Topic: MY 22RE Hybrid, 20r head, Factory EFI, No welding needed

[Gnarly4X]

Ditto , my old dirt car in early 2000's

So you got some "race'n" in your old blood!!?? 

The last race before I retired "44", I took the Southern Oregon Championship, and I hadn't fired my engine in over 2 years!!
The morning I arrived at the track, one of my old racing buddies came up to me to say "Hi" and wish me luck, and said one of the hot-shot locals asked him "Who is that number 44 running that old engine?"
My buddy told him "Aahh...don't worry he's still learning how to drive!".... true story!  I clocked in the fastest time of the day!  My Dad swore they screwed up time clock on the time trials.
When I walked away with the 1st Place trophy, I handed it to my Dad and said "They didn't screw up this trophy!"

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

44newman.... can you read an Excel spread sheet?

Gnarls.

[44newman [OP]]

Probably not, hahaha. I can't say I'm real familiar with it but I have seen it

[Gnarly4X]

44...

Here's a link to my Excel Sheet converted to a jpg.

https://imgur.com/v7ZO2Q4

I used the SAE spec for typical engine dyno testing.  Zero elevation.

Then I added your weather/elevation (my close guess).

I used your engine specs as close as I can calculate based on specs and some tweaking.

I used EA's "optimize" feature, which looks at the data and I optimzed the cam profile for cam timing.

There's about 4 hours of work in that data.

Please let me know what you think.

NOTE: If you can open the attached Microsoft Excel sheet its easier to read.

Gnarls.

[44newman [OP]]

I'm at work at the moment but I was able to take a pic that's very very cool looks like I'm probably getting what I can out of it not to many gaines to mess with the timing. That is a very nice job laying it all out there like that. Elevation must play a pretty big role in power. I think for snowmobiles and stuff running centrifugal clutches they say 3% per thousand ft.
What's the most you've ever dynoed on a stock calibrated 22RE. This was my very first attempt at any power from a 22RE so I was curious what the potential may be.
Thanks again that's very cool

[Gnarly4X]

I'm at work at the moment but I was able to take a pic that's very very cool looks like I'm probably getting what I can out of it not to many gaines to mess with the timing. That is a very nice job laying it all out there like that. Elevation must play a pretty big role in power. I think for snowmobiles and stuff running centrifugal clutches they say 3% per thousand ft.
What's the most you've ever dynoed on a stock calibrated 22RE. This was my very first attempt at any power from a 22RE so I was curious what the potential may be.
Thanks again that's very cool

Yes.. as you can see elevation, RH, Barometric Pressure, and ambient air temperature has a major affect on power.  The carb's engines will suffer a little more with elevation increases.  The 22RE has more capability to adjust to the barometric pressure and air density.   I've noticed with my 22RE, it does not lose as much throttle response as my 85 22R did when driving in higher elevations.  The guys with the V-8 carb'd engines on the Dusy Ershim trail, at about 9500 feet elevation suffered.  I told them on my 2nd trip that they'd better have 5 gallons of extra fuel because they were going get about 1 MPG!

Some did not believe me!  Near the end of the trail (about 31 miles) they were "pimping" gas out of their tanks!

It is typical to see a 3 to 4% drop in power for every 1,000 feet climb above sea level.  Again, the 22RE is much better at making an adjustment, so the loss of power won't be quite as bad as the 22R.  The 22RE will manage A/F better, so gas consumption will be slightly less with a 22RE.

That's just my opinion - it may have elevated. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I'm at work at the moment but I was able to take a pic that's very very cool looks like I'm probably getting what I can out of it not to many gaines to mess with the timing. That is a very nice job laying it all out there like that. Elevation must play a pretty big role in power. I think for snowmobiles and stuff running centrifugal clutches they say 3% per thousand ft.
What's the most you've ever dynoed on a stock calibrated 22RE. This was my very first attempt at any power from a 22RE so I was curious what the potential may be.
Thanks again that's very cool

What I find interesting is LCE's profile on that cam is spec'd at 8.8 degrees advanced.  That is considerably more than I've seen on most 22R/RE cams.

You can see that your 2.5 degrees retard was a good choice.  Why did you retard the cam timing?

Gnarls.

[44newman [OP]]

I didn't resurfacing the head and possibly the block did that because the tensioner takes the slack out of the chain on one side not both sides equally so it ends up retarding cam timing

[Gnarly4X]

I didn't resurfacing the head and possibly the block did that because the tensioner takes the slack out of the chain on one side not both sides equally so it ends up retarding cam timing

Did you actually measure that much retard?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

I see a typo in my spread sheet.  The Optimized data is at 1 degree advanced.

EDIT:  I FIXED IT in the sheet and in the jpg link.

Gnarls.

[44newman [OP]]

I see a typo in my spread sheet.  The Optimized data is at 1 degree advanced.

EDIT:  I FIXED IT in the sheet and in the jpg link.

Gnarls.

Yes I did, I have the degree wheel and dial indicator from back in my SBC days.

[44newman [OP]]

I was looking at the revised spread sheet, Im surprised the cam timing from 2.5 retarded to 1 advanced doesn't change the RPM range the peak HP and TQ are made at.
So how much HP and TQ do you feel can be made on stock EFI?

[Gnarly4X]

I was looking at the revised spread sheet, Im surprised the cam timing from 2.5 retarded to 1 advanced doesn't change the RPM range the peak HP and TQ are made at.
So how much HP and TQ do you feel can be made on stock EFI?

44...

Studying the numbers, and not just looking at a dyno line graph is more revealing to me.

You are asking a question that gets into the weeds and actual mathematics, flow, and compression…. An area that the average 4-wheeler probably does not understand or looks at… accept the cam manufacturers.

In this case, the cam timing change between 2.5d Retard and 1d Advance, does not change the overlap- surprising to me,  which is 4 degrees for both.  However, the change in cam timing does affect two other factors that slightly boosts the power at 1 degree Advance. 

2.5 Degrees Retard
Overlap – 4.0 degrees
Dynamic Compression Ratio – 7.18
Theoretical Crank Compression – 156
Total Flow Exhaust/Intake – 75.9
Valve events:  Intake opens @ -5.3 degrees (early), Exhaust Valve closes (later) 1.2 degrees.

1 Degree Advance
Overlap – 4.0 degrees
Dynamic Compression Ratio – 7.39
Theoretical Crank Compression – 162
Total Flow Exhaust/Intake – 75.9
Valve timing events are slightly changed:
Intake Valve opens sooner @ -1.8 degrees, and the Exhaust valve closes sooner:  -2.3
I believe that causes a slight increase in compression = more power.  Obviously if "timing" is changed, so does where the power happens in the RPM range changes. 
But... it appears the compression changes, and did not move where the power changes at the RPM? Also, small cam timing changes does not appear to have a significant affect on WHERE the change lands in the RPM range?

What I find interesting about cam timing is that it appears to be much more affective at changing actual butt dyno feeling with a carb’d engine than with a 22RE.  I believe H8PVMNT would agree with that.  I believe it’s because the ECU program, sensors, and injector control maintains the AFR, intake air, ignition timing to modulate any changes it sees.  Just my speculation…. I am a long ways from understanding the parameters set by the ECU program.

I'm trying to understand how much block deck height and head deck height that was enough to change the cam's timing from LCE's 8.8 degrees advanced to your reading of 2.5 degrees retarded?  I assume LCE's published cam specs are accurate.  BUT... quite a few years in the past I did catch mistakes in their published cam spec numbers, and I called them to ask for clarification.

What is the piston deck height? Are those Carillo pistons slightly domed?

Gnarls.

 

[Gnarly4X]

So how much HP and TQ do you feel can be made on stock EFI?

When you say "stock EFI", do you mean Toyota factory off the showroom floor, 1986 Toyota Xtrcab 22RE... supposedly rated by Toyota at 116 HP?

Gnarls.

[44newman [OP]]

The engine came from a buddy of mine. He wanted to build a hot rod 22R, he ordered some parts, put it all together, that wasnt enough, so he ended up turboing it. The performance still wasnt there, Im assuming because to much compression. So he pulled it and put in a 2RZ. 22R sat for awhile. So the time lapse of the whole thing was quite a few years. That being said he does not remember the details of the build, just the basics like the brands of stuff used.
No Idea on the pistons. Would a compression test give you a better idea?
When I said "stock EFI" I was meaning whats the most power youve seen a 22RE make with a stock ECU?

[Gnarly4X]

The engine came from a buddy of mine. He wanted to build a hot rod 22R, he ordered some parts, put it all together, that wasnt enough, so he ended up turboing it. The performance still wasnt there, Im assuming because to much compression. So he pulled it and put in a 2RZ. 22R sat for awhile. So the time lapse of the whole thing was quite a few years. That being said he does not remember the details of the build, just the basics like the brands of stuff used.
No Idea on the pistons. Would a compression test give you a better idea?
When I said "stock EFI" I was meaning whats the most power youve seen a 22RE make with a stock ECU?

Yes, I'm curious what a compression test would show.  What valve lash did you set the rockers?

So... 22RE power plays.... Geez that is one of THE most discussed and abused topics on these forums!

Good question.  Depends on who you get your answer from.
My testing shows a factory stock 22RE shows adding a Doug Thorley header, opened exhaust, and a torquey cam (pick your favorite), I will see an increase of about 10 to 12 ft. lbs of Torque in the 3000 to 3200 RPMs, and an increase in HP of about 10 to 12 Horsepower at around 5200 to 5400 RPMs.

Here’s a good dyno test done by Jim at 22RE Performance, showing a stock 22RE then with his 22RE Stage 2 engine.  With MCE Racing in San Marcos, CA at about 580 feet elevation (and calculating a loss of about 2 to 3 HP) and using the HP loss figures in the video to compute their crankshaft numbers, you can see how close the numbers are to what I have seen.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=22re+performance+stage+2+dyno&view=detail&mid=6F40C5314F0217FA71B26F40C5314F0217FA71B2&FORM=VIRE

In my experience, a 10 HP increase with 10 ft. lbs. of torque increase, would be a VERY noticeable increase in throttle response in my 3500 lb. Toyota XtraCab.

My 1985 22R, stock cam (96H), DT header and 2" exhaust, no cat, Double Gnarly Filter Mod, would blow the doors off of either one of my 22REs!

Gnarls.

[sirdeuce]

Sorry G, I can't accept a comparison between an '87 and '91. The '91 handles mods better than the '87. Even in stock trim, no mods, the '91 does better off the git. Show me the difference between the stage 2 and stock engine using the same auxiliary components amd electronics if you want a valid comparison.

I know you won't like that, but I know things are different enough in that range of years.

I really don't want to sound like an ass here, but if you were to pit stock 22RE 4Runners, '87 against a '91 in a heads-up race the '87 would lose badly. Put that event up a hill and the '91 would walk away. '84-'86 are absolute dogs, '87-'88 not much better. Starting in '89 the tune started getting better and around '91 they finally got it to where a tow wasn't needed to keep up with traffic up a hill. '89 is the point where the ECU had enough of a tune to keep up with heavier mods as well.

[Gnarly4X]

Sorry G, I can't accept a comparison between an '87 and '91. The '91 handles mods better than the '87. Even in stock trim, no mods, the '91 does better off the git. Show me the difference between the stage 2 and stock engine using the same auxiliary components amd electronics if you want a valid comparison.

I know you won't like that, but I know things are different enough in that range of years.

I really don't want to sound like an ass here, but if you were to pit stock 22RE 4Runners, '87 against a '91 in a heads-up race the '87 would lose badly. Put that event up a hill and the '91 would walk away. '84-'86 are absolute dogs, '87-'88 not much better. Starting in '89 the tune started getting better and around '91 they finally got it to where a tow wasn't needed to keep up with traffic up a hill. '89 is the point where the ECU had enough of a tune to keep up with heavier mods as well.

Hey s....

22R-E    84 kW (113 hp; 114 PS) at 4,800 rpm    190 N⋅m (140 lb⋅ft) at 3,600 rpm    1985–1997    EFI, single row timing chain

I agree that the comparison is not accurate as a real 1 to 1.  Yes, put a new factory stock 22RE on a SuperFlow 902S and compare that to 22REP’s Stage 2.  Here’s the kicker for me…. I have yet to see a real certifed head to head comparison of many advertised engine options for power gain.  From camshafts to air filters.  In fact, I’m somewhat surprised to see that video of a two different dyno tests that imply the power gain between the two engines and vehicles - Jim knows it can be viewed as a little deceptive.

Not because of the years difference.  The 22RE still had the same advertised engine specs, and the 5-speed trannies were the same, and most likely had the same 8” ring & pinion.  Yes, the 1991 did have some changes in the engine and probably in the ECU programming, but the power output was the same as 1987.

The reason the two dyno sessions may not be a 1 to 1 comparison is the difference in the vehicle chassis.  The loss in the drive train can be calculated differently between the two vehicles.
Tire size, differential gearing, lubrication, etc.  Also, comparing 22RE with 187K miles on it to a brand new rebuilt is not a valid comparison if you want to see the difference in performance base upon the Stage customization.

As far as a 1991 4Runner running away from a 1987, I think would come down to HP to weight ratio.

Gnarls.

[44newman [OP]]

I checked 2 cylinders one was 130, other 125. As far as valve lash, .008 .012 as suggested by LCE.
Do you have a link to your 22RE builds?

[Gnarly4X]

I checked 2 cylinders one was 130, other 125. As far as valve lash, .008 .012 as suggested by LCE.
Do you have a link to your 22RE builds?

Hey 44….

Are you going to test all of the cylinders, just to make sure they are within spec?

So… the two are within relative cylinder to cylinder spec.  I've read everything from 5% to 20% difference between highest and lowest PSI.  But... at 20% would be a problem for me.

If we apply the “altitude factor” for correcting compression testing, based upon your elevation of 3500 feet, you lose about 3% for every 1,000 feet increase in elevation from sea level.  That’s about 9.5% or 12.35 lbs.

Not taking into account the possible effect on dynamic compression number as a result of that cam profile and duration…..
….. 130 plus 12.35 equals – 142.35.  So that cylinder is within the bottom PSI according to the Toyota FSM.  However, not knowing what your engine block specs are – i.e. piston type, piston deck, and any machining of the block deck or head, that number may be right on, or its off and your compression may be slightly lower than it should be.  Just speculating.

Link to 22RE Performance:  https://22reperformance.com/

Jim and Jerry are really nice guys and extremely helpful and very knowledgeable.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey 44...

Just thinking out loud...

Just from the information you have provided about your engine build, I would look at a different cam.  That LCE EFI Pro profile does not produce the Dynamic CR (at least in my EA software) that is considered the desirable range – 7.5 to 8.5.  And, it has 4.0 degrees of overlap, whether or not the ECU likes or not, I don’t know.  The Dynamic Compression Ratio shows 7.18, just outside of desired range.

The Schneider cam:  244-50F with a split duration for EFI – 202/216 produces a Dynamic CR of 7.63 and a Cranking Compression of 184 PSI.  And, the overlap is 2.2 degrees... keeping Mamma ECU happy.

This would produce significantly more torque at lower RPMs…..  My personal target for my driving needs.

Gnarls.

[44newman [OP]]

Im heading on a coast trip, so I wont be posting for a week or so. Thanks for all of the food for thought. I will someday check the other cylinders. The engine didnt have a lot of time on it but was beat on a few times. The whole thing was somewhat of a budget build, my cam was $80 off ebay, new but 2nd hand.

[Gnarly4X]

Be safe and happy travels!

[sirdeuce]

Too bad I'm heading inland, I'd try too meet up to check this build out. Oh well. Good time to go, temps are supposed to be coming down a bit. Safe trip!

[sirdeuce]

Hey s....

22R-E    84 kW (113 hp; 114 PS) at 4,800 rpm    190 N⋅m (140 lb⋅ft) at 3,600 rpm    1985–1997    EFI, single row timing chain

I agree that the comparison is not accurate as a real 1 to 1.  Yes, put a new factory stock 22RE on a SuperFlow 902S and compare that to 22REP’s Stage 2.  Here’s the kicker for me…. I have yet to see a real certifed head to head comparison of many advertised engine options for power gain.  From camshafts to air filters.  In fact, I’m somewhat surprised to see that video of a two different dyno tests that imply the power gain between the two engines and vehicles - Jim knows it can be viewed as a little deceptive.

Not because of the years difference.  The 22RE still had the same advertised engine specs, and the 5-speed trannies were the same, and most likely had the same 8” ring & pinion.  Yes, the 1991 did have some changes in the engine and probably in the ECU programming, but the power output was the same as 1987.

The reason the two dyno sessions may not be a 1 to 1 comparison is the difference in the vehicle chassis.  The loss in the drive train can be calculated differently between the two vehicles.
Tire size, differential gearing, lubrication, etc.  Also, comparing 22RE with 187K miles on it to a brand new rebuilt is not a valid comparison if you want to see the difference in performance base upon the Stage customization.

As far as a 1991 4Runner running away from a 1987, I think would come down to HP to weight ratio.

Gnarls.

From '85-the last produced 22RE HP ranged from 105 -122(we never saw that 122 here) with torque from 123-140. That 113/140 '85-'94anoblanket looks suspiciously like a wiki thing. I have a listing I got from a guy in Finland with 100some engines and their specs somewhere in my many boxes, love to send a copy or find a way to scan and post it here. First thing would be to find the list.

I can tell you, from the many 22R/RE powered vehicles I've driven, power delivery and output varies greatly. The 22RE Celicas were absolute dogs with no real improvements with upgrades to the engine. 2WD trucks of the same years, even though quite lighter than the Celica, were not any better. Just a simple change in compression would give the electronics fits. From '86 on the tuning kept changing, mostly to keep up with the emissions here.

Heads-up racing from gen1 to gen2? That '94 4Runner would be the same, if not heavier weight, than the first gen. Gear selection should be comparable.

As for dyno testing. Naw, can't compare one generation from the next, 'specially since auto manufacturers try to give some improvements in the next year. Well, most of the time any way.

[Gnarly4X]

From '85-the last produced 22RE HP ranged from 105 -122(we never saw that 122 here) with torque from 123-140. That 113/140 '85-'94anoblanket looks suspiciously like a wiki thing. I have a listing I got from a guy in Finland with 100some engines and their specs somewhere in my many boxes, love to send a copy or find a way to scan and post it here. First thing would be to find the list.

I can tell you, from the many 22R/RE powered vehicles I've driven, power delivery and output varies greatly. The 22RE Celicas were absolute dogs with no real improvements with upgrades to the engine. 2WD trucks of the same years, even though quite lighter than the Celica, were not any better. Just a simple change in compression would give the electronics fits. From '86 on the tuning kept changing, mostly to keep up with the emissions here.

Heads-up racing from gen1 to gen2? That '94 4Runner would be the same, if not heavier weight, than the first gen. Gear selection should be comparable.

As for dyno testing. Naw, can't compare one generation from the next, 'specially since auto manufacturers try to give some improvements in the next year. Well, most of the time any way.

Hey s…

Interesting discussion!! 

I don’t doubt what you’ve experienced.  You’ve had WAY more experience than I've had with these engines.  I’ve only owned and driven 14 Toyota vehicles, including 4 Toyota pickups.
I agree that there were changes to the engines, and probably due to emission issues.  For example, the 1987 4Runner had a 1-wire O2 sensor and the 1991 had a 3 or 4 wire O2 sensor.  I would imagine there were other changes in parts like the Mass Air Flow Sensor, and ECU programming.  And, I have also read a range of power numbers for the 22s.  My first California 1986 22RE Long Bed Automatic was factory rated at 116 HP.

I also agree that there is a difference in butt-dyno driving experiences.  I have driven about 6 other early Toy trucks with 22s and one early 6 cylinder.  Two of the 22s were surprisingly sluggish compared to my 1985 22R.  One was a stroked 22R built by a well-known Toyota race engine builder in his own 1985 XtraCab.

Regarding dynos and dyno tesing… I’ve read many discussions by the experts and had several personal discussions with speed shops and their dyno testing - both engine and chassis.  Take two absolutely identical NASCARs and put two different drivers in them and one will out drive the other.  The same with the dyno operators.  There is also a known fact that the calculations for “weather and elevation” adjustments can be different among the dyno testing experts.  The same vehicle tested on 3 different chassis dynos in the same city on the same day will produce 3 different test results.  As you know, typically dyno testing is to analyze changes from a baseline to a modification.  Of course, also to determine where to make tuning adjustments.

You’ve read here guys that state they don’t tach their engines above 3,000 RPMs!!??  I’ve told the story of a fellow 4-wheeler the day I took him for a ride in my 85 22R. He owned the same year, Xtracab with 22R.  When I went through the gears and tach’d my engine to 5500 in 1st and 2nd gears, I thought he was going to poop himself.  He asked me, in a semi-panic tone, if I was concerned about blowing my engine.  I asked him if he had ever driven his truck in the sand dunes.  He said “No”.  I told him I have, and that I tach the engine to 4,000 and 5,000 RPMs all day long!  I’m not sure he completely believed me.

So… if YOU drive like an old lady, your VEHICLE will drive like an old lady.

Gnarls. 

[sirdeuce]

I've found that the stock 22R internals can handle up to 7,000RPM for a decent amount of time. 7,000 seems to be the limit though as you reach 7,200RPM the rods start doing some interesting things. If you take the time to polish the beams, inside and out, and radius the beams 7,500RPM seems to work for a decent time. For the RPM used by 4 wheelers stock rods are about all you'd really need.

Back in the late '80s I had a crank welded, ground off center and knife edged. That was a 94mm stroke crank. Of course the pistons were custom forged pieces. The rods were from a Chevy V8, 6" centers made by a now defunct manufacturer, Mechart. Those are some of the best looking rods I've ever seen! They were the lightest steel rods you could get. The flywheel was 12lb. Fully built 20R head with side draft carbs, etc.. Snappiest 22R I've ever encountered. Found a crack in the big end shoulder of one of those rods and that was the end of that. Mechart made some of the best rods I've ever used! Those rods came out of a 3 season drag engine, spent 2 seasons in a VW engine and then 3 years in a 22R that got brutally abused, shifted north of 8,000RPM . For a 1980s 4 banger in an '80 Celica it was really impressive! Daily driven 11 second car!

[Gnarly4X]

I've found that the stock 22R internals can handle up to 7,000RPM for a decent amount of time.

I think it’s interesting to read about the attempts and taking a stock Toy engine and modifying it to a radical state of RPMs and HP, from naturally aspirated to blown, turbo’d, and bottle fed.  Over the years I’ve read lots of posts and articles, but usually the stories end with a blown engine with a very short life.  But hey… it was fun while it lasted.

A NASCAR Sprint Car engine costs between $50,000 and $100,000 to build.  It has the most advanced components money can buy, designed by some of the most brilliant automotive engineers in the world, and will last less than 1,000 miles on a racetrack.  The 358 cubic inch engine at 850 HP really isn’t close to stock any more. And it is considered an engineering marvel.

It’s fun to take something like 22R and transform it into a little beast, but for the average person out here like me, I want to build one with a little more torque where I need it, and know it will go 150K to 200K miles, and not cost an arm and a leg to maintain it.

Gnarls.

[RASALIBRE]

Gonna take a look at a local 20/22r hybrid engine this weekend. Only things I know right now are: long block 1983 22R early performance engine with 20r big valve head, balanced, with stage 2 cam and 10 to1 compression. It’s set up and running with dual 45mm webers and some crazy ignition.
I gonna take look, take the car for a spin, and pick this guys brain for more specifics.
My goal is to do what 44 has done here, only go full megasquirt, still come in under the budget of a stage 2.5 22re performance engine, gain tuning experience/ability, and fun, not huge power.
It’s going in a 3rd vehicle so time is of no relevance.
Again, we shall see, might not even buy this thing.
The idea of running the schneider 244-50F and keeping the stock efi has crossed my mind as well.
So I’m sharing this in hopes to ring out any further advice, issues, concerns, or anything else of relevance from 44newman or anyone else

[Gnarly4X]

Gonna take a look at a local 20/22r hybrid engine this weekend.....

So I’m sharing this in hopes to ring out any further advice, issues, concerns, or anything else of relevance from 44newman or anyone else

RASALIBRE... it will be interesting to read about your impression of the engine you are going to look at.

If I were going to build an early 22 to a radical level of modification, like sirdeuce and 44newman have done, I would not get into the megasquirt and fuel injection.  I’d stay with carbs.  Why?  I know I’d spend many hours experimenting with a megasquirt, I’d need a very accurate AF gauge, a laptop, and lots of time recording the results of the changes to get where I wanted it to be.  Admittedly, I just don’t have the skills or the patience.

From my limited experience, with carbs, intake manifolds, headers, compression, cam profiles, and head, the changes are easier to make, test, and actually see the desired results in less time. 

Building an engine with the sophisticated technology is great, fun to play with, a great learning experience, and probably ultimately a “better” engine. BUT…. I’m old school… I just like the feeling of the raw power that comes from the smell of fuel, tuning by ear and my butt dyno, the fun of starting a cold carb’d engine with my right foot messaging gas pedal.

If successfully building a RELIABLE, performance enhanced, early Toyota 22 engine was easy, it would not take 22RE Performance about 40 hours to build one.

Gnarls - just my worthless opinion.