Author Topic: 22r Timing  (Read 2324 times)

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Yotaoverland

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22r Timing
« on: Aug 25, 2018, 11:47:34 AM »
I've searched the forum but couldn't find much info for timing a 22r.

I just got a 22r from 22reperformance. I put the engine in set it to TDC, plugged everything up and got it started. I began to set the timing and got confused. On their site, they say to set the initial base timing, " remove both vacuum lines at the vacuum advance on the distributor and cap them. With the timing light pointed at your lower pulley, turn your distributor until the pointer is at the 0 degree mark. While it's running, re-connect the inner vacuum advance line, it should jump to about 5 to 7 degrees at the timing marks. Connect the second vacuum line next. There shouldn't be any change."

I followed those instructions but the timing didn't advance. Also when I moved the distributor to 0 degree, the engine ran terribly.
Did I do something wrong?
1980 pickup LWB
22r
L-52 5spd
Detroit tru-trac
Expedition truck.

Snowtoy

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #1 on: Aug 25, 2018, 01:48:57 PM »
See if you can draw a vacuum on the vacuum advance module on the distributor.



The baffle inside is a cloth material that was covered in rubber, the rubber degrades over time cause the baffle not to seal.  If you don't have vacuum, and can't a used one, or don't want to pay for one, you can open them up, remove the old rubber, and reseal them with a good layer of silicone on each side.

When you installed the distributor, did you do it this way?


« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2018, 01:58:55 PM by Snowtoy »
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The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Yotaoverland [OP]

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #2 on: Aug 25, 2018, 02:47:21 PM »
Oh thank you.

I did set the distributor correctly upon installing it. I now believe that maybe the vacuum advance is defective.

Just checking, I am supposed to plug the vacuum advance ports on the distributor as I set base timing to 0*
then remove and add the vacuum lines and it should jump to around 5-7*?
1980 pickup LWB
22r
L-52 5spd
Detroit tru-trac
Expedition truck.

Snowtoy

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #3 on: Aug 25, 2018, 04:02:11 PM »
Just checking, I am supposed to plug the vacuum advance ports on the distributor as I set base timing to 0*
then remove and add the vacuum lines and it should jump to around 5-7*?

You plug the end of the vacuum line you remove from the vacuum advance module on the distributor when you set the timing,
not the vacuum module.


Distributor install


To set  timing.

'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #4 on: Aug 26, 2018, 05:23:56 AM »
Hey colezombie,

Where ever you end up with the ignition timing, you might consider test driving your vehicle and making sure it’s not pinging.  I don’t think that engine has a knock sensor.

On my 22R I always fine tuned my ignition timing by ear.  My 22R was way more sensitive to ignition timing change than my 22RE’s.

What octane are you burning?  And, did 22RE Performance recommend any octane rating?  Did they tell you what the compression ratio is for your engine?

Just curious.

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

fasterspider

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #5 on: Aug 26, 2018, 06:37:45 AM »
I put the timing light to my 1985 22R on Friday, set it to 5° BTDC and yesterday my truck ran absolutely perfectly.
I set the timing a month ago but, it changed by itself to at least 7° AFTC and she ran but, poorly and would run on a little after turning the key off.
Snap-On timing light that belongs to my buddy is extremely sensitive let me set the timing perfectly.
I have a new cam chain so my timing is dead on balls accurate and my truck has never run so well.
fasterspider, now older and slower.

fasterspider

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #6 on: Aug 27, 2018, 08:10:32 AM »
Yesterday I stabbed a distributor into a 22RE.
I removed the valve cover, turned the crank until my arrow and special link lined up @ 5° BTDC, stabbed the dizzy to #1, checked the valve lash with my fingers instead of a feeler gauge because I know when they are too tight or too loose and they were all good from the engine rebuild, put the cover back on, hooked up my timing light and fired the truck. It ran immediately and with a slight adjustment of the dizzy, she was running smooth as a baby's azz.
Today the owner, a neighbor of mine is ordering an exhaust gasket set and a new valve cover gasket because the guys that did the engine rebuild reused all the old gaskets and neglected to hook up the ignition ground along with ripping the positive side out of the dizzy breaking and ruining his dizzy, had to buy a new one for his 1990.
Anyway, the images above are how I got the timing set so all I can say is thank you for posting it, I do not have an FSM and you saved my ass.
fasterspider, now older and slower.

Yotaoverland [OP]

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #7 on: Aug 28, 2018, 04:01:20 PM »
Hey colezombie,

Where ever you end up with the ignition timing, you might consider test driving your vehicle and making sure it’s not pinging.  I don’t think that engine has a knock sensor.

On my 22R I always fine tuned my ignition timing by ear.  My 22R was way more sensitive to ignition timing change than my 22RE’s.

What octane are you burning?  And, did 22RE Performance recommend any octane rating?  Did they tell you what the compression ratio is for your engine?

Just curious.

Gnarls.  :inthedark:

They didn't specify octane rating and I'm sure the gas in the tank is pretty old.
Forgive me if this is a dumb question but, when hooking up the timing light, I turn the truck on and check timing it should be idling at 0* and then I plug the vacuum hoses and it should stay at 0*?? I was under the impression that once I plug the vacuum hoses back into the carb/intake, the timing would jump forward 5-7*.
1980 pickup LWB
22r
L-52 5spd
Detroit tru-trac
Expedition truck.

fasterspider

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #8 on: Aug 29, 2018, 06:39:40 AM »
My timing was off by 7° ATDC when I started my engine with the vacuum line already plugged so I gave the dizzy a twist setting it to 5° BTDC my truck runs perfectly now.
I just take one of the vacuum lines off the dizzy and drape it back to cover the other vacuum tube, loop it back on itself.
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Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #9 on: Aug 29, 2018, 09:47:06 AM »
They didn't specify octane rating and I'm sure the gas in the tank is pretty old.
Forgive me if this is a dumb question but, when hooking up the timing light, I turn the truck on and check timing it should be idling at 0* and then I plug the vacuum hoses and it should stay at 0*?? I was under the impression that once I plug the vacuum hoses back into the carb/intake, the timing would jump forward 5-7*.

Hey colezombie,

Old gas can be a problem.  Gas in a tank can go "bad" in 3 to 6 months.  If the gas has been sitting longer, you might want to consider draining the old gas.

Yes, the vacuum hose, connected to the disty, should advance the ignition timing slightly, and should increase the idle RPM.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Aug 30, 2018, 03:56:30 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #10 on: Aug 29, 2018, 09:52:39 AM »
Yesterday I stabbed a distributor into a 22RE.
I removed the valve cover, turned the crank until my arrow and special link lined up @ 5° BTDC, stabbed the dizzy to #1, checked the valve lash with my fingers instead of a feeler gauge because I know when they are too tight or too loose and they were all good from the engine rebuild, put the cover back on, hooked up my timing light and fired the truck. It ran immediately and with a slight adjustment of the dizzy, she was running smooth as a baby's azz.
Today the owner, a neighbor of mine is ordering an exhaust gasket set and a new valve cover gasket because the guys that did the engine rebuild reused all the old gaskets and neglected to hook up the ignition ground along with ripping the positive side out of the dizzy breaking and ruining his dizzy, had to buy a new one for his 1990.
Anyway, the images above are how I got the timing set so all I can say is thank you for posting it, I do not have an FSM and you saved my ass.

I don’t I understand why you would use a “special link”?? What do you mean?  Are you using a bright link on the timing chain?  The bright links should only be used when first installing a timing chain kit.  After the engine rotates, the links have nothing to do with alignment.

When installing the disty, I always make sure the number one cylinder is firing (rockers are loose on number 1), harmonic balancer mark is 0 at timing tab, and number 1 piston is TDC.  Then, install the disty so the rotor contact is pointing directly at number 1 contact on the cap.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Yotaoverland [OP]

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #11 on: Aug 30, 2018, 12:24:23 PM »
Could I be 180* out? I was told that maybe I was TDC but at the wrong compression.

I took the number one spark plug out and held my finger in there as I spun the motor and waited until I felt pressure pushing outward on my finger and assumed I was correct but maybe I'm not?

1980 pickup LWB
22r
L-52 5spd
Detroit tru-trac
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Lewis Hein

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #12 on: Aug 30, 2018, 01:02:56 PM »
One useful trick is to stick a copper wire down the spark plug hole and feel.

Snowtoy

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #13 on: Aug 30, 2018, 03:26:53 PM »
Could I be 180* out? I was told that maybe I was TDC but at the wrong compression.

I took the number one spark plug out and held my finger in there as I spun the motor and waited until I felt pressure pushing outward on my finger and assumed I was correct but maybe I'm not?

If/when unknown, if the valve cover is on, pull the #1 spark plug and set engine to TDC, then using something long enough that it wont fall in, check to see where the piston head is.  Then leaving what ever you used to feel for the piston head, crank the engine around to TDC again, if it lowers it was at TDC when you started, if it raise you weren't.

If the valve cover is off, check to see if the #1 rocker arms are loose and the #4 are tight.

« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2018, 04:02:05 PM by Snowtoy »
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Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #14 on: Aug 31, 2018, 09:24:13 AM »
Could I be 180* out?


The engine will not run if you have accidentally stuck in the disty when number 1 cylinder is on exhaust stroke instead of TDC with number on cylinder firing.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Yotaoverland [OP]

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #15 on: Sep 01, 2018, 06:39:45 AM »
The engine will not run if you have accidentally stuck in the disty when number 1 cylinder is on exhaust stroke instead of TDC with number on cylinder firing.

Gnarls.

It does start up fine and run fine from what I can tell, but it doesn’t want to turn off with the key now??
It did earlier and after a drive it doesn’t. The timing light shows the timing is the same though.
1980 pickup LWB
22r
L-52 5spd
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Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #16 on: Sep 01, 2018, 08:36:16 AM »
It does start up fine and run fine from what I can tell, but it doesn’t want to turn off with the key now??
It did earlier and after a drive it doesn’t. The timing light shows the timing is the same though.

Did you put new gas in it?  What octane?  Run on can be caused by several things.

Have you pulled the spark plugs to see what they look like?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

fasterspider

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #17 on: Sep 01, 2018, 02:12:37 PM »
I don’t I understand why you would use a “special link”?? What do you mean?  Are you using a bright link on the timing chain?  The bright links should only be used when first installing a timing chain kit.  After the engine rotates, the links have nothing to do with alignment.

When installing the disty, I always make sure the number one cylinder is firing (rockers are loose on number 1), harmonic balancer mark is 0 at timing tab, and number 1 piston is TDC.  Then, install the disty so the rotor contact is pointing directly at number 1 contact on the cap.

Gnarls.
When I am stabbing a dizzy, I take the engine back to the way it sits when getting a new cam chain, it is easier for me that way. I am a motorcycle mechanic, not an automotive mechanic but, I get bye just fine. My truck runs fantastic and the 90 I stabbed the dizzy into now runs well also.
I followed the instructions from the images above to know the difference between a 22R dizzy set up and a 22RE dizzy set up, they are different and it was the images above that guided me through to a sucfessful installation.
fasterspider, now older and slower.

Yotaoverland [OP]

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #18 on: Sep 04, 2018, 03:26:02 PM »
So I've determined that my vacuum advance is bad. Does anyone know where I could get a new good quality one? Or a whole new good quality distributor?

I've tried a NAPA one and it literally wouldn't even fit in the head..  :outtahere: :moods:
1980 pickup LWB
22r
L-52 5spd
Detroit tru-trac
Expedition truck.

Snowtoy

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #19 on: Sep 04, 2018, 05:56:07 PM »
You can buy them from LCEngineering
https://www.lceperformance.com/Distributor-Vacuum-Advance-Unit-22R-p/1081123.htm

Or, pry open the folded over edge and reseal the baffle yourself if it is still intact.
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'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Yotaoverland [OP]

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #20 on: Sep 05, 2018, 04:05:08 AM »
You can buy them from LCEngineering
https://www.lceperformance.com/Distributor-Vacuum-Advance-Unit-22R-p/1081123.htm

Or, pry open the folded over edge and reseal the baffle yourself if it is still intact.

Gotcha. I may try to reseal it. I was told by 22reperformance that LCE ones are not good.
1980 pickup LWB
22r
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Snowtoy

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #21 on: Sep 05, 2018, 09:14:41 AM »
The module is clam shell design, it takes a llittle owrk with a screw driver to pry up the fold over seam, but once you get it started it goes pretty easilly from there.

Rockauto.com also has rebuilt distributors that come with new modules, prices start at about $80, not sure about the quality of the low price ones, but the module should be ok to swap over if yours isn't repairable.

Did 22reperformance say what is wrong with LCE's?
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #22 on: Sep 05, 2018, 10:12:54 AM »
If the vacuum advance unit has failed, prying it open and messing with a vacuum part may or may not fix it.

It may be better just to buy a replacement unit from Rock Auto or whatever source you choose.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Snowtoy

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #23 on: Sep 05, 2018, 11:50:10 AM »
What usually fails is the baffle, the oem rubber degrades over time and prevents the chambers from sealing. Once your remove the rest of the rubber coating, if the material used is still good, a couple of light layers of automotive grade silicon on each side, and the baffle will work just fine.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #24 on: Sep 05, 2018, 12:54:34 PM »
.... I now believe that maybe the vacuum advance is defective.


How did you determine the vacuum advance unit is not functioning?

Where are the vacuum tubes connected?

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Sep 05, 2018, 01:07:38 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #25 on: Sep 05, 2018, 01:06:25 PM »
What usually fails is the baffle, the oem rubber degrades over time and prevents the chambers from sealing. Once your remove the rest of the rubber coating, if the material used is still good, a couple of light layers of automotive grade silicon on each side, and the baffle will work just fine.

My point is simply that to take apart that unit and kludge it back together is potentially wasting time and then relying on "silicon" to fix it.  On a newly rebuild 22R, the vacuum advance is important for around town driving and advancing ignition timing when there is a vacuum - usually at lower RPMs.  That disty has mechanical advance as well.  His signature indicates it's an "expedition truck" - even more important to have a highly reliable engine.

Is it worth saving $60 to risk having the ignition timing off?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Sep 05, 2018, 01:12:09 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #26 on: Sep 05, 2018, 02:02:58 PM »
My point is simply that to take apart that unit and kludge it back together is potentially wasting time and then relying on "silicon" to fix it.  On a newly rebuild 22R, the vacuum advance is important for around town driving and advancing ignition timing when there is a vacuum - usually at lower RPMs.  That disty has mechanical advance as well.  His signature indicates it's an "expedition truck" - even more important to have a highly reliable engine.
Well aware of what a new engine needs, did this fix with an newly rebuilt '84 22re, and it worked well, the module is a simple mechanical device, and operates under a few pounds of vacuum. 

As for the silicone lasting, the one in my '86 22r is going on 4yrs now without issue, not sure about the others, as those were restored for sale.

Quote
Is it worth saving $60 to risk having the ignition timing off?
For $5 worth of silicone, yes, it isn't a high tech part.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

Gnarly4X

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #27 on: Sep 05, 2018, 02:37:28 PM »
Well aware of what a new engine needs, did this fix with an newly rebuilt '84 22re, and it worked well, the module is a simple mechanical device, and operates under a few pounds of vacuum. 

As for the silicone lasting, the one in my '86 22r is going on 4yrs now without issue, not sure about the others, as those were restored for sale.
For $5 worth of silicone, yes, it isn't a high tech part.

Yeah.. .I'm definitely a fan of the frugal DIY option.  I did this back around 1999 when my 85 ignitor died.  The one from Toyota was like $400.  I got the hot tip from Benjamin with a photo on how to build one with a GM ignitor.  The part from Autozone was around $6.00 and it took me about 1 hour to solder it in... and it WORKED!!

As I've gone through this rebuild and restore, I'm getting less and less excited about me doing the "fix it" option and more into the "buy a new one" solution.  Frugal and Fubar for me have been way too close lately. :smack:

Gnarls. :disturbed:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Yotaoverland [OP]

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #28 on: Sep 06, 2018, 02:20:08 PM »
Yeah.. .I'm definitely a fan of the frugal DIY option.  I did this back around 1999 when my 85 ignitor died.  The one from Toyota was like $400.  I got the hot tip from Benjamin with a photo on how to build one with a GM ignitor.  The part from Autozone was around $6.00 and it took me about 1 hour to solder it in... and it WORKED!!

As I've gone through this rebuild and restore, I'm getting less and less excited about me doing the "fix it" option and more into the "buy a new one" solution.  Frugal and Fubar for me have been way too close lately. :smack:

Gnarls. :disturbed:

I considered fixing it myself since I can't seem to find a good quality new one. NAPA offers rebuilt ones and I've heard LCE ones have many problems.
EDIT: Just bought a remanufactured one on ebay.. We'll see how it goes.
« Last Edit: Sep 06, 2018, 02:36:27 PM by colezombie »
1980 pickup LWB
22r
L-52 5spd
Detroit tru-trac
Expedition truck.

Yotaoverland [OP]

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Re: 22r Timing
« Reply #29 on: Jan 14, 2019, 04:56:53 PM »
So it's been a little over 6 months since I put the new 22reperformance 22r in my truck and it still won't run correctly. I got inspired to try again today, so I turned it on and let it idle with a timing light hooked up. The timing is bouncing all over the place. I have suspected for a while that there may be a short in the ignition system, but I can't seem to figure out this issue.
It has a new coil, new GM ignition module, new wires, new distributor yet it still doesn't idle correctly and when I rev it, it back fires like crazy. I tried to drive it the other day and there is no power at all.

I'm starting to think the only fix is to sell it..

1980 pickup LWB
22r
L-52 5spd
Detroit tru-trac
Expedition truck.

 
 
 
 
 

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