Author Topic: Cporche's engine fiasco  (Read 2511 times)

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  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« on: Mar 16, 2018, 09:58:40 AM »
Hey cporche,

For what it may be worth, here are my thoughts….

On your first failed long block….

Based upon your comments and your description of the engine failure, which appears to be catastrophic, I find it difficult to understand what parts were used, what machining was done to the block, and who assembled the long block?  Did the shop rebuild the long block or did they buy it from an eBay supplier and sell it to you?
“The shop i bought it from assembled the long block, i am unsure of weather they performed the actual machining or it was outsourced. i seem to believe it was outsourced tho i vaguely remember him saying he would have to send it out.:

>>> So it was NOT your block from your Runner?  What is the source?
correct, the original motor was given as a core at the time of the picking up the first rebuild. the first rebuild was not rebuilt again (he said because he would have to bore to .030 over it would be more then what i purchased so he did another exchange unit)

On your new rebuilt long block… What specific machining was done to the block?
“I tried to get this information from him, he would only reply with everything is to the manufactures spec to that part. i asked several times if chrome coated rings require special machining. He said the machinest was given the ring information and machined it accordingly.”

>>>> If a machine shop, auto shop, or engine builder cannot or will not provide you this information, they are scamming you.  Who is “the manufacturer”?
yep this is partally my fault i should have seen the red flags on the first engine

What new parts were used?
“to my knowledge everything is new except the crank and rods, new aftermarket head, timing cover, timing components, gaskets, new rv cam, new bearings. Let me reiterate he was kind of beating around the bush with me when i asked”

>>> This guy is a not telling you the facts for a reason… he’s not honest, and therefore appears to be a crook and a fraud, or doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.

yep, from what i have gathered sofar i think he was a backyard engine builder that basically purchased a shop to work out of, again my fault for not enough research upfront

Other than NPR rings, whose parts were used?
“The parts kit based on what the boxes looked like when i picked up the motor was evergreen”

>>>> Evergreen is a distributor.  NPR is supposedly a Japanese manufacturer, but NPR is known to be a poor quality product by at least one top 22R/RE engine builder, and will not be used.  I believe chrome rings are not typically used or recommended for street 22 rebuilds.  Usually Moly rings are used.
yep, all info i found out after the first motor didnt do enough research prior to that. now im at the engine builders word.

Was the head rebuilt or new?
"New aftermarket (i can confirm aftermarket based on the poor machining quality it wouldnt have passed any oem quality check.)”

>>>> So this guy would NOT tell you the source of this new head?  Is that a BIG RED FLAG!!??

basically at this point im giving my another chance taking his word that everything will be ok, before i start asking for my money back

What camshaft was installed and what valve lash was set?
“He said rv 261 cam, .005 in and .007 exhaust. It is very tight but the cam card does reflect this however he didnt give me a copy of it, and i couldnt see the manufacturer.”

>>>> Is this cam from engnbldr?  If it is, the valve lash specs are WRONG!!  Engnbldr’s 261C is spec’d at .007"
 for Intake and .009” for Exhaust.  I’ve never seen a 22R/RE cam spec with valve specs that tight!

He claims i will be given a cam card this saturday when he does an inspection of my motor and install to reup the warranty for another year and unlimited miles

Did this shop recommend a break-in procedure?
“He did not mention the oil priming that i performed, he said just dump them over the cam and crank with out plugs until oil pressure builds. I have the tool tho, why not use it and give the motor the best chance of no failing. Everything else other then first oil filter change at 50 miles. I waited until 300 miles and did an entire oil change.”

>>>> So, he did NOT mention how the break-in his newly rebuilt engine???  If he didn’t tell you what he recommended for a break-in procedure he is stupid!

How many miles on the break-in now and how much oil is it using?
“~650 miles i have 2 tanks on this oil change sofar and the oil has not dropped. However i have to fill up today on the way home hopefully i will see no change but i will update if there is. also he instructed me that it needs to be 1/4 inch above the full line on the dipstick, he claims toyota never made a different stick for 4x4 and the oil level is too low on incline. I call bull crap but until im out of warranty im abiding by his rules”

>>> I have NEVER heard of anyone saying or recommending to over fill a dip stick reading!!   ¼” above the full mark on a 22 dip stick would equal a tad less than ½ quart.  That is clearly ignorant.. over filling a crankcase can cause foaming, lubrication starving, and blown seals.  He probably told you that to prevent you from running low on oil before you noticed it… another indication this guy is stupid.
yeah this sounded so wrong to me however once it gets the final inspection tomorrow it will be back to normal operating levels at this point im just doing what he says to if it fails he cant blame me.

What are the engine specs and all parts used?
“I have no spec sheet from the rebuild so i have to take his word for everything is "at spec now"”

>>>>>  No specifications of the rebuild?... another reason to believe this guy is a scam.  “at spec now”… what the hell does that mean?  WHOSE SPECS???  What hone grit and RA did is spec'd? What crosshatch did the machine shop machine?  That specification is critical!!
the more i talk to him i think he just doesnt know, i feel hes not an engine builder at all but a parts assembler

What oil are you using?
“Right now its got rotella 10-40 per his request.”

>>> I assume its NOT Rotella T, which is synthetic?
Sorry miss-spoke 15-40 from what i was able to get off thier website this is not a sythetic oil. Personally i think its a sythetic blend but again, his requirement

Quote from: EASYRYDERDANGER on Yesterday at 09:29:33 PM
Sound like u may have been concerned so I'll let you know that the aftermarket head is most likely better than the OEM one that was on there.  The stock japanese ones are known for their porous  aluminum.

“Im not saying because its aftermarket that its of poor quality or anything of the sort, ive worked in independent automotive repair most of my career, however the intake holes not lining up (as pictures with gasket on the head) and having to tap the exhaust manifold stud holes does give me low confidence in how well the head was machined.”

>>> That head was NOT a quality head and sounds like the worst aftermarket head I’ve read about.  If that is the poor quality of parts that guy is using, he’s an idiot!!  Was it new or remanufactured?

Although possible, I am unaware of a historical porosity problem with factory “stock Japanese” 22 heads.  I do know that, according to my local head shop, that the factory 22 head has a problem with #3 chamber where the water port cracks across to the chamber, and (other than overheating) electrolysis is a major cause of the alloy head corrosion and head gasket failure.

Cporche… I’m very surprised that you say you have “worked in independent automotive repair most of my career” and have gone through this ordeal without getting the facts, the specifications, checking out the reputation of your engine builder, the sources of the parts, the suppliers, and end up having a guy and shop sell you an engine that clearly was JUNK.

Other than racing circles, it is rare that a rebuild shop or distributor would not reveal every aspect of their engine specs and sources.

Did this guy provide you a Warranty?  I am surprised that he did rebuild your fubar'd engine... that is one positive and commendable aspect about the guy.

I always hate to read about someone going through your kind of "fiasco".  :down:

yes and no, i did 12 years at transmission specialty shops that would rarely do engine replacement. We did have a reputable engine builder that i could have went to, but was more expensive for a stock rebuild then putney's stage 3 blue printed build. I decided to go with a cheaper alternative, which bit me in the butt hard. Typically in the aftermarket when you outsource work its to a reputable place and to be completely honest we dont find out exactly what parts are going in. Before getting into this engine i would have never been able to know that npr was a crappy ring manufacture thats why we outsource to someone that knows what they are doing.
I think my biggest flaw was i was naive in thinking the reviews on the business where enough. Typically in the shop we would get word of mouth referrals on where to send certain things. For instance the engine builder we used in the shop (at roughly once every 2 years) name was given to us by a performance shop that was across the street from us. They actually let go of thier engine builder and just started outsourcing solely to this company. Which was good enough for us. I had the flawed logic of going hey, if they got good reviews and success stories he should be reputable. Upon some research in the last few days i have come to the realization the many of the "good reviews" were simply his friends and family members vouching for him. i did end up comming across some very poor reviews in the last few days....

Originally i was give a 1 year unlimited mile warranty, after the first engine crapped out he said i get another 1 year unlimited mile pending final inspection tomorrow.

As a side not in the trans industry we get parts from a supplies like trans-star, nat pro, precision internation, W.I.T. ect, ect. They do the research for us thats what we pay for over time we find out which kits to buy from which distributor. But it would be near impossible to find out what company actually makes the 2-4 servo cover oring for a 4l60E with out hours and hours of research. Frankly its not cost effective we use it once, hey it works or hey we had a failure after 500 miles, lets try another distributor.

As for him covering his warranty, like you i was actually surprised there was a time line that i thought it was going to be very questionable and he still covered it, heres how it went.

Roughly 3-4 months in i still had high oil consumption and valve train noise after multiple valve adjustments. Called he said sometimes they can take up to 8000 miles for oil consumption to slow down (first red flag i started paying attention to.) At 10 months i reached out to him again when oil consumption did now slow down and i decided to check compression. The next conversation went at such

Me:hey whats the compression supposed to be on this rebuilt long block (i already knew i was low in the 140's but did not tell him yet)
him:165, maybe 155 if your alittle higher up
Me:well dog i got 140 across the board what do you want me to do
him: do a wet compression test
Me: i would prefer not to, i have a cylinder leak down tester i can take pictures of the gauges and it would be more accurate
Him: i would rather just old school wet compression
Me: ok, fine i'll report back shortly

*next call*
Me: so im at 180-185 wet compression seems to me the rings are bad
Him: ok pull the motor back out and bring it to me
Me: well im going out of town for the next couple months for work can i bring it to you after that i really dont have the time until after (This is a total lie i had a wheeling trip planned and i wasnt missing it hell or high water. i knew the engine was already screwed so what the hell i was just going to let it ride keep it full of oil and not do anything stupid)
Him: ok thats fine, since you had issues prior to the end of the warranty i'll still cover it
Me: cool i'll keep you updated

I pulled the engine the day after the wheeling trip, brought it to him the following day after that.

At this point other then my time im still only out about 1500 for the motor, and second round of lce seals that i had to buy because i didnt trust the seal kit he gave me. in totally yes its an expensive mistake but not terrible if it goes before the warranty is up i'll ask for my money back and either do a putney rebuild, do it myself (with tons of more research) or do a 1uz swap. As the 4runner will be a trail vehicle only in the coming 2months. i feel like i left out some details, but im sure you will have more questions.

Gnarls.  :dunno:


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