Author Topic: Cporche's engine fiasco  (Read 1586 times)

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cporche

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Cporche's engine fiasco
« on: Mar 12, 2018, 10:12:34 AM »
So its been a while since i posted here but i figured it was time for an update.  About a year and a half ago i purchased this beast 1989 4runner with 312,000 on the clock (from what i remember).


After i purchased it i rewired most the truck as much of the wiring was butchered up (stripped wrapped and taped together was the P.O.'s m.o.) got it running better and fixed small issues i found with it, stuff inoperable, intermittent no start no crank.

After purchasing a house i had room to finally get to doing some heavy maintenance and such. I pulled the motor for a reseal as it was leaking from every orifice imaginable. Upon disassembly i found cylinder 3 was wasted, and 3 of the bosses for the exhaust studs were cracked. I figured based on the other work i had to do and stuff going on with the purchase of the house ( complete copper repipe was the project at the time) i decided to buy a long block from an engine builder i found via social media and craigslist.

The first long block i got from the guy burned a ton of oil, 1 qt for every tank of gas to every other tank of gas. I had severe lack of power and the valve train sounded like it was going to explode . At 8k miles i finally got around to figuring out my oil consumption while talking to the engine builder. I did a compression test at got an average of 142 psi (140, 144,142,140 iirc) i told him i could do a cylinder leak down test if he liked but he wanted a wet compression test.... wet compression was up to 180 so the rings were shot or at least never seated correctly.

I got a new long block from him, as it stands he is saying all the piston rings were gaped at 40 thou, spun #4 main bearing, and the cam chewed into the head. It was an rv 261 cam that i paid for, and still never given a cam card. He also couldn't make up his mind on weather my valves were too loose or too tight. I had them adjusted to 7&11 cold (i got a very good friend that worked as a toyota master tech when the 22re was in its hayday this was his suggestion) the engine biuilder said this was too tight, then when i picked up the motor he said the rv cam that i had called for something like 5 and 7 for the valve lash. he was then claiming the valve lash caused the low compression.

I wish i could have gotten pictures at the shop when i went to pick up my motor but the cylinders looked like the rings were made of 40 grit sand paper, there was no longer a cross hatch and scored all to hell.

The new motor has NPR rings, and what ever kit he uses (claimed it was the same makers as lce but i highly doubt it)
The new head on the motor i got was not an oem head it is a cheap after mark and the intake holes didnt line up, actually had to cut the gasket and drill the intake to get it to fit.
The stud holes for the exhaust manifold were tapped with a worn out tap, so i couldnt even thread in the studs i had to retap them all to get the studs to thread it.



I got the new motor installed and got it running again i got about 500 miles on it

Me and the trail dog went camping with some friend and got to try out the new motor (normally i was would for at least a few k on the motor but honestly i don't expect much from it, so when it goes again i'll do it myself now that time permits.


The motor now seems to be running well, actually had good power and i haven't burned enough oil to notice anything so far and the valve train is like a sowing machine now. I ran straight 30 sae weight lucas break-in oil and changed the oil at 300 miles i will do my next oil change at 1000 miles. pre lubricated the truck before start up (injected 6 qts thought the oil pressure sender unit hole) i build normal oil pressure within about 4 seconds of the first cranking with no plugs in it. Held it for another 15-20 seconds and put in the plugs and reinstalled the efi fuse. cycled the key a few times and she started after about 3 seconds of cranking, much better then the first motor which i cranked for about 2 minutes total before it fired and build oil pressure (his direction not mine) The procedure i did to seat the rings and break in the cam was 2000 rpms for 20 minutes the varying for another 15 minutes then drove it easy for the first 300 miles. Now im driving it some what easy still with the occasional 50-60% throttle accelerations.

The first oil change had a ton of metal in it but that is to be expected, however the oil now still looks new so hopefully everything is ok now.

i also finished scrapping my donor truck and took it to the salvage yard. It was a 1984 short bed with 5.29's and detroits front and rear. also where i got the winch, rock sliders, and 5 spd manual g52 from that i did my 5spd conversion from. I ordered all of my sas parts, rear bumper, and doubler and 4.7 transfer case gears. i originally planned to go with all pro sas however they were bough out by trail gear, so i went with trail gear... more pictures to come when it goes under the knife.

winch and bumper with control box relocated

im sure there are spelling mistakes and grammatical errors if something doesn't make sense hit me up i'll fix it.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2018, 10:21:06 AM by cporche »

Gillesdetrail

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #1 on: Mar 13, 2018, 06:35:35 PM »
Good to know things seem to be working out with the new engine, and the truck is looking good! I wish you luck on this new build  :beerchug:

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #2 on: Mar 13, 2018, 07:51:04 PM »
Hey cporche,

Wow... so glad you were able to get that engine built and it seems to be running nicely.  :crossed:

I do have some questions.  :gap:

I'll make a list and post some.   :thumbs:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #3 on: Mar 14, 2018, 05:30:09 AM »
Hey cporche,

On your first failed long block….

Based upon your comments and your description of the engine failure, which appears to be catastrophic, I find it difficult to understand what parts were used, what machining was done to the block, and who assembled the long block?  Did the shop rebuild the long block or did they buy it from and eBay supplier and sell it to you?

On your new rebuilt long block…

What specific machining was done to the block?

What new parts were used?

Other than NPR rings, whose parts were used?

Was the head rebuilt or new?

What camshaft was installed and what valve lash was set?

Did this shop recommend a break-in procedure?

How many miles on the break-in now and how much oil is it using?

What are the engine specs and all parts used?

What oil are you using?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #4 on: Mar 14, 2018, 09:29:33 PM »
Sound like u may have been concerned so I'll let you know that the aftermarket head is most likely better than the OEM one that was on there.  The stock japanese ones are known for their porous  aluminum.

cporche [OP]

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #5 on: Mar 15, 2018, 01:51:07 PM »
Hey cporche,

On your first failed long block….

Based upon your comments and your description of the engine failure, which appears to be catastrophic, I find it difficult to understand what parts were used, what machining was done to the block, and who assembled the long block?  Did the shop rebuild the long block or did they buy it from and eBay supplier and sell it to you?

The shop i bought it from assembled the long block, i am unsure of weather they performed the actual machining or it was outsourced. i seem to believe it was outsourced tho i vaguely remember him saying he would have to send it out.

On your new rebuilt long block…

What specific machining was done to the block?
I tried to get this information from him, he would only reply with everything is to the manufactures spec to that part. i asked several times if chrome coated rings require special machining. He said the machinest was given the ring information and machined it accordingly.

What new parts were used?
to my knowledge everything is new except the crank and rods, new aftermarket head, timing cover, timing components, gaskets, new rv cam, new bearings. Let me reiterate he was kind of beating around the bush with me when i asked

Other than NPR rings, whose parts were used?
The parts kit based on what the boxes looked like when i picked up the motor was evergreen

Was the head rebuilt or new? New aftermarket (i can confirm aftermarket based on the poor machining quality it wouldnt have passed any oem quality check.)

What camshaft was installed and what valve lash was set?
He said rv 261 cam, .005 in and .007 exhaust. It is very tight but the cam card does reflect this however he didnt give me a copy of it, and i couldnt see the manufacturer.

Did this shop recommend a break-in procedure?
He did not mention the oil priming that i performed, he said just dump them over the cam and crank with out plugs until oil pressure builds. I have the tool tho, why not use it and give the motor the best chance of no failing. Everything else other then first oil filter change at 50 miles. I waited until 300 miles and did an entire oil change.

How many miles on the break-in now and how much oil is it using?
~650 miles i have 2 tanks on this oil change sofar and the oil has not dropped. However i have to fill up today on the way home hopefully i will see no change but i will update if there is. also he instructed me that it needs to be 1/4 inch above the full line on the dipstick, he claims toyota never made a different stick for 4x4 and the oil level is too low on incline. I call bull crap but until im out of warranty im abiding by his rules

What are the engine specs and all parts used?
I have no spec sheet from the rebuild so i have to take his word for everything is "at spec now"


What oil are you using?
Right now its got rotella 10-40 per his request.
Gnarls.

Sound like u may have been concerned so I'll let you know that the aftermarket head is most likely better than the OEM one that was on there.  The stock japanese ones are known for their porous  aluminum.

Im not saying because its aftermarket that its of poor quality or anything of the sort, ive worked in independent automotive repair most of my career, however the intake holes not lining up (as pictures with gasket on the head) and having to tap the exhaust manifold stud holes does give me low confidence in how well the head was machined.
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2018, 08:18:06 AM by cporche »

EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #6 on: Mar 15, 2018, 03:12:17 PM »
I work as a circus monkey. anyways, maybe its a Chinese cylinder head. The last ebay header I bought from china didn't line up and I too had to hog the holes out. despite a hole location, good to hear it works

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #7 on: Mar 15, 2018, 05:15:42 PM »
Please don't use a yellow font.

It's really hard for me to read............


 :hammerhead:
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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #8 on: Mar 15, 2018, 06:23:56 PM »
Please don't use a yellow font.

It's really hard for me to read............


 :hammerhead:

(blackdiamond!) Yellow font is the worst! It's not even real, it's these dang screens taking advantage of our feeble human brains! :gap:

The easy workaround for yellow font on a light background is to highlight the text with your mouse.

:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #9 on: Mar 15, 2018, 07:13:45 PM »
Please don't use a yellow font.

It's really hard for me to read............


 :hammerhead:

Hey e,

Highlight and copy the entire post.

Paste it in a Word doc new page.

Highlight the page.

Click on Font color black or Automatic.

Highlight the page again, click on the upper left corner for Style, click Clear Formatting.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #10 on: Mar 15, 2018, 07:18:17 PM »
Here I fixed it....

Hey cporche,

On your first failed long block….

Based upon your comments and your description of the engine failure, which appears to be catastrophic, I find it difficult to understand what parts were used, what machining was done to the block, and who assembled the long block?  Did the shop rebuild the long block or did they buy it from an eBay supplier and sell it to you?

“The shop i bought it from assembled the long block, i am unsure of weather they performed the actual machining or it was outsourced. i seem to believe it was outsourced tho i vaguely remember him saying he would have to send it out.:

On your new rebuilt long block… What specific machining was done to the block?

“I tried to get this information from him, he would only reply with everything is to the manufactures spec to that part. i asked several times if chrome coated rings require special machining. He said the machinest was given the ring information and machined it accordingly.”

What new parts were used?

“to my knowledge everything is new except the crank and rods, new aftermarket head, timing cover, timing components, gaskets, new rv cam, new bearings. Let me reiterate he was kind of beating around the bush with me when i asked”

Other than NPR rings, whose parts were used?

“The parts kit based on what the boxes looked like when i picked up the motor was evergreen”

Was the head rebuilt or new?

"New aftermarket (i can confirm aftermarket based on the poor machining quality it wouldnt have passed any oem quality check.)”


What camshaft was installed and what valve lash was set?

“He said rv 261 cam, .005 in and .007 exhaust. It is very tight but the cam card does reflect this however he didnt give me a copy of it, and i couldnt see the manufacturer.”

Did this shop recommend a break-in procedure?

“He did not mention the oil priming that i performed, he said just dump them over the cam and crank with out plugs until oil pressure builds. I have the tool tho, why not use it and give the motor the best chance of no failing. Everything else other then first oil filter change at 50 miles. I waited until 300 miles and did an entire oil change.”

How many miles on the break-in now and how much oil is it using?

“~650 miles i have 2 tanks on this oil change sofar and the oil has not dropped. However i have to fill up today on the way home hopefully i will see no change but i will update if there is. also he instructed me that it needs to be 1/4 inch above the full line on the dipstick, he claims toyota never made a different stick for 4x4 and the oil level is too low on incline. I call bull crap but until im out of warranty im abiding by his rules”

What are the engine specs and all parts used?

“I have no spec sheet from the rebuild so i have to take his word for everything is "at spec now"”


What oil are you using?

“Right now its got rotella 10-40 per his request.”


Quote from: EASYRYDERDANGER on Yesterday at 09:29:33 PM
Sound like u may have been concerned so I'll let you know that the aftermarket head is most likely better than the OEM one that was on there.  The stock japanese ones are known for their porous  aluminum.

“Im not saying because its aftermarket that its of poor quality or anything of the sort, ive worked in independent automotive repair most of my career, however the intake holes not lining up (as pictures with gasket on the head) and having to tap the exhaust manifold stud holes does give me low confidence in how well the head was machined.”

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2018, 02:28:27 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #11 on: Mar 15, 2018, 07:28:08 PM »
cporche,

Thank you very much for the post and answers.

I need some time to digest your post and comments.

I'll try to post a reply tomorrow.

There is a lot of information I would like to address.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #12 on: Mar 16, 2018, 03:17:06 AM »
Hey cporche,

For what it may be worth, here are my thoughts….



On your first failed long block….

Based upon your comments and your description of the engine failure, which appears to be catastrophic, I find it difficult to understand what parts were used, what machining was done to the block, and who assembled the long block?  Did the shop rebuild the long block or did they buy it from an eBay supplier and sell it to you?
“The shop i bought it from assembled the long block, i am unsure of weather they performed the actual machining or it was outsourced. i seem to believe it was outsourced tho i vaguely remember him saying he would have to send it out.:

>>> So it was NOT your block from your Runner?  What is the source?


On your new rebuilt long block… What specific machining was done to the block?
“I tried to get this information from him, he would only reply with everything is to the manufactures spec to that part. i asked several times if chrome coated rings require special machining. He said the machinest was given the ring information and machined it accordingly.”

>>>> If a machine shop, auto shop, or engine builder cannot or will not provide you this information, they are scamming you.  Who is “the manufacturer”?

What new parts were used?
“to my knowledge everything is new except the crank and rods, new aftermarket head, timing cover, timing components, gaskets, new rv cam, new bearings. Let me reiterate he was kind of beating around the bush with me when i asked”

>>> This guy is a not telling you the facts for a reason… he’s not honest, and therefore appears to be a crook and a fraud, or doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.


Other than NPR rings, whose parts were used?
“The parts kit based on what the boxes looked like when i picked up the motor was evergreen”

>>>> Evergreen is a distributor.  NPR is supposedly a Japanese manufacturer, but NPR is known to be a poor quality product by at least one top 22R/RE engine builder, and will not be used.  I believe chrome rings are not typically used or recommended for street 22 rebuilds.  Usually Moly rings are used.

Was the head rebuilt or new?
"New aftermarket (i can confirm aftermarket based on the poor machining quality it wouldnt have passed any oem quality check.)”

>>>> So this guy would NOT tell you the source of this new head?  Is that a BIG RED FLAG!!??


What camshaft was installed and what valve lash was set?
“He said rv 261 cam, .005 in and .007 exhaust. It is very tight but the cam card does reflect this however he didnt give me a copy of it, and i couldnt see the manufacturer.”

>>>> Is this cam from engnbldr?  If it is, the valve lash specs are WRONG!!  Engnbldr’s 261C is spec’d at .007"
 for Intake and .009” for Exhaust.  I’ve never seen a 22R/RE cam spec with valve specs that tight!



Did this shop recommend a break-in procedure?
“He did not mention the oil priming that i performed, he said just dump them over the cam and crank with out plugs until oil pressure builds. I have the tool tho, why not use it and give the motor the best chance of no failing. Everything else other then first oil filter change at 50 miles. I waited until 300 miles and did an entire oil change.”

>>>> So, he did NOT mention how the break-in his newly rebuilt engine???  If he didn’t tell you what he recommended for a break-in procedure he is stupid!

How many miles on the break-in now and how much oil is it using?
“~650 miles i have 2 tanks on this oil change sofar and the oil has not dropped. However i have to fill up today on the way home hopefully i will see no change but i will update if there is. also he instructed me that it needs to be 1/4 inch above the full line on the dipstick, he claims toyota never made a different stick for 4x4 and the oil level is too low on incline. I call bull crap but until im out of warranty im abiding by his rules”

>>> I have NEVER heard of anyone saying or recommending to over fill a dip stick reading!!   Ľ” above the full mark on a 22 dip stick would equal a tad less than ˝ quart.  That is clearly ignorant.. over filling a crankcase can cause foaming, lubrication starving, and blown seals.  He probably told you that to prevent you from running low on oil before you noticed it… another indication this guy is stupid.

What are the engine specs and all parts used?
“I have no spec sheet from the rebuild so i have to take his word for everything is "at spec now"”

>>>>>  No specifications of the rebuild?... another reason to believe this guy is a scam.  “at spec now”… what the hell does that mean?  WHOSE SPECS???  What hone grit and RA did is spec'd? What crosshatch did the machine shop machine?  That specification is critical!!

What oil are you using?
“Right now its got rotella 10-40 per his request.”

>>> I assume its NOT Rotella T, which is synthetic?


Quote from: EASYRYDERDANGER on Yesterday at 09:29:33 PM
Sound like u may have been concerned so I'll let you know that the aftermarket head is most likely better than the OEM one that was on there.  The stock japanese ones are known for their porous  aluminum.

“Im not saying because its aftermarket that its of poor quality or anything of the sort, ive worked in independent automotive repair most of my career, however the intake holes not lining up (as pictures with gasket on the head) and having to tap the exhaust manifold stud holes does give me low confidence in how well the head was machined.”

>>> That head was NOT a quality head and sounds like the worst aftermarket head I’ve read about.  If that is the poor quality of parts that guy is using, he’s an idiot!!  Was it new or remanufactured?

Although possible, I am unaware of a historical porosity problem with factory “stock Japanese” 22 heads.  I do know that, according to my local head shop, that the factory 22 head has a problem with #3 chamber where the water port cracks across to the chamber, and (other than overheating) electrolysis is a major cause of the alloy head corrosion and head gasket failure.

Cporche… I’m very surprised that you say you have “worked in independent automotive repair most of my career” and have gone through this ordeal without getting the facts, the specifications, checking out the reputation of your engine builder, the sources of the parts, the suppliers, and end up having a guy and shop sell you an engine that clearly was JUNK.

Other than racing circles, it is rare that a rebuild shop or distributor would not reveal every aspect of their engine specs and sources.

Did this guy provide you a Warranty?  I am surprised that he did rebuild your fubar'd engine... that is one positive and commendable aspect about the guy.

I always hate to read about someone going through your kind of "fiasco".  :down:


Gnarls.  :dunno:
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2018, 06:53:18 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

cporche [OP]

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #13 on: Mar 16, 2018, 08:20:33 AM »
very sorry about the yellow font, on my computer it was a super dark yellow didnt think of everyone else. sorry about that made it maroon. like what someone said you can highlight it with the cursor. Going to go through your comments now gnarly

cporche [OP]

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #14 on: Mar 16, 2018, 09:58:40 AM »
Hey cporche,

For what it may be worth, here are my thoughts….



On your first failed long block….

Based upon your comments and your description of the engine failure, which appears to be catastrophic, I find it difficult to understand what parts were used, what machining was done to the block, and who assembled the long block?  Did the shop rebuild the long block or did they buy it from an eBay supplier and sell it to you?
“The shop i bought it from assembled the long block, i am unsure of weather they performed the actual machining or it was outsourced. i seem to believe it was outsourced tho i vaguely remember him saying he would have to send it out.:

>>> So it was NOT your block from your Runner?  What is the source?
correct, the original motor was given as a core at the time of the picking up the first rebuild. the first rebuild was not rebuilt again (he said because he would have to bore to .030 over it would be more then what i purchased so he did another exchange unit)


On your new rebuilt long block… What specific machining was done to the block?
“I tried to get this information from him, he would only reply with everything is to the manufactures spec to that part. i asked several times if chrome coated rings require special machining. He said the machinest was given the ring information and machined it accordingly.”

>>>> If a machine shop, auto shop, or engine builder cannot or will not provide you this information, they are scamming you.  Who is “the manufacturer”?
yep this is partally my fault i should have seen the red flags on the first engine

What new parts were used?
“to my knowledge everything is new except the crank and rods, new aftermarket head, timing cover, timing components, gaskets, new rv cam, new bearings. Let me reiterate he was kind of beating around the bush with me when i asked”

>>> This guy is a not telling you the facts for a reason… he’s not honest, and therefore appears to be a crook and a fraud, or doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.

yep, from what i have gathered sofar i think he was a backyard engine builder that basically purchased a shop to work out of, again my fault for not enough research upfront

Other than NPR rings, whose parts were used?
“The parts kit based on what the boxes looked like when i picked up the motor was evergreen”

>>>> Evergreen is a distributor.  NPR is supposedly a Japanese manufacturer, but NPR is known to be a poor quality product by at least one top 22R/RE engine builder, and will not be used.  I believe chrome rings are not typically used or recommended for street 22 rebuilds.  Usually Moly rings are used.
yep, all info i found out after the first motor didnt do enough research prior to that. now im at the engine builders word.

Was the head rebuilt or new?
"New aftermarket (i can confirm aftermarket based on the poor machining quality it wouldnt have passed any oem quality check.)”

>>>> So this guy would NOT tell you the source of this new head?  Is that a BIG RED FLAG!!??

basically at this point im giving my another chance taking his word that everything will be ok, before i start asking for my money back

What camshaft was installed and what valve lash was set?
“He said rv 261 cam, .005 in and .007 exhaust. It is very tight but the cam card does reflect this however he didnt give me a copy of it, and i couldnt see the manufacturer.”

>>>> Is this cam from engnbldr?  If it is, the valve lash specs are WRONG!!  Engnbldr’s 261C is spec’d at .007"
 for Intake and .009” for Exhaust.  I’ve never seen a 22R/RE cam spec with valve specs that tight!

He claims i will be given a cam card this saturday when he does an inspection of my motor and install to reup the warranty for another year and unlimited miles


Did this shop recommend a break-in procedure?
“He did not mention the oil priming that i performed, he said just dump them over the cam and crank with out plugs until oil pressure builds. I have the tool tho, why not use it and give the motor the best chance of no failing. Everything else other then first oil filter change at 50 miles. I waited until 300 miles and did an entire oil change.”

>>>> So, he did NOT mention how the break-in his newly rebuilt engine???  If he didn’t tell you what he recommended for a break-in procedure he is stupid!

How many miles on the break-in now and how much oil is it using?
“~650 miles i have 2 tanks on this oil change sofar and the oil has not dropped. However i have to fill up today on the way home hopefully i will see no change but i will update if there is. also he instructed me that it needs to be 1/4 inch above the full line on the dipstick, he claims toyota never made a different stick for 4x4 and the oil level is too low on incline. I call bull crap but until im out of warranty im abiding by his rules”

>>> I have NEVER heard of anyone saying or recommending to over fill a dip stick reading!!   Ľ” above the full mark on a 22 dip stick would equal a tad less than ˝ quart.  That is clearly ignorant.. over filling a crankcase can cause foaming, lubrication starving, and blown seals.  He probably told you that to prevent you from running low on oil before you noticed it… another indication this guy is stupid.
yeah this sounded so wrong to me however once it gets the final inspection tomorrow it will be back to normal operating levels at this point im just doing what he says to if it fails he cant blame me.

What are the engine specs and all parts used?
“I have no spec sheet from the rebuild so i have to take his word for everything is "at spec now"”

>>>>>  No specifications of the rebuild?... another reason to believe this guy is a scam.  “at spec now”… what the hell does that mean?  WHOSE SPECS???  What hone grit and RA did is spec'd? What crosshatch did the machine shop machine?  That specification is critical!!
the more i talk to him i think he just doesnt know, i feel hes not an engine builder at all but a parts assembler

What oil are you using?
“Right now its got rotella 10-40 per his request.”

>>> I assume its NOT Rotella T, which is synthetic?
http://rotella.shell.com/products/rotella-triple-protection.html
Sorry miss-spoke 15-40 from what i was able to get off thier website this is not a sythetic oil. Personally i think its a sythetic blend but again, his requirement



Quote from: EASYRYDERDANGER on Yesterday at 09:29:33 PM
Sound like u may have been concerned so I'll let you know that the aftermarket head is most likely better than the OEM one that was on there.  The stock japanese ones are known for their porous  aluminum.

“Im not saying because its aftermarket that its of poor quality or anything of the sort, ive worked in independent automotive repair most of my career, however the intake holes not lining up (as pictures with gasket on the head) and having to tap the exhaust manifold stud holes does give me low confidence in how well the head was machined.”

>>> That head was NOT a quality head and sounds like the worst aftermarket head I’ve read about.  If that is the poor quality of parts that guy is using, he’s an idiot!!  Was it new or remanufactured?

Although possible, I am unaware of a historical porosity problem with factory “stock Japanese” 22 heads.  I do know that, according to my local head shop, that the factory 22 head has a problem with #3 chamber where the water port cracks across to the chamber, and (other than overheating) electrolysis is a major cause of the alloy head corrosion and head gasket failure.

Cporche… I’m very surprised that you say you have “worked in independent automotive repair most of my career” and have gone through this ordeal without getting the facts, the specifications, checking out the reputation of your engine builder, the sources of the parts, the suppliers, and end up having a guy and shop sell you an engine that clearly was JUNK.

Other than racing circles, it is rare that a rebuild shop or distributor would not reveal every aspect of their engine specs and sources.

Did this guy provide you a Warranty?  I am surprised that he did rebuild your fubar'd engine... that is one positive and commendable aspect about the guy.

I always hate to read about someone going through your kind of "fiasco".  :down:

yes and no, i did 12 years at transmission specialty shops that would rarely do engine replacement. We did have a reputable engine builder that i could have went to, but was more expensive for a stock rebuild then putney's stage 3 blue printed build. I decided to go with a cheaper alternative, which bit me in the butt hard. Typically in the aftermarket when you outsource work its to a reputable place and to be completely honest we dont find out exactly what parts are going in. Before getting into this engine i would have never been able to know that npr was a crappy ring manufacture thats why we outsource to someone that knows what they are doing.
I think my biggest flaw was i was naive in thinking the reviews on the business where enough. Typically in the shop we would get word of mouth referrals on where to send certain things. For instance the engine builder we used in the shop (at roughly once every 2 years) name was given to us by a performance shop that was across the street from us. They actually let go of thier engine builder and just started outsourcing solely to this company. Which was good enough for us. I had the flawed logic of going hey, if they got good reviews and success stories he should be reputable. Upon some research in the last few days i have come to the realization the many of the "good reviews" were simply his friends and family members vouching for him. i did end up comming across some very poor reviews in the last few days....


Originally i was give a 1 year unlimited mile warranty, after the first engine crapped out he said i get another 1 year unlimited mile pending final inspection tomorrow.

As a side not in the trans industry we get parts from a supplies like trans-star, nat pro, precision internation, W.I.T. ect, ect. They do the research for us thats what we pay for over time we find out which kits to buy from which distributor. But it would be near impossible to find out what company actually makes the 2-4 servo cover oring for a 4l60E with out hours and hours of research. Frankly its not cost effective we use it once, hey it works or hey we had a failure after 500 miles, lets try another distributor.

As for him covering his warranty, like you i was actually surprised there was a time line that i thought it was going to be very questionable and he still covered it, heres how it went.

Roughly 3-4 months in i still had high oil consumption and valve train noise after multiple valve adjustments. Called he said sometimes they can take up to 8000 miles for oil consumption to slow down (first red flag i started paying attention to.) At 10 months i reached out to him again when oil consumption did now slow down and i decided to check compression. The next conversation went at such

Me:hey whats the compression supposed to be on this rebuilt long block (i already knew i was low in the 140's but did not tell him yet)
him:165, maybe 155 if your alittle higher up
Me:well dog i got 140 across the board what do you want me to do
him: do a wet compression test
Me: i would prefer not to, i have a cylinder leak down tester i can take pictures of the gauges and it would be more accurate
Him: i would rather just old school wet compression
Me: ok, fine i'll report back shortly

*next call*
Me: so im at 180-185 wet compression seems to me the rings are bad
Him: ok pull the motor back out and bring it to me
Me: well im going out of town for the next couple months for work can i bring it to you after that i really dont have the time until after (This is a total lie i had a wheeling trip planned and i wasnt missing it hell or high water. i knew the engine was already screwed so what the hell i was just going to let it ride keep it full of oil and not do anything stupid)
Him: ok thats fine, since you had issues prior to the end of the warranty i'll still cover it
Me: cool i'll keep you updated


I pulled the engine the day after the wheeling trip, brought it to him the following day after that.


At this point other then my time im still only out about 1500 for the motor, and second round of lce seals that i had to buy because i didnt trust the seal kit he gave me. in totally yes its an expensive mistake but not terrible if it goes before the warranty is up i'll ask for my money back and either do a putney rebuild, do it myself (with tons of more research) or do a 1uz swap. As the 4runner will be a trail vehicle only in the coming 2months. i feel like i left out some details, but im sure you will have more questions.


Gnarls.  :dunno:

H8PVMNT

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #15 on: Mar 16, 2018, 10:41:42 AM »
That's wonderful I assumed NPR rings were OK stuff since they were Japanese. Oh well.
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #16 on: Mar 16, 2018, 07:50:00 PM »
That's wonderful I assumed NPR rings were OK stuff since they were Japanese. Oh well.

H,

I’m not saying anything that most savvy people already know…..

The actual source location, Country of Origin, origin of manufacturing, of many suppliers, distributors, OEMs, and aftermarket sellers in many different industries and markets may NOT be the same as what is advertised or promoted.  The United States Federal Trade Commission can be bought, just like the FDA and other government agencies.

NPR is a “global” company -  may be a Japanese company headquartered Japan.  Take a couple minutes to peruse their site.  Look at “Overseas Bases”.

http://www.npr.co.jp/english/company/company04_01.html#pagetitle01

If you buy a Toyota or Honda vehicle, most of it is made from parts from different sources, including the USA, and they are considered top “Made in USA” automobiles.  If you buy a Chevy, much of its parts are made in China, GM has a manufacturing plant in China.

I was told that the Toyota NPR rings are NOT made in Japan.  I have no way of validating that comment, but I trust the person who told me, as they have no reason to fabricate a lie, and every reason NOT to use poor quality products in their business.

There are known Toyota after market parts that have a reputation for high level quality, but you have to find the source for who truly knows that fact.

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2018, 02:08:01 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #17 on: Mar 17, 2018, 04:08:16 AM »
Hey cporche,

First, don’t beat yourself up, your experience is not uncommon, and can happen to very smart and experienced people.  There are 100s of posts on many automotive forums that describe very similar scenarios.  :therethere:

As anal as I think I am, and as smart on research as I think I do, I still get scammed and screwed.  :yikes:

On engine rebuilds, the machine work, bore, hone, crosshatching, and RA are critical for the right ring and piston selection.  Based upon what this guy has been telling you, he’s clueless, BUT apparently not completely unscrupulous.

Typically, the rings should seat within a few hundred miles.  Rotella 15-40 comes in conventional, synthetic blend, and full synthetic.  I think 15-40 is not commonly recommended for this rebuild.  :dunno:

Keep track of your mileage and oil consumption.  I’d pull the spark plugs and see what they look like.  I’d do a compression check now.  I would make darn sure what the valve lash spec is for the cam and recheck the lash again in a couple 1000 miles.  Recheck and tighten your exhaust nuts - they should take a set in about a few hundred miles.  Document everything you do, so if you have to go back on his “warranty” you have some proof.  :thumbs:

So far it sounds like he has rebuilt it to “spec”.  :crossed:

Thank you for being so candid about your experience and taking the time to detail it here.  :biggthumpup:

It is a great lesson learned, and highly educational to know about.  :yesnod:

Please keep us posted.  :gap:

Gnarls.  :spin:
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2018, 08:51:15 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

cporche [OP]

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Re: Cporche's engine fiasco
« Reply #18 on: Aug 30, 2018, 07:15:03 AM »
small update ive done a couple of trails since the motor swap, almost immediately after finishing i started my solid axle swap and doubler install. Engine seems to be doing fine its still only have probably around 1000 miles on it, its a trailer queen now. I did however figure out my lack of power and over heating issue (very minor 2/3 of the way up the gauge), both were contributed to a lean condition. I found my tps was slightly out of spec, not enough to set a check engine light (i imagine it was close to setting one unless it only set a code for it unless its an open circuit.)  the adjustment with the .50 mm feeler gauge should have been <2300 ohms and i was right around 8200 ohms. Replaced the tps and my temps came down, my hesitation when rolling off idle is gone, and i have tons more power. The most frustrating part of it was i checked it prior to putting the motor back in, and i had correct values. Oh well at least its doing better now lol.

 
 
 
 
 

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