Author Topic: MY 22RE Hybrid, 20r head, Factory EFI, No welding needed  (Read 1078 times)

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44newman

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MY 22RE Hybrid, 20r head, Factory EFI, No welding needed
« on: Feb 28, 2019, 09:30:01 PM »
This board has had a lot of talk about this over the years so I thought Id share my experience.
I acquired an engine from a friend with the intent of using it for a replacement for my tired 22RE in my 86' Toyota 4x4. The engine had a propane turbo setup on it, and I was not familiar with Toyota 4 cylinders. Most Ive done to date was change the oil and a fuel filter once, PITA. Apon closer inspection after removing the turbo manifold, I noticed a difference in intake port shape. This was unexpected due to the fact that he told me it was an LCE head, and looking at the LCE head options a 20R was not one of them. Thinking it had to be compatible with EFI I started to do a little research. Research told me its a 20R head, And they are not compatible with stock EFI under normal circumstances. Yes it has been done, I found DOAs welded head, and pics of a adapter that were so so, with no explanation.
So here is my adapter, its 3/4 x 4 aluminum 6061 from ebay $40 shipped, Used the 2 center bolt holes for starting reference, then the gaskets of each to mark port shapes. Now this could probably be made  on a CNC machine and bolt right on, but now for the tricky part, coolant passages. They arent where you need them. The most important being for the thermostat housing. Estimating the sq in of the EFI manifold passage I knew the 20R passage would need to be made as big as possible within the constraints of the boss width and height. This passage in a blind hole in the 20R head meaning it goes nowhere. So I took a 1/4" drill bit and started drilling into this blind hole, the hope was to hit a coolant passage, which I did, so I drilled and die ground as much as I thought possible.
Some of the manifold bolts line up, some have to be countersunk, and some tapped.
The details of my engine are
84'? Block
CP Forged Pistons
Stock crank rods
LCE 20R Stage 3 Head
LCE EFI Pro cam
Double roller chain
TB Bored to 57mm by Maxbore
220cc injectors
Supra AFM, not installed yet, waiting for CAI
LCE Header
EGR delete
Relocated knock sensor
4 wire O2
Adjusted AFM.
It runs good but I thought it lacked bottom end so I checked the cam, turns out its retarded 2.5 degrees, I want to fix this with a adjustable cam gear.
Timing its 5 jumped, Weird thing is it goes to 40 at RPM no matter where you put the inital setting. I read somewhere this was a ECM problem.






« Last Edit: Mar 01, 2019, 07:22:33 AM by 44newman »

H8PVMNT

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Well that is interesting.  Keep up the good work!
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44newman [OP]

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I tried to make a thread worthy of conversation to get my post count up to do some other stuff on this forum. I guess this old toyota stuff isint interesting anymore, HAHAHA.

Plainview

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I dig the fab work you've done, but my understanding is that the factory EFI system is not very flexible and fairly intolerant of HP adding mods.

That's the reason I'm sticking with a Weber on my hybrid motor.

I do wonder though, could you get an aftermarket controller/ECM to work with the stock EFI manifold?  If so, that would offer up the tuning flexibility you need.
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44newman [OP]

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You are partially correct about too many mods for an EFI motor, with the mods I have listed mine runs great no problems at all idles smooth, now I don't have a tach so I don't know what it turns for RPMs I've heard the EFI manifold limits stop end. So carbureted intake would probably outflow it and build more power and be more forgiving to run a bigger cam, I've heard they're are alternatives to the factory EFI like megasquirt that will allow you to make much more power with EFI.

redneckcustoms13

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. I guess this old toyota stuff isint interesting anymore, HAHAHA.

That would probably be because the 3rz swap is so cheap and readily available.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
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44newman [OP]

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Copy that, I did it based on cost. I was only in the engine and head couple hondos.

Gnarly4X

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I dig the fab work you've done, but my understanding is that the factory EFI system is not very flexible and fairly intolerant of HP adding mods.

That's the reason I'm sticking with a Weber on my hybrid motor.

I do wonder though, could you get an aftermarket controller/ECM to work with the stock EFI manifold?  If so, that would offer up the tuning flexibility you need.

I only have experience with my 1985 22R and my 2 1986 22REs.

I’m not sure of the total cost or parts to convert a 22RE EFI engine *back* to a 22R carb’d engine, but if wanted to increase the performance the engine, removing the EFI, ECU, and sensors, going to a carburetor will provide the most flexibility and options to increase power – torque and upper RPMs.  Unless you are building a high RPM engine for running the Baja 500, for most of us it’s all about torque numbers from off-idle to about 3500 RPMs.

On a 22RE:  A DT header and opened exhaust on 22RE will produce a noticeable increase in power, both low end torque and freeway speeds.  A torquey aftermarket cam will get you a tad more.  After that the rest of the bolt-on modifications and add-ons will most likely get small amounts of gain in power.

On a 22R:  The right carburetor, intake manifold, header and exhaust system, and cam profile, on a factory stock 22R it will produce twice the power gain of a similarly modified 22RE. 

The 22RE is an amazing design, even with its inherent  premature head gasket and timing chain failure. Toyota has produced the most reliable engines ever installed in a pickup.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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No, the interest in these old engines is not dead! I've been working on a process to do this same adaptation. Mine is a bit more involved, requires a lot more money as well. Money part comes in the form of a CNC and tech. Here's a short rundown.

1) Have the lower manifold runners scanned and mapped. the tech can then program the map to cut out the ports
2) Fill the lower manifold runners with epoxy (Aluminum epoxy is available through aerospace suppliers) about 3 inches deep
3) Machine the runners
4) some welding on the 20R head will benecessary to mate the 22RE manifold properly

Going 3 inches into the runners allows for a long taper into the round 20R port, which can be carried into the head. If all is done properly the flow will increase to a fantastic level and the port velocities will be kept high. If the port is designed properly a high swirl can be built into it. When all is said and done it should be hard to tell from stock.

For those who want to suggest doing an engine swap. Some of us just like the old engines.

Here's where your work on this is better, my way is a $1700 bill.

Definately post your results!

Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

44newman [OP]

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Have you started this? I ask because the square(rectangle) port shape of the EFI runner is important to the injector positioning. If you reshape the EFI runner to a round shape you will cut off the area the injector sprays. Just wondering if you covered this? The adapter plate option worked really good, the port differences are so minute the 3/4 adapter makes a nice transition.
BTW mine runs awesome. Im super impressed with the power, I dont know if you have ever drove an auto 22RE, but now mine will cruise in OD at 60 or 65, whatever.  Where most will shift down trying to cruise at those speeds. And rips up to 80 pretty good.

Only things I lack now are: This is an important thing to consider, if you have a surfaced head or block, Your timing is probably off, not ignition timing but cam timing. As you surface the block or head you decrease the distance between cam and crank, so the additional slack in the timing chain is taken out on one side of the cam, not equal. So the cam ends up rotated slightly from where it should be stock.  The cam positioning can be adjusted with a adjustable timing gear.  Cam positioning is generally referred to in degrees, 0 being centered and advanced or retarded , meaning camshaft opens early or late. Advancing cam timing makes the cam events happen sooner, AKA build power sooner, AKA peak power is a lower RPM than if the cam is set to zero. After surfacing, the cam positioning is automatically retarded. Which means the power band is shifted to a higher RPM. Not at all what 22REs were designed for. So you are loosing bottom end power, and building power up high, beyond the limits of the 22RE. If you have surfaced your head or block or both I think its a MUST to have a adjustable timing gear, to get your cam timing back to 0 or even advanced.
 My other want is a CAI of some sorts,  there are a couple benefits of a cold air intakes, 1 being I can hookup my supra AFM. 

Gnarly4X

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....This is an important thing to consider, if you have a surfaced head or block, ...

The importance of cam timing adjustments is VERY dependant on the cam profile.  Cam timing adjustments for decking a block or a head can be made very easily – just with the head gasket thickness.  So it’s not necessary to buy an ACG and fart around with butt-dyno testing.

H8PVMNT should have some interesting comments on his experimenting with cam timing.

On a 22R/RE block, with a Toyota factory camshaft, the number of degrees, either advanced or retard change from zero, and the actual measurable affect on power is greater than a couple cam degrees.  A common block deck at a machine shop is about .006” to .010” to “clean” the deck.  At .010” off the block deck the cam timing change, retarded, would be difficult to even measure on an engine dyno or butt-dyno.

All of the port work or whatever magic poop is done, without a flow bench and an engine dyno, your butt dyno may not be accurate enough to measure the desired change.

The Toyota factory ECU and sensors on a stock 22RE is just not going to allow very significant performance changes, as would be measured with a carb’d engine.

From a factory stock 22R, rebuilding to .060” over bore, raising compression to 10:1, adding a DT header with an opened exhaust, a torquey cam, you could probably gain 20 to 25 HP and 15 to 20 lbs of torque.

Those changes on a stock 22RE might not produce the same increase in power.

Gnarls.


« Last Edit: Apr 27, 2019, 04:25:50 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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... If the port is designed properly a high swirl can be built into it. When all is said and done it should be hard to tell from stock.


How do you measure "swirl"?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

44newman [OP]

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I would love to see H8PVMNT's cam timing experiments. 
My engine was 2nd hand so I cant say how much was decked, But I can say the cam timing is 2.5 degrees retarded. Maybe the timing set had some affect on this too. At any rate 2.5 degrees could be upwards of a 400 RPM shift in power. So take my EFI pro cam is 1200-5000, adding 400 RPMs to the bottom of the power curve, 1600 is going to be a noticeable loss in bottom end power for one of these little engines.
Most cam manufactures recommend installing their cams at 0. If anything a little advanced would still be better than 2.5 retarded.  My truck runs real good, but even with 4.88 gears and a 30" tire it still has to get rolling before the power really comes on.  In my case Im betting I can get some more bottom end with a cam adjustment.   

Gnarly4X

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....  In my case Im betting I can get some more bottom end with a cam adjustment.   

Will you feel a change in throttle response after you play with your adjustable cam gear?  I'm curious to learn.

Ted at engnbldr (a NASCAR Golden Wrench recipient) once confirmed my comment on Pirate… the numbers produced by a $100,000 engine dyno, or a desktop dyno, may not translate to the driver or the car on the race track.

As I said... the cam profile is very important when discussing cam timing and timing adjustments.

According to their website, the LCE Pro Torquer cam 1022024-K has a split centerline.  It is advanced 4.3 degrees.  If your cam timing is retarded by 2.5 degrees (I assume you have measured it with a degree wheel) that means your cam is sitting at 1.8 degrees advanced.

Calculated between 1200 to 3,000 RPMs, for a 1.8 degree advance, at 1600 RPM there is virtually NO change in torque or HP numbers.  110, 33.6. But, you gain 1 lb. of torque at 3000 RPMs, right where we need it.  For that range the average torque number drops by 1 lb. 128 to 127, and the average HP numbers are virtually the same – 53.1 HP.

I can post the numbers from Engine Analyzer, but it takes me awhile to do the composing after the program calculates the comparison.  In the past 15+ years I’ve done hundreds of mock pulls on EA with practically every advertised camshaft for a 20/22 engine and made hundreds of comparisons on cam profile specs, including cam timing.  BUT…. I am NOT a camshaft expert and NOT an engine builder.

That’s just my experience and my opinion – it may be worthless and full of pomp ‘n stink.

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Apr 28, 2019, 06:00:11 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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44newman [OP]

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Gnarly thanks for all the info, Im not necessarily looking for more power, just that the power come on a little sooner, I see what you mean about the split centerline, anytime the intake centerline degrees and LSA numbers are different, theres advance built into the cam.  But it would be nice to have it degreed where it was ground to run. 

Zippo did you ever try megasquirt? And what kind of pics where you hoping for?

Gnarly4X

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Gnarly thanks for all the info, Im not necessarily looking for more power, just that the power come on a little sooner,

What RPM range do you want more torque?  ... Like off idle to what?  I have done all the cam comparisons for TORQUE.

It is interesting that LCE's split cam and Schneider's split cam are suggested for EFI.  I can show you the numbers.

Mamma ECU apparently does not like too much overlap.

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 06:22:51 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

44newman [OP]

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What RPM range do you want more torque?  ... Like off idle to what?  I have done all the cam comparisons for TORQUE.

It is interesting that LCE's split cam and Schneider's split cam are suggested for EFI.  I can show you the numbers.

Mamma ECU apparently does not like too much overlap.

Gnarls.



RPMs, cant say, My POS doesnt have a tach, HAHA. It does zero in the way of trying to spin the "tire"HAHAHA, but once your rolling it pulls very impressive for a 22RE. But runs out of steam  quick, which is probably due to intake design, not cam duration.
I built a small block Chevy years back. Moderate roller cam, ported heads, TPI EFI. The intake design has very long runners, 17", makes gobs of torque, but when it accelerates they run out of air at 5500. Its almost like hitting a rev limiter, even though the engine had 6000+ RPM potential easy, being balanced, forged, ect.
So does your research support the use of split cams like the two you mentioned?

Not many stock ECUs tolerate narrow LSAs

I am actually running the EFI PRO cam, which is very close to the Pro Torquer. The EFI PRO has even more built in advance.

Gnarly4X

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RPMs, cant say, My POS doesnt have a tach, HAHA. It does zero in the way of trying to spin the "tire"HAHAHA, ....
I am actually running the EFI PRO cam, which is very close to the Pro Torquer. The EFI PRO has even more built in advance.


Geez…44newman..... I’m concerned about you!  You are after more torque quicker, but you don’t even have a tach!!  :smack:

And… you are not sure which LCE cam you have?  :dunno:

Profiling a cam for early peak torque in an engine with EFI is tricky for our engines.

Why?  Because if you want early RPM torque numbers, then typically the profile will have a narrower LSA.  The tighter the LSA the more overlap.  How much overlap will Mamma ECU be happy with?  I’ve been told by an engine builder that a cam profile in a 22RE at 6.2 degrees of overlap caused a lean fire condition in his testing.

Both the LCE cams you referenced have split centerlines, with a slight increase in overlap from stock cam (2.5 to 3.4 for the Torquer, and 4.2 for the EFI Pro).

With that said, the EFI Pro cam produces more torque and more HP than the Pro Torquer.  The Pro Torquer has 4.3 degrees of advance, the EFI Pro has 8.8 degrees.  If you have 2.5 degrees of retard as you stated, that makes the EFI Pro 6.3 degrees of advance.  The numbers, both peak torque and HP are virtually the same for 8.8 degrees or 6.3 degrees between 1,000 and 2,800 RPMs.

The Schneider 244-50F EFI cam blows the doors off the LCE EFI Pro for low end torque.  It has 2.2 degrees of overlap.  202/226 with 112 degree LSA.

So .. a split duration profile is typically better for low end to mid range torque, but as you are experiencing, you may trade-off some high RPMs power.

Regarding spinning tires… “ha-ha”… it’s an old TRUCK engine, not a Chevy Camaro 327!!

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 06:00:25 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

sirdeuce

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The importance of cam timing adjustments is VERY dependant on the cam profile.  Cam timing adjustments for decking a block or a head can be made very easily – just with the head gasket thickness.  So it’s not necessary to buy an ACG and fart around with butt-dyno testing.

H8PVMNT should have some interesting comments on his experimenting with cam timing.

On a 22R/RE block, with a Toyota factory camshaft, the number of degrees, either advanced or retard change from zero, and the actual measurable affect on power is greater than a couple cam degrees.  A common block deck at a machine shop is about .006” to .010” to “clean” the deck.  At .010” off the block deck the cam timing change, retarded, would be difficult to even measure on an engine dyno or butt-dyno.

All of the port work or whatever magic poop is done, without a flow bench and an engine dyno, your butt dyno may not be accurate enough to measure the desired change.

The Toyota factory ECU and sensors on a stock 22RE is just not going to allow very significant performance changes, as would be measured with a carb’d engine.

From a factory stock 22R, rebuilding to .060” over bore, raising compression to 10:1, adding a DT header with an opened exhaust, a torquey cam, you could probably gain 20 to 25 HP and 15 to 20 lbs of torque.

Those changes on a stock 22RE might not produce the same increase in power.

Gnarls.




Have you started this? I ask because the square(rectangle) port shape of the EFI runner is important to the injector positioning. If you reshape the EFI runner to a round shape you will cut off the area the injector sprays. Just wondering if you covered this? The adapter plate option worked really good, the port differences are so minute the 3/4 adapter makes a nice transition.
BTW mine runs awesome. Im super impressed with the power, I dont know if you have ever drove an auto 22RE, but now mine will cruise in OD at 60 or 65, whatever.  Where most will shift down trying to cruise at those speeds. And rips up to 80 pretty good.
 
I've not started this yet, money thing y'know. As for the injector? Plans to machine a pocket for the fuel flow, a pocket that will be blended into the head port. It'll be a few days down the road.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

sirdeuce

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The importance of cam timing adjustments is VERY dependant on the cam profile.  Cam timing adjustments for decking a block or a head can be made very easily – just with the head gasket thickness.  So it’s not necessary to buy an ACG and fart around with butt-dyno testing.

H8PVMNT should have some interesting comments on his experimenting with cam timing.

On a 22R/RE block, with a Toyota factory camshaft, the number of degrees, either advanced or retard change from zero, and the actual measurable affect on power is greater than a couple cam degrees.  A common block deck at a machine shop is about .006” to .010” to “clean” the deck.  At .010” off the block deck the cam timing change, retarded, would be difficult to even measure on an engine dyno or butt-dyno.

All of the port work or whatever magic poop is done, without a flow bench and an engine dyno, your butt dyno may not be accurate enough to measure the desired change.

The Toyota factory ECU and sensors on a stock 22RE is just not going to allow very significant performance changes, as would be measured with a carb’d engine.

From a factory stock 22R, rebuilding to .060” over bore, raising compression to 10:1, adding a DT header with an opened exhaust, a torquey cam, you could probably gain 20 to 25 HP and 15 to 20 lbs of torque.

Those changes on a stock 22RE might not produce the same increase in power.

Gnarls.




Have you started this? I ask because the square(rectangle) port shape of the EFI runner is important to the injector positioning. If you reshape the EFI runner to a round shape you will cut off the area the injector sprays. Just wondering if you covered this? The adapter plate option worked really good, the port differences are so minute the 3/4 adapter makes a nice transition.
BTW mine runs awesome. Im super impressed with the power, I dont know if you have ever drove an auto 22RE, but now mine will cruise in OD at 60 or 65, whatever.  Where most will shift down trying to cruise at those speeds. And rips up to 80 pretty good.
 
I've not started this yet, money thing y'know. As for the injector? Plans to machine a pocket for the fuel flow, a pocket that will be blended into the head port. It'll be a few days down the road.
Sure it'll fit........ Just needs a little brute finesse.

 
 
 
 
 

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