Author Topic: All the stuff from a 22r that could possibly make a 20r run better...???  (Read 3019 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

the_white_shadow

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
I picked up a couple new to me 1980 first gens last week and have been tinkering with one to get it running and driving decently. I noticed off the bat that the 20r has a couple things that are different than the 22r that i am more familiar with. This is the first 20r that i have tried to get running reliably which brings me to my line if questions. I have several random 22r parts on the shelf and wondered if any were an "upgrade" for the 22r.

1. Exhaust manifold - Everything i have read says they are interchangeable. Does the 22r one "flow" better than the 20r one? The previous owner had it unbolted for some reason and come to find out there isnt a gasket there so i have to take it apart anyways. The exhaust is getting changed out to ~2" so now is my opportunity to swap on the 22r manifold.

2. Ignition - The 20r uses a coil. I have an igniter from a 22r on the shelf and wanted to know if this is an upgrade or no? Wiring looks the same at first glance. Should i swap in the 22r igniter or just get a new coil and rock on?

3. Distributor - I have a 22r dizzy on the shelf as well. Should i swap this in if the answer to No. 2 is yes? The 20r one i have now has vacuum advance as well.

4. Carb - IS the 22r carb better than the 20r carb? I noticed the chokes are different (water vs electric). Since the intake manifolds arent the same im assuming i need an adapter for the 22r carb? Not going to spend money on a weber.

I thinks thats all for now. I cleaned out the gas tank and am now no longer clogging fuel filters left and right. It runs decent at idle but boggs down during acceleration. PO said the accelerator pump needs replacing so a carb rebuild kit is on its way. I plan on using the Canadian vacuum line diagram since it doesnt have a single line hooked up and delete the EGR and smog stuff while i am at it.

A part of me wants to turbo/propane it.

Pics of my new treasures. The white one has a much better bed than the green one, but doesnt have an engine or trans. I plan on making one nice one out of the two.




Link it it running:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/03EWojdKyXjiDigh1


Also on a completely unrelated topic, has anyone ever seen a double walled bed on a first gen from the factory? The green one has a double walled bed that is filled with ~1" sheets of Styrofoam and as you can imagine is rusted smooth the F out. Ive heard rumors of a double walled bed but the 10+ i have had over my lifetime says otherwise. thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:25:21 PM by the_white_shadow »

300k

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 3744
  • Male Posts: 646
  • Member since Jun '15
  • GREEN NAME MAN BAD!
    • Please ban me!
          OK!
      I am banned!
I want to see what H8PVMNT writes to this.

1. As I understand, there's an exhaust manifold on one of these trucks that is closer to a Tri-Y than the other ones. the one I found on my 81-84 block was the garbage one that flows all the exhaust into a big, undivided chamber.

2. don't know

3. H8PVMNT found that the Celica 22R distributor has different weights and springs. I will look for that post or he can chime in http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=97297.0;message=1105921 Celica distributor tech, courtesy of H8PVMNT :thumbs:

4. The 20R carb flows 136 CFM less than the 22R carb, but I'm not sure if that extra fuel would be usable for the 20R. Regardless, LCE sells an adapter for just that, FOUND HERE.

you could have a sweet engine with an 81-84 22R block, 20R head, cam, header, Celica dizzy, and a weber.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 02:12:42 PM by 300k »
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
thanks for the reply. A 20/22r hybrid definitely has crossed my mind.

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Started messing with it a little after work last night and here are a couple pics of the exhaust manifolds im working with. Took the OE 20r one off already because i need to drill and tap the head for some new studs. (Half are damn near pulled out of the head)

OE 20r setup


22r manifold that i have from a parts truck.


The 22r manifold looks like a better design with two cylinders per tube then combining into one rather than all four hitting each other all at once. I need to pull the down tube from the parts truck and swap it in.

Also deleted all the smog stuff yesterday. It was originally setup with a smog pump that was no longer there. That meant the hoses to it where just capped  and hanging loose in the engine bay. Deleting the EGR (which was 100% clogged by the way) and the air pump valving under the intake will definitely clean up the engine bay. Carb is now off and soaking in prep for a rebuild.

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 6629
  • Male Posts: 2,362
  • Member since May '15
    • Buy me a beer
Nothing wrong with the 20r ignition. It works fine. The 20r carb is great. I prefer it over the 22r carb any day. Exhaust is up to you. I'd spend $150 for a header and call it done. 
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

H8PVMNT

  • Online Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 451
  • Male Posts: 3,470
  • Member since May '07
  • I'LL NEVER MAKE IT...
OK, here is what I have found...  the 22r carb is better for performance.  I ran both the 22r carb and a 20r carb, both de-smogged and striped down, on my hybrid and the 22r carb smoked the 20r carb hands down.  I have no problem with the water choke though, I actually like it.  I liked the 20r carb on my 20r, but not on a higher performance setup.  I think it's a better off road carb than the 22r carb. 

You do need an adapter to run the 22r carb on a 20r intake though.

The 22r does have a better exhaust manifold.  Kind of like a header, especially if you use the double down pipe with it.

The magnetic pickups (reluctor?) on the 20r distributor are a bit wider theoretically giving you a slightly longer spark.  300K is correct that there are different weights and springs in different applications too.

The coils are probably equal.  As long as it works, run it.  The only exception would be the carb truck coil that is kind of triangular.  It's not better spark, but it's supposed to be a more durable coil and ignitor.  Don't know if that's true, but I am using a couple of them and they still work.

The 20r/22r Hybrid is fun and worth doing I think.  That being said I have never been disappointed in my stock 20r over the years, so I think the largest difference is the 20r cylinder head design.  I ran a hybrid, which started getting a ton of blow by, presumably from bad rings.  Now I have built a 20r with a nice cam.  Haven't ran it yet.
I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.
Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
I appreciate the feedback gentlemen. Im not trying to make a screamer out of this thing. I just have some random parts on the shelf and if they are an upgrade why not use them. Looking more for reliability here as the plan for this truck is a weekend around town backroads beater truck.

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 6629
  • Male Posts: 2,362
  • Member since May '15
    • Buy me a beer
I'm sure mike will agree with this statement. Run it as it is with a different exhaust. I believe you will be happy with it. In my honest opinion I like the 20r engine more than the 22r. It's more simplistic and the torque seems to come in a lower rpm.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

H8PVMNT

  • Online Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 451
  • Male Posts: 3,470
  • Member since May '07
  • I'LL NEVER MAKE IT...
Yup, my stock 20r would out do any stock 22r I have had.  I have built a hopped up 20r this time instead of a hybrid just to see if it's the compression of the hybrid or just the 20r head.  If you have a usable 20r you should run it.
I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.
Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Installed some new head studs to a larger size since the OE ones were mostly stripped out and bolted on the 22r manifold with new gaskets. Carb is rebuilt and deleted all smog related items. I went with the Canadian vacuum line routing and it fired right up last night. (Open 20r exhaust is not pretty :)) I still need to adjust the idle screw as it dies if i let off the throttle, but if i keep the rpms up just a tad it sounds good. Also installed new Toyota spark plugs and old (but better than previous) plug wires.

Any tips on the idle screw? Turn it all the way in and how many turns out to get it in the ballpark for fine tuning? 3?

Some pics. Removing all the old smog stuff and new nicely routed vacuum lines really cleaned up the engine bay. Once i get the air cleaner gasket in ill put the cleaner assembly on and see how she drives.



H8PVMNT

  • Online Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 451
  • Male Posts: 3,470
  • Member since May '07
  • I'LL NEVER MAKE IT...
Idle mixture is basically just bring it out until it starts idling right and you don't get any more rpms out of it by adjusting further out, then you can dial it in just a tad, if that makes any sense.  Then put it where you want it with the idle speed screw, the one that cracks the butterflies open.

My 20r carbs always liked a higher idle than the 22r carb and tend to run a bit rich.  They do cold start pretty well, probably because of the rich tendency.
I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.
Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 6629
  • Male Posts: 2,362
  • Member since May '15
    • Buy me a beer
If you have a vacuum gauge. Connect it to a vacuum on intake and adjust idle mixture out until highest vacuum on gauge is achieved at idle. May have to adjust the idle/throttle stop screw after. But thats all there really is to it.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Thanks for the tips guys. I fiddled with it yesterday and got it to idle and run pretty well. Biggest part was adjusting the throttle cable as no matter what i did, as soon as i would let off the gas it would die. All it needed was a very very small push and it would idle at 7-800 rpms and respond well to throttle. So i adjusted the cable some and now it idles fine. That was yesterday so ill see if it starts right up when i get home from work this evening.

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 6629
  • Male Posts: 2,362
  • Member since May '15
    • Buy me a beer
Sounds like your idle screw needs to be adjusted. The cable should have just a very small amount of slack in it at idle.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
To update this some. Finished the exhaust yesterday and took it out for a spin. Quickly noticed that i couldnt get it past 15-1800 rpms no matter what i did. Got it around 30mph in 3rd gear and it wouldnt accelerate at all. Like pedal to the floor and no change. No real bogging down, nothing.  The accelerator pump is new as it came with the rebuild kit. What else should i be looking for? Has new plugs, wires, vacuum lines set to Canada diagram, etc.
« Last Edit: Jun 05, 2018, 07:42:35 AM by the_white_shadow »

H8PVMNT

  • Online Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 451
  • Male Posts: 3,470
  • Member since May '07
  • I'LL NEVER MAKE IT...
Maybe the secondary isn't opening?
I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.
Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Possibly. When i rebuilt the carb, everything looked fine. Ill take a look and see.

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
I swapped in the 22r dizzy and it definitely ran better, but still wont accelerate past 2000ish RPMs. Vacuum advance definitely works on this one. I also swapped on a new weber which idles great but dies under acceleration. If i feather it i can get past that initial bog point and get it to rev up but then stop at ~2k.

Anywho i started to hear some awful noises so i shut it down and found this when i pulled the valve cover.

Broken can retainer and a very loose (i think) timing chain.

See vid here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kHb9E4kd5wqh2Q879


Pic. Kinda hard to tell but the cam retainer is definitely cracked all the way through.


What are my options? I have a parts 20r head that i can rob the cam retainer from, but im assuming that the cam is now fawked.

I can swap in a freshly rebuilt '87 22r short block but would need to get new head for it. LCE has them complete for about $1k. Definitely out of my price range so a nice stocker is what i am looking for if i go this route.

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Dug into it more after work yesterday. Two cam caps were broken. Other one was finger tight. Cam is fucked. Head is fucked. Looks like i am going the budget route and swapping on my spare head as it looks complete and is in good shape. Never taken a head off before...Do you need to change the headgasket at the same time or negative if its in good shape?

Pics of the carnage.




I found it weird that one of the head bolts is bone dry and the rest are covered in oil. Option 2 is the 22r block. I went to check it out yesterday and it needs a complete reassembly, but is a freshly cored block 0.010 over. I think for now, as i dont see this a long term truck, to just put my spare head on and swap in a new timing chain and do burn outs. Seems to be the easiest/cheapest route.  That may change once i pull the head and see if anything else is damaged.

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 6629
  • Male Posts: 2,362
  • Member since May '15
    • Buy me a beer
Never re use a head gasket. And please heed these words. ONLY USE AN OEM HEAD GASKET FROM THE DEALERSHIP!!! When you install the gasket put a thin layer of fipg or good silicone on the front cover and head matting surfaces of the head gasket. Otherwise it will leak.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Will do. I plan on resealing the entire engine since i basically have to tear it all down anyways to replace the timing chain.

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Never re use a head gasket. And please heed these words. ONLY USE AN OEM HEAD GASKET FROM THE DEALERSHIP!!! When you install the gasket put a thin layer of fipg or good silicone on the front cover and head matting surfaces of the head gasket. Otherwise it will leak.

the headgasket is discontinued and not available through the dealer. I tried toyotapartsdeal.com and part.lakelandtoyota.com and came up with the same. Does LCE sell a good Japanese HG?

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Just got off the phone with LCE and they say a 22r HG is the same a 20r. Can anyone confirm? The 22r gaskets are available still from toyota.

redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 6629
  • Male Posts: 2,362
  • Member since May '15
    • Buy me a beer
Yes they are interchangeable.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
Thanks.

New parts are on order to save this 20r from the scrap pile. (Came across a deal for a 2l-te turbo diesel on the local facebook classifieds that peaked my interest for a moment, but i already have too many projects).

Ordered:
LCE dual row timing chain kit with steel guides
OEM toyota 22r head gasket
Felpro engine gasket set
Aisin oil pump (might as well replace it since i have everything apart)


Hopefully she will run like a top once im done.

EASYRYDERDANGER

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 1566
  • Male Posts: 201
  • Member since Jul '06

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
The 20r is now out and with the head off. Pistons and cylinder walls look good. Ill get the block cleaned up with a powerwasher and painted then start putting it all back together.


redneckcustoms13

  • Offline The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 6629
  • Male Posts: 2,362
  • Member since May '15
    • Buy me a beer
That far into it, I'd put new rings and bearings and hone it.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

the_white_shadow [OP]

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: -7
  • Posts: 493
  • Member since Jul '08
That far into it, I'd put new rings and bearings and hone it.

I dont think i want to go quite that far into it. If i do, i might as well fully assemble the 22r i have access to.

EASYRYDERDANGER

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 1566
  • Male Posts: 201
  • Member since Jul '06
+1, you are there, new bearing/rings aint that much money...

 
 
 
 
 

Related Topics

3 Replies
777 Views
Last post Jul 29, 2007, 11:09:42 PM
by JoeShmo65
6 Replies
1049 Views
Last post May 13, 2008, 08:26:58 PM
by BLACKDOG
0 Replies
474 Views
Last post Dec 30, 2008, 07:45:34 PM
by 85toycrawler
0 Replies
1011 Views
Last post Oct 12, 2009, 08:40:03 PM
by PadawanYota_Stovy
3 Replies
564 Views
Last post May 12, 2012, 10:18:05 PM
by kneedownnate