Topic: Toybrota's 22R build

[Gnarly4X]

Hey T,

So right now is appears you have done a great job on this rebuild.  In fact, one of the very best reported DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilds on a 22 I’ve tracked in quite awhile.  Machining it right, choosing the right parts, diagnosing, thinking outside the box, taking in comments and advise from others, and being committed to doing it right, really does make a difference in the outcome.

I’m old school so I have never used a A/FR gauge.  From my very first go-kart racing days, I learned with limited tools and gauges.  My dad was an old school auto mechanic and taught me to use what we had (back in the early 60’s)… our ears, eyes, and butt dyno. 

I’m very interested to see what you discover as you continue to learn and tune your engine, and especially with the purchase and comparison of a wideband A/FR gauge - for hopefully more accurate reading and tuning. 

On the Weber carb, I ran Webers for about 8 years on my 3 sand rails. Two things were key for keeping them happy – they are fussy about wanting clean fuel and clean air, and mine liked lots of air flow.  Fuel and air filters were my best friends.  The right electric fuel pump with the correct PSI was also important.  Fortunately I didn’t have to spend much time “tuning” them on my VW engine. 

According to the Toyota engine builders I’ve talked to, and my own experiences, peak TUNING these little engines is critical to get the very best performance.  I believe this is especially true with a carb’d engine. 

Gnarls. 

[Toybrota [OP]]

Thanks for the kind words Gnarls, I owe a lot of my success to all the members on here that assisted me during the process of rebuilding, you all made if very easy! I've learned a lot, mostly in advice from everyone. Choosing the parts was my favorite process, less favorite to my wallet...

AFR gauges are super helpful, even though mine isn't that accurate, it has told me some things. A real honest-to-god wideband will be even better. I wanna have this thing tuned perfectly... Getting there!

I have heard from you and others on keeping the Weber happy with Clean Air and Fuel. I run two fuel filters, one back at the tank and one after the fuel pump in the engine bay. Proper fuel pressure set with my regulator. I have debated running an electric fuel pump, as some say the weber doesn't like the fuel pulsation the stock Mechanical pump produces. Huge air cleaner, tons of airflow! She breathes really well.
I am curious how these run on other engines, people seem to love these carbs on just about everything they will fit on.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Picked up a valve cover gasket set so I can adjust/check them today. Like I mentioned earlier, there is no tick whatsoever when it's warmed up. Just when cold. So maybe I should wait? So at least one is slightly out of adjustment.
I'll be setting them how Toyota said, 0.008" intake and 0.012 exhaust. Picked up a new feeler gauge set as well. Smallest size it has is 0.008! Perfect.
If I find this is too noisy, I'll drop it a thousandth on both the intake and exhaust. I'll never go more than a thousandth lower.

The valve cover gasket I got I picked up from Baxter Auto parts in Vancouver, cool chain that I've never been to until now.
They didn't have the Beck Arnley. No one near me stocks the Beck Arnley, so I bought it on Amazon.
Why two sets? The Mahle I got is said to work for 85 and up only, the Beck Arnley is for all 20R/22R motors from what I've found.

I'm sure the Mahle will work great, at least it's not fel-pro!

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[Gnarly4X]

Mahle is a high quality product.  That gasket is made out of Victo-Tech, a rubber product invented by Victor Reinz – a highly rated manufacturer and supplier.

I like the B/A kit because it’s made in Japan and it’s a good price ($9.48) from RockAuto.  If you are an Amazon Prime member, you can buy it for only for $9.62 with overnight shipping for free!


Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Mahle is a high quality product.  That gasket is made out of Victo-Tech, a rubber product invented by Victor Reinz – a highly rated manufacturer and supplier.

I like the B/A kit because it’s made in Japan and it’s a good price ($9.48) from RockAuto.  If you are an Amazon Prime member, you can buy it for only for $9.62 with overnight shipping for free!


Gnarls.

Agreed, very high quality. But.... I haven't been able to find the Beck Arnley anywhere stocked near me.
So I bought it on Amazon! Paid for one day shipping, but absolutely did not get it in one day. That's how it goes.

The reason I have two gasket kits is to see the differences between them. The Mahle is technically not for the early 22R motors. The Beck Arnley that I bought, is.

The main difference is the grommets on top, the ones for the later style motor don't even fit on the early. They stick out too far, preventing a valve cover nut from threading on.



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[Toybrota [OP]]

I just got done from doing a valve adjustment on my motor. All looked well, cam appears to be wearing properly.

The valves were all set 0.001" below the factory spec, which makes sense considering that's what I set them at. Like I mentioned, I was going to set them all at factory spec. 0.008" for the intake, and 0.012" for the exhaust.

Didn't even need the new gasket kit, the half moons don't leak and are still sealed on the head. Why removed em?

As for noise, it's definitely noiser than it was before. However, it is set how it's supposed to be. So that's all that matters. I was most concerned about a valve that would only be noisy above idle, as I would be reminded every time I accelerate. Nope. They all seem to click together making for a pleasant (trying to lie to myself here so I don't adjust them again) noise. Like a sewing machine.

Maybe im just stupid, but it seems to idle smoother too. I'll upload a video of how it sounds at idle. http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5cf01c928493d/VID_30471005_181819_935.mp4

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[Toybrota [OP]]

I went ahead and changed the copper oil pressure line over to a braided stainless line. Uses a AN fitting (is that what it's called?) And it seems very solid. The brass adapter threads into the block, followed by the braided like adapter and then the stainless line.
I used permatex thread sealant with PTFE.
Had to snug the nylon line adapter (I'm running the braided line just to get the oil pressure gauge line out of the engine area) so it didn't leak. I attached a line holder on the fender well so it's well out of the way.

I also went ahead and purchased the Permatex products Gnarls recommended for the water plate.
Permatex water pump sealant and then the high performance thread sealant for the bolts.
I'd like to tackle the water plate soon, the sooner I fix all the leaks the more time I can wait and anticipate more!


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[Gnarly4X]

I just got done from doing a valve adjustment on my motor. All looked well, cam appears to be wearing properly.


...  but it seems to idle smoother too. I'll upload a video of how it sounds at idle.

As I've said before, I spent time with my valve lash setting and worked to get the rocker tick as even sounding as I could.  Sometimes I'd have a rocker slightly louder and I'd go back in and fine tune the adjustment on the lash until I got the rocker tick to be the same as the other 7 rockers.

As far as your smoother idle at 8/12, on a factory stock cam, even a .001" change in valve lash changes the overlap degrees.  At stock lash  8/12 the overlap is 2.5 degrees.  Tightening the lash to 7/11 increases the overlap to 2.7 degrees.  Is that enough to affect the idle?... probably not.  Although mama ECU on 22RE apparently is sensitive to a cam profile with bigger overlap.

Personally I like a lopey cam.

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

As I've said before, I spent time with my valve lash setting and worked to get the rocker tick as even sounding as I could.  Sometimes I'd have a rocker slightly louder and I'd go back in and fine tune the adjustment on the lash until I got the rocker tick to be the same as the other 7 rockers.

As far as your smoother idle at 8/12, on a factory stock cam, even a .001" change in valve lash changes the overlap degrees.  At stock lash  8/12 the overlap is 2.5 degrees.  Tightening the lash to 7/11 increases the overlap to 2.7 degrees.  Is that enough to affect the idle?... probably not.  Although mama ECU on 22RE apparently is sensitive to a cam profile with bigger overlap.

Personally I like a lopey cam.

Gnarls.

Thanks for this, the part about overlap degrees really helped! I had to go back and put all my intake valves to .007, but the exhaust are Toyota Spec.


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[Toybrota [OP]]

Well so I took the truck out and explored some forest logging roads out by Camas, searching for a mine.
While I didn't find what I was looking for, I had a great chance to see how this thing does on inclines.
As we all know, the Weber 32/36 hasn't been known for the uphill abilities when put on a 22R.
I was actually surprised at what I was able to go up, it didn't flood at all! This is probably due to my fairly conservative fuel pressure, as I have that set at 2 psi I believe.
I didn't find any I couldn't drive up and not make it, but they weren't the steepest. As with most logging I've found in Washington and Oregon, they are all gated or purposely destroyed.

Anyways, think I'm going to do the Hill climb mod here soon.

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[Toybrota [OP]]

Found the source of my annoying tick while the truck was cold.
I originally thought it was due to loud valvetrain, but it's not. The valvetrain is silent, and sounds great!
The culprit? The valve cover.
I had used and re-used the same valve cover gasket and grommets about 10-15 times. Since the gasket was only a few months old, I had no doubt in my mind that it was still good. Except, rubber overtime becomes less pliable. The Huge O ring had been squished so many times, that the valve cover was getting pulled closer to the cylinder head. Swapped the gasket and grommets out. No tick anymore!
You could actually loosen the back two acorn nuts and hear the tick diminish completely, which immediately told me what the issue was. Not that I had been relentlessly searching for it for months.

The engine has been running great, daily driving it 30-40 miles daily with no issues. The intake plate still seeps ever so slightly from one place, but not enough to drip. Oil pan still seeps, yet the oil level has stayed the same for 2500 miles. 5600 miles total on the build.
Swapped my main/secondary jets out and it runs smoother. Went a size up on both, running a 145 main and 140 secondary at 250' in elevation. Always Costco Top Tier 92 octane. I still have a slight "miss" at idle, that becomes more noticeable after it's sitting after driving. No vacuum leaks, I check regularly! I've just come to understand it as a "22R Thing"
This slight "miss" is completely absent when the truck is cold with the choke on, so maybe that says something.

Re-mounted my fuel Pressure regulator to the cylinder head so it looks better.

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[OVRAROK]

Glad you found it...

[Toybrota [OP]]

Trimmed the bracket for my fuel pressure regulator, went for a more "Low Profile" look.
Not sure if it's gonna stay here, Makes the front of the motor a little cluttered but it does look cool. It's nice to have all the fuel system stuff close together, and this does that perfect.


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[emsvitil]

That may vibrate and break off.

The longer arm may need to be angle iron or thicker to avoid vibrations

[Gnarly4X]

That may vibrate and break off.

The longer arm may need to be angle iron or thicker to avoid vibrations

Safety concerns when looking at anything to do with gasoline is important.... However....

Although vibrations caused by the engine are certainly there, if vibrations were causing things to break, there's a whole lot of other parts that would never survive! 

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3178.htm

This fuel regulator is a high quality unit that comes with that metal bracket.  If the bracket had a history of failure, Petrol King would have fixed it.

I'd  be very surprised to see that bracket fail because of vibrations - even with the trimming that was done.

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Fairly certain my carb base gasket is leaking, if I spray carb cleaner and soak the gasket it slowly stumbles and gets worse.
Doesn't make sense to me, new intake+gaskets+carb+spacer shouldn't equal a leak.

I tried a new gasket (top side of the spacer between the carb and said spacer) and it did nothing. I coated the original ones lightly with RTV and it hasn't seemed to do anything either.

I guess it would explain my slight missfire I've had for months that I've tried over and over to fix. My idle also varies by 50-100 RPM.

What do you all think?


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[Toybrota [OP]]

Well everyone, I finally caved. Instead of "Wondering" what might be a cause, I dropped the damn thing off at a shop. They are gonna use their smoker to check for vacuum leaks, and do some other tests.
I'm not having them repair anything, simply just checking what's wrong so I can fix it. If I know it's "X, Y, or Z, I can know where to start.

My patience has been running thin, I am beginning to no longer enjoy working on this thing. I'm not an expert, nor will I ever claim to be.

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[Gnarly4X]

Well everyone, I finally caved. Instead of "Wondering" what might be a cause, I dropped the damn thing off at a shop. They are gonna use their smoker to check for vacuum leaks, and do some other tests.
I'm not having them repair anything, simply just checking what's wrong so I can fix it. If I know it's "X, Y, or Z, I can know where to start.

My patience has been running thin, I am beginning to no longer enjoy working on this thing. I'm not an expert, nor will I ever claim to be.

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Hey T,

Don’t feel like the Lone Ranger regarding your frustration.  Experts and pros experience it just as much as the non-expert DIYer.

From my experience owning and maintaining “old” vehicles (and I’ve owned many), it can be very rewarding to very frustrating, from very low cost of ownership to very expensive, from very time saving to incredibly time-sucking.

Finding a “shop” or the so-called “expert” that truly knows their fecal matter has not been easy for me.  I hope the shop you are trusting will find and diagnose your problem(s).

Has LCE (your source for the intake?) offered any support or help? 

Just my gut feeling… your “leaks” seem to be happening and NOT easily diagnosed and then fixable?  I HATE leaks!  But, leaks should be fairly easy to fix once identified.

I am curious what your shop finds, what they charge you, and then how the fix works?

Gnarls.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Just got a call from the Autoshop I dropped my truck off at.
Pegoraro Auto in Vancouver Washington, for those who are curious!

What did they find? Nothing. They hooked it up to a smoker and didn't see or couldn't find any leaks, which is interesting. Why? Because if I continuously spray carb clean at the base gaskets, it'll sputter like there is one. I cover the air filter opening when I spray, ensuring no rouge mist gets sucked in.
I believe them for sure, I've got no reason not to.

They did say they played with the mixture and idle adjustment screws, not sure what they changed. Chances are, I've run their exact setting at one point or another. They did say it runs pretty good, which I knew it did.
I'll be curious to know if the slight rumble in my seat is gone or not, we shall see.
So I spent $85 to confirm what I wasn't sure of, and to me that's worth it.



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[Toybrota [OP]]

Got my truck back a few days ago, And I was furious.
The thing wouldn't idle lower than 1200 RPM, the speed screw was in more than 2 turns - exposing the fuel port that was dumping excess fuel into the intake.
The guy made it sound like they had a Toyota expert, I am doubting this. I didn't even give them permission to adjust the Carb, it was fine prior to me taking it in. I asked for one thing and one thing only, checking for vacuum leaks with a smoker.
They claim this was done, wasn't mentioned on the receipt.
They also said a cause of the high idle could be different conditions in which it was adjusted. Total BS.

I learned NOT to take my truck to someone else.

How does a passed smoker test explain the clear stumble when I spray the carb base with carb cleaner? I block the air filter with my hand, there is no carb cleaner going in thru the filter.

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[Gnarly4X]

Hey T...

Sorry for your bad experience.

I’ll share a short story about an “expert” automotive shop… I have some great stories to share, but this one is one of my favorite.

My Ammeter in my first 1986 was reading a charge at around 55 amps.  I checked EVERTHIING I knew to check.  I could not figure out why the alternator wanted to charge so much.

I took my truck to an “automotive electric” specialty shop.  Three (3) “experts” poured over my truck for about 1 hour.  They blamed all kinds of things, the alternator, my wiring, and of course the Autometer Ammeter, which had been working perfectly for almost 7 years.  I drove home thinking.  The ammeter is just reading the alternator’s output.  There has to be some resistance somewhere and the alternator is trying to charge the battery.  I decided to remove the battery cables one more time.  As I was unbolting the positive battery clamp the bolt literally broke out of the casted lead clamp.  It exposed a pocket of corrosion around the bolt head that was enough to cause a high resistance.  I happened to have a spare, I replace it and the ammeter and alternator were both very happy again.

Moral:  I rarely trust anyone who claims to be an automotive expert…. Even though I know there are some out there.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Automotive expert checking in here.
Your stumble you experience when continuously spraying carb cleaner at the base of the carb is likely caused from the normal vacuum leak at the throttle shaft. Don’t feel bad I have been fooled by this more than once. You also chose the correct next step and that is a smoke test to verify the leak is from the throttle shaft.
I’m not shocked they found no leak with their smoke test as the throttle shaft leak is small on a new carb.
As for taking your vehicle to a shop it’s the same as any time you have something done by someone else. It’s a 50/50 chance. Sorry it didn’t work out this time, please believe We are all not that way.
Some of us care and go above and beyond expectations. Maybe even at a Legendary level.

[Gnarly4X]

 

Automotive expert checking in here.

Weber’s throttle shaft leak is well-known, and doesn’t happen on every Weber carb.  I ran Webers for 8 years on my 3 sand rails and did not have an issue with that – but I knew guys who did. 

Here’s why the smoke test may not work…

http://www.carburetor-blog.com/my-carburetor-is-leaking-at-the-throttle-shaft/

Now regarding “experts”…  not to blow sunshine up bgen’s knickers, he has been a friend on this forum, and obviously to his fan club in WA and has many times offered “expert” help.

So… he does demonstrate a caring heart and probably does go beyond expectations often. 

By word definition, bgen definitely qualifies as an expert: 

“a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area.”

“specialist, authority, pundit, oracle, resource person”…. If you can be an “oracle”, you are most likely at a "legendary level”. 

Is he at a “Legendary Level?..... He’s a legend in my mind. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hey T......

What's new? 

Gnarls. 

[Toybrota [OP]]

Hey T......

What's new? 

Gnarls. 

Hey Gnarls, not much!

I apologise for being somewhat absent with this particular thread. I read just about everything you guys post on here, even when I don't respond to it. I've had more guidance and help from you all than I've gotten anywhere else!

Especially Gnarly4x4 And BestGen4Runner, the endless question answering has helped so much!

Anyways, not much has been happening in regards to this build. Which I guess for me, is a good thing! Just been driving it and really enjoying it. I'm having other issues that aren't engine related, which actually makes me happy because that's one less engine thing to have to worry about.
I've hit over 6500 miles total on this engine, which is just baby steps to what I want out of it.
Still not burning any oil! Did the first oil change since I moved to WA about a week ago, and it came out looking nice and clean. Running Pennzoil 10W-30, switched from 5W-30.
Still have great oil pressure, 60+ psi while cruising on the freeway here. That is, when the traffic in Portland allows you to cruise without stopping.
Getting a fairly consistent 17-19 mpg, I've still been messing around with different jetting to see what gets me the best power, and I think I've got it where it runs the best. Changing idle jets around showed me that it runs smoother with the stock idle jet sizes, so that's what I've been running.

It still leaks a drop of oil now and then, still not enough for me to have to add any oil between Changes. So is it really worth fixing? Absolutely, just not right now! It's leaking from the pan, so it's not the hardest leak to fix.
Still slowly leaks from the intake plate, I am fairly certain that leak has slowed down immensely. Still going to fix it eventually. Maybe. Don't have to add coolant ever.
I check all the fluids several times a week, and not adding any sure feels nice. Unless you count gas.

Only "Qualm" I've had is with the front valve cover breather I'm running. I know you are required to oil K&N air filters, and for obvious reasons. The breather however, didn't come oiled (pretty sure). This worried me, as I thought about all the potential dust that may get sucked in. I pulled the breather off and it was super clean inside, and smelled and looked oily. So obviously no dirt is getting in, and oil vapors trying to escape have oiled it for me. So I probably won't go ahead and oil it unless you guys can recommend it, which I definitely will then. Just can't see a reason if it's cleaner than my undies and isn't dusty.

I picked up a Multiprocess welder (mig, stick, Tig) and I've been thinking about modifying my stock air filter and using that instead of my open element filter I'm currently using. I'd cut out the hose nipples I don't need, and weld covers on. I'd love a stock look, with the option to keep the Weber. The Weber is staying. Love it too much. LC engineering sells an adapter to run the factory air cleaner on the Weber. I think this is how most guys trick smog time, they run the factory air cleaner to fool unsuspecting smog stations.

This truck has made one nice dirtbike hauler, been enjoying the trails here in Washington. Despite the fact I can't park on a dirt road without getting fines.
Everywhere I've been requires a "Discover Pass" to even park, let alone use hiking trails or whatever.
I get why, they wouldn't have any other way to fund trail management (no income tax in Washington).

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[Gnarly4X]

Hey T,

Glad to read you are enjoying your Toy.

Sounds like you did a great job on that rebuild!

Unless I was in a very cold climate, I’d stick with 10-30 motor oil.

17 to 19 MPG is the average range I got on 22R at about 1100 feet elevation.

I hate leaks, so I’d be fixing those… I’m too anal about leaks.

I like the carb air filter you have now.... as long as you stick with just a paper filter... not oiled!

On the rocker cover filter, you don’t have to oil the K&N.  I ran K&N air filters for 8 years, I can write a short story about my experience and opinions… I don’t like them and would not run them on my engines.

If you are really concerned about that little filter you can buy one these every 6 months:

https://www.amazon.com/Spectre-Performance-Black-Breather-Filter/dp/B005BHXTY6/ref=asc_df_B005BHXTY6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312157681632&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17097269613921438172&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030014&hvtargid=pla-570856997661&psc=1

This modification was very noticeable after installing a DT header and opened exhaust:  I just stacked two stock paper air filters.

[Toybrota [OP]]

Hey T,

Glad to read you are enjoying your Toy.

Sounds like you did a great job on that rebuild!

Unless I was in a very cold climate, I’d stick with 10-30 motor oil.

17 to 19 MPG is the average range I got on 22R at about 1100 feet elevation.

I hate leaks, so I’d be fixing those… I’m too anal about leaks.

I like the carb air filter you have now.... as long as you stick with just a paper filter... not oiled!

On the rocker cover filter, you don’t have to oil the K&N.  I ran K&N air filters for 8 years, I can write a short story about my experience and opinions… I don’t like them and would not run them on my engines.

If you are really concerned about that little filter you can buy one these every 6 months:

https://www.amazon.com/Spectre-Performance-Black-Breather-Filter/dp/B005BHXTY6/ref=asc_df_B005BHXTY6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312157681632&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17097269613921438172&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030014&hvtargid=pla-570856997661&psc=1

This modification was very noticeable after installing a DT header and opened exhaust:  I just stacked two stock paper air filters.

I was running 5W-30 in Salt Lake, where it got fairly cold in the winter! 10W-30 is fine for anywhere I could take this thing in the US. Anywhere I'd wanna go that is haha.
I'm real happy with the MPG, fueled up again today at 19.2 mpg. That was with driving around in the hills too, I bet a freeway exclusive trip on fairly flat roads would produce 20-21 easily.

I definitely won't run a K&N air filter ever, I just don't think they are worth it. The breather is good, I won't worry about oiling it. Might as well keep it and not worry about replacing it like I would with the specter. Thanks for the link though!

I always thought that dual stacked filter method you used was cool, I've seen you post it before somewhere. How much louder was it? I'd bet it was very noticeable. I can't see flow helping me on my stock choked exhaust and cyl head. Maybe I'm wrong?

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[Toybrota [OP]]

Added a small addition today to my Weber. I love running the manual choke, but I definitely don't need the full choke range. I bough this cable stop kit from O'Reilly auto parts. Doorman part 03336.
I have it set to stop at about half choke, I'll see how this works tomorrow.
The whole goal is just less guesswork when it's a cold start, just pull it until it stops and crank. The plan is to have it idle at 1200 when it's fully pulled when cold, which seems about a good cold idle.

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[Gnarly4X]

Hey T,

Soooo…. a 22R with or without a choke, automatic or manual may not always allow a cold start to be smooth or idle smoothly.  I always had to feather and massage my 22R with my gas pedal when cold starting.  I actually really liked that part of starting my engine… it’s like I’m connected to it and I can hear sounds to know what’s going on with it.  I don’t mind a little blubber or misfiring immediately at a cold start. 

Obviously with a manual choke you need to pay attention to the sound when if fires or attempting to fire.  It’s most likely going to be an overly rich A/F Ratio – not 14.7:1.

Ambient temperature, relative humidity, and elevation can absolutely affect a carb’d engine.

Just my thoughts on carb’d engines.

The guy that can provide some good feedback on his experiences with cold starting a Weber is H8PVMNT. 

Gnarls.

[CORRODED]

Great thread!