low?
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2019, 07:06:25 PM by Brazos Bill »
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #20 on: Mar 11, 2019, 07:04:30 PM »
In re a rear locker: I have limited experience, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but:

If you are open/open then anytime diagonally opposite wheels leave the ground, you lose all participation by the engine (obviously)

If you have LSD/LSD, the even if diagonally opposite wheels leave the ground, the engine still exerts a little force on the truck

But if you have lock/open or lock/anything, the engine has a rigid link to at least one wheel on the ground, unless an entire axle is in the air (it happens, but it's far less common). Often in good conditions (good tires, good surface, angles not too crazy etc) this one wheel is enough to move the truck.

(Obviously lock/lock gives you traction to as many wheels as are touching anything)

Yep - your description is accurate for my experience with open and LSD's.  That's why I will at least go with the ARB in the rear.

Thanks!
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

blackdiamond

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #21 on: Mar 11, 2019, 09:59:48 PM »
I wheeled the hard stuff in Moab in my ‘85 with a single 4.70:1 t-case, a Detroit locker in the rear, and a Truetrac in the front. It was the same as the Aussie locker front when I upgraded, but it did great.  With dual ultimate gearing you could easily power brake it a bit to help the front engage.
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

Moab Tested & Rubicon Approved

Snowtoy

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #22 on: Mar 11, 2019, 10:35:12 PM »
This is exactly what I am looking for – options when a tough spot comes up.  I could really use the tools as you describe them to work an obstacle.

That is how I use them, keeps the entire trail interesting for most trails, and in the snow gives me options before the strap, shovel or winch.

Quote
Everyone I talk to comments how over engineered the Hilux is.  Good to know that there is not a lot of other drive train upgrades that are needed.  All my Jeep friends have had to upgrade axles, etc. after they get that ‘pling’ gassing it with their V8’s.  Nice to putt along with my little inline 4 and an over engineered drive line!

Yes, the pre-Taco's are likely the most over engineered consumer automobile on the planet, which is why they became so popular on the trails.  You can upgrade the rear axles if you want, but if you are breaking them with dual cases/ARB/33's, you are doing something wrong, or right depending on your perspective.

Quote
I guess the only real advantage of the twin stick is to get 2 low if I am too lazy to lock the hubs for 4 low.  I read that many people run 2 low on the trail a lot to minimize wear on the front end.  Seems like one more tool to add to the box for not too much money.  Can you run twins on the dual transfer cases?  Any other advantages other than 2 low?

With dual cases, you will have the option of running in stock 2wd low, the front case is either H-N-L.  Twins on the rear t-case will give you the option of 4.7 2wd low, or stock+4.7 low.  I have used 2wd low when in stop and go traffic, but also used to use it w/o dual cases, I have also found 2wd low useful for backing up a trailer.  Not sure what you would use stock+4.7 2wd low for, but like with most things, better to have the option if/when you need it, then to need it and not have it.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

cbeers

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #23 on: Mar 12, 2019, 05:27:04 AM »
if you go duals i would recommend a new mount/skid plate
CB

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #24 on: Mar 12, 2019, 07:08:16 AM »
I wheeled the hard stuff in Moab in my ‘85 with a single 4.70:1 t-case, a Detroit locker in the rear, and a Truetrac in the front. It was the same as the Aussie locker front when I upgraded, but it did great.  With dual ultimate gearing you could easily power brake it a bit to help the front engage.

Yes, I have tried the power braking trick, but I usually can't do it without killing the engine.  Like you, I am thinking that with the dual ultimate I can do that to engage the front - another reason I am now leaning toward doing the rear ARB and just regearing the front.
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #25 on: Mar 12, 2019, 07:09:38 AM »
if you go duals i would recommend a new mount/skid plate
CB

Any suggestions for a source on this or does it need to be custom fabricated?
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #26 on: Mar 12, 2019, 07:16:16 AM »

With dual cases, you will have the option of running in stock 2wd low, the front case is either H-N-L.  Twins on the rear t-case will give you the option of 4.7 2wd low, or stock+4.7 low.  I have used 2wd low when in stop and go traffic, but also used to use it w/o dual cases, I have also found 2wd low useful for backing up a trailer.  Not sure what you would use stock+4.7 2wd low for, but like with most things, better to have the option if/when you need it, then to need it and not have it.

I didn't know that you can do 2wd low with the dual cases.  I have never seen a video or explanation on shifting with dual cases and how to use them for gearing options.  I understand the theory and have seen many videos of performance on the trail but how do you select shift locations in the cab with the duals?
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

Brazos Bill [OP]

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #27 on: Mar 12, 2019, 07:18:44 AM »
I wheeled the hard stuff in Moab in my ‘85 with a single 4.70:1 t-case, a Detroit locker in the rear, and a Truetrac in the front. It was the same as the Aussie locker front when I upgraded, but it did great.  With dual ultimate gearing you could easily power brake it a bit to help the front engage.

I noticed that you have the dual ultimate and twin sticks - do you recommend the twin sticks?  Do you find it useful?  How do you use the twins?

Thanks!
1987 Std Cab IFS, OME lift, 33" Cooper STT Pro tires
TruTrack front and rear, 4.56 gears
Badland front bumper w/Warn 8000 winch, MC rear bumper & sliders
Corbeau Moab seats, shell w/roof rack

liveoak

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #28 on: Mar 12, 2019, 09:17:47 AM »

Thanks Liveoak, I agree that the least expensive route is regearing the single case and adding the rear locker, but I am still leaning towards the dual transfer case in order to have the wide range of gears available on the trail. I don't want to be too low or too high.


What I meant to convey is that If I had an IFS truck, the most I would do is single case gears, a rear locker, and possible traction aid up front. If you are going to spend the money and effort for dual cases, gears, lockers, driveshafts etc...I would go straight axle now. Whether it be changing the frame to pre 86 or 2wd frame wSAS, modifying your frame wSAS or getting a different truck altogether. You'll eventually break and have to upgrade every part of the IFS with that much torque on it. Not adding a locker to the front doesn't mean you won't break the front gears not to mention all the steering and axle components. If you had a 96 or later it would make more sense to keep the IFS. This is my honest opinion and I hope I don't sound like a jerk.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2019, 09:52:57 AM by liveoak »
my 3rz swap. http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=97722.0

Let me start off with a basket of chips

blackdiamond

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Re: To SAS or not to SAS, that is the question
« Reply #29 on: Mar 12, 2019, 01:06:15 PM »
I noticed that you have the dual ultimate and twin sticks - do you recommend the twin sticks?  Do you find it useful?  How do you use the twins?

Thanks!

I don’t see the twin sticks as a high value item, but the stuff not that expensive. Most of the time I would use it I can’t shift out of 4wd anyways.  I have auto lockers front and rear which makes it harder, but also more useful when it works.

The benefit is having better steering. 
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

Moab Tested & Rubicon Approved

 
 
 
 
 

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