Topic: Wideband AFR gauge suggestions

[Tw814!]

Have the lpg turbo 22r currently with a PLX brand afr from LCE that doesn't seem to work very well. It's been returned but still having issues with display and acknowledging the sensor.  Looking for a replacement that someone could recommend!   Autometer any good?  Innovate?  AEM? 
Thanks

[OVRAROK]

Autometer are great gauges 

[SqWADoosh]

Just picked up an AEM Uego myself after much research and weighing out cost vs quality. I'll let you know how it goes.

[H8PVMNT]

I am trying the same AEM gauge for the same reasons.  It seems to be the best of the cheaper ones based on reviews.  I really haven't ran it long enough to make any recommendations except that it does work.

I think this is one of those items that the more you spend the better off you will be.  You just have to decide how much you are willing to spend.

[Gnarly4X]

I've never installed an AFR meter/gauge, but I'm thinking about getting one.  I think the gauges and O2 sensors are now less expensive and more accurate than perhaps 25 years ago. 

I'm very interested to learn what things or changes effect the reading of the gauge, and how much change is done, and what was your decision based upon to make those changes, while attempting to find the desired or target AFR reading. 

Thank you. 

Gnarls.

[SqWADoosh]

I've never installed an AFR meter/gauge, but I'm thinking about getting one.  I think the gauges and O2 sensors are now less expensive and more accurate than perhaps 25 years ago. 

I'm very interested to learn what things or changes effect the reading of the gauge, and how much change is done, and what was your decision based upon to make those changes, while attempting to find the desired or target AFR reading. 

Thank you. 

Gnarls.

You have no need for one unless you are running forced induction.

[Gnarly4X]

You have no need for one unless you are running forced induction.

Well, naturally squash you are entitled to your opinion, however my needs may not be the same are YOUR needs.

Gnarls.

[SqWADoosh]

Well, naturally squash you are entitled to your opinion, however my needs may not be the same are YOUR needs.

Gnarls.

No that is a blanket statement. There is no need for a AFR gauge if you are not utilizing force induction. Pretty well known fact. Don't bother with one of your long drawn out arguments. You aren't going to change my mind on that. Save it for one of the already numerous clogged threads you have going.

[300k]

You have no need for one unless you are running forced induction.

Us carb guys have more reason to have an A/F gauge than anyone else...and I think you maybe wasted some money just getting a 150 dollar A/F gauge when you could have had a 300 dollar digi gauge. https://edgeproducts.com/shop/insight-cs2-for-toyota-84031

as far as why gnarls is gonna run one with a non-tunable 22re? that's his deal

[Mudder]

An AFR gauge is only useful for forced induction or tuning a carburetor. I personally use a handheld one,  it's the innovate LM2 and is capable of data logging.

[SqWADoosh]

Us carb guys have more reason to have an A/F gauge than anyone else...and I think you maybe wasted some money just getting a 150 dollar A/F gauge when you could have had a 300 dollar digi gauge. https://edgeproducts.com/shop/insight-cs2-for-toyota-84031

as far as why gnarls is gonna run one with a non-tunable 22re? that's his deal

Right I wasted money by not spending twice as much money on something I don't need...    He's running a 22re. Guess what the E stands for.

[Mudder]

Us carb guys have more reason to have an A/F gauge than anyone else...and I think you maybe wasted some money just getting a 150 dollar A/F gauge when you could have had a 300 dollar digi gauge. https://edgeproducts.com/shop/insight-cs2-for-toyota-84031

as far as why gnarls is gonna run one with a non-tunable 22re? that's his deal

Actually FI guys need it more.

[300k]

Right I wasted money by not spending twice as much money on something I don't need...    He's running a 22re. Guess what the E stands for.

if you think spending half as much and getting one reading is a better deal than spending 300 and knowing EVERYTHING the ECU knows, then have at it. I know if I had an OBD port I'd be running an insight ASAP. I'm not sure what you mean by the 22re thing, without a megasquirt you can't really tune with an A/F gauge.

[SqWADoosh]

if you think spending half as much and getting one reading is a better deal than spending 300 and knowing EVERYTHING the ECU knows, then have at it. I know if I had an OBD port I'd be running an insight ASAP. I'm not sure what you mean by the 22re thing, without a megasquirt you can't really tune with an A/F gauge.

Alright since you want to act like you know what you are talking about sure I'll bite the bait. First of all my truck is a 98. It doesn't have a A/F sensor from the factory. You might notice something missing in that $300 ricer tablet you've got such admiration for above. There is no wideband bung. That is for use with later model vehicles that have A/F sensor from the factory feeding the ECM your A/F readings. Furthermore if I wanted a tablet sized gauge mounted on my dash I would mount a tablet on my dash and utilize torque pro with it and get everything that that POS offers and more for the cost of $5 for the application and $15 for the bluetooth obd2 reader while being able to utilize the tablet for GPS nav, nudies of my woman, and whatever else I can do with a full fledge tablet.

[H8PVMNT]

http://replygif.net/i/1111.gif

OK now don't break out in monkey bites...

Gnarls, you do tend to stink up a thread with a ton of information but I have seen the value in it so it's not all bad.  Andrew, you do more wheeling, have a nicer truck and a better beard than most people but you can be a cranky bastage.  That being said keep telling it like it is.  300K, you are really doing it with that old crusty pickup of yours so the street cred is going to stack up, but you are just a pup so I guess you have to get hazed a little.  Mudder, get your 3RZ in man!

Here is what I think for EFI...  I would say with a 22re it would be tough to justify since you can't do much about it anyway.  Good for diagnosis though.  I guess something hand held would be more legitimate for stock EFI.  And as we know Gnarls is going to have to over analyze everything so he will be getting one, it's just a matter of time .  That's OK too because we can all learn from his extensive 22re bugger picking.  When he get's that thing running right he will have probably spent more than anyone alive on a 22re but if it happened to be lean you can be sure we will all know why. 

Here is what I know for carb...  With carb, the AF gauge is a bit more justifiable but not necessary based on my experience so far.  When I went through the jets on the weber you could lean out a particular circuit until you got detonation and then back off a step or two, read plugs, find your happy medium, compromise, best seat of the pants spot. You can totally feel and hear too lean when you get there.  You can smell rich and see it on the plugs really easy.  Somewhere between maximum economy leanest possible and super street racer rich is probably the best compromise for most of us carb suckers.

I got one to aid in my understanding of carb tuning because I wanted one to compare what I perceived using old school drive, feel, smell techniques vs. what the AF gauge tells me.  I also want to monitor what happens in real time when I change elevation and when we have extreme temp changes.  I am more interested in the changes in AF with factors other than jetting than where the gauge is.  I think it would be a mistake to chase the perfect AF readings rather than tune to the performance, economy and feel that you want.  Right now my secondary jetting seems a bit rich according to the gauge, but I suspect when I lean to happy 14.7 on the AF gauge it out I won't be happy with the performance.  We will see.

So far I have found the vac gauge more informative on what's going on with my tune and driving than the AF gauge and it was only like $39. Vac can tell you about your idle and main jetting as well as where your ignition timing should be.  This is most of your tune with a carb.

For forced induction beyond stock setups AF becomes important real fast so that's a no-brainer.  Doesn't matter what I think or know, it's fliipin' boost man!  You guys don't want one you need one.

300K that thingy you posted looks pretty cool and tells you a lot but for me, gauges and driving lights should be round  .  However, if you have the cabbage you should get one on something and review the crap out of it.

[H8PVMNT]

Have the lpg turbo 22r currently with a PLX brand afr from LCE that doesn't seem to work very well. It's been returned but still having issues with display and acknowledging the sensor.  Looking for a replacement that someone could recommend!   Autometer any good?  Innovate?  AEM? 
Thanks

Get anything out of this discussion so far?

[Gnarly4X]

No that is a blanket statement. There is no need for a AFR gauge if you are not utilizing force induction. Pretty well known fact. Don't bother with one of your long drawn out arguments. You aren't going to change my mind on that. Save it for one of the already numerous clogged threads you have going.

OH.. OH... you want to flame me and discredit me here.  OK.... but I don't think it will benefit anyone.

Besides.... you don't really know who you are engaging with here.

Regarding me changing your mind.. I wouldn't think of it.

Regarding whether or not an AFR gauge can be used on a naturally aspirated engine to any benefit... I'll gladly debate you all day long.

Gnarls.

[SqWADoosh]

OH.. OH... you want to flame me and discredit me here.  OK.... but I don't think it will benefit anyone.

Besides.... you don't really know who you are engaging with here.

Regarding me changing your mind.. I wouldn't think of it.

Regarding whether or not an AFR gauge can be used on an naturally aspirated engine to any benefit... I'll gladly debate you all day long.

Gnarls.

You've given us all a very good understanding of who you are. I don't care to feed the beast. I have better things to do then waste time with you. I'm aware you will gladly debate all day long. That is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. This forum has become unnecessarily cluttered with pomp since June of 2016.

[Mudder]

I'll get that 3rz in, currently I'm just having fun tuning a carb on an old Ford 460. Which is why I went with a handheld LM-2. It's not cheap at $250 or so but I enjoy the data logging because it allows me to look at it on a computer after driving.  But with a turbo it's be better to have one always on so you can watch the mixture. What kind of price range are you looking at OP?

[H8PVMNT]

A 460 is like 3 22r's

[Tw814! [OP]]

Ordered an Autometer 4378, matches rest of the gauges, but I'll have to rig up a way for WOT switch.  Should be an easy install.  I'll let all know how it works out.   Plx has some more ideas for me to try.. if it works that one can become the carb tuner lol.     My 2 cents on the argument- must have for turbo/SC/no2/high comp, handy as hell for carbs,  can be helpful on simple obd 22RE to dial in AFM and TPS or find out it has a bad knock sensor that keeps pulling timing and wrecking the show (no power, poor mpg)

[Gnarly4X]

Ordered an Autometer 4378...  can be helpful on simple obd 22RE to dial in AFM and TPS or find out it has a bad knock sensor that keeps pulling timing and wrecking the show (no power, poor mpg)

Tw814!....  you might want to check with squish, he's the resident expert on AFR gauges and their use!! 

Gnarls.

[zippo]

So I read all the way through this post and there is a lot of miss information about o2 sensors and gauges. Any modified engine can benefit from a afr gauge. Even stock engines it can make a wonderful diagnostic tool.

Almost every fuel injected engine already has atleast one o2 sensor,  narrow band which give off a 0 to 1v reading. The resolution is very poor on these sensors. Narrow band gauges would be almost usless.

Wide band o2 sensor output a 0 to5 v signal and have a far better resolution. Most wide band 02 gauges have a narrow band out, which allows simplistic integration in to a factory system. Use existing exhaust mount and a few wires.

To say it is only needed on boosted application is very short sited. What about high compression or large cam applications. Or any engine mod that could affect the afr, such as an aftermarket intake. How do you tune and verify things are running properly. Carberated vehicle can benefit  several ways. Extreme elevation change can change the afr. Which a gauge would tell you. Even the difference between summer and winter can make a big difference in high performance applications. I could list many more examples!

I would never knock anyone who installs a gauge to assist in knowing the health or tuning of their motor.

[:)bestgen4runner]

I have one on My little 22re. 
It is just a narrow band but is better than nothing.  It will tell me if I am running super lean or super rich. 
It is a great idea for any engine in any configuration.  Mark You should have one, FYI

Gnarly, have You looked at the LCE tuner, I have installed this little box on every 22re I have modified with great success.
It requires an a/f ration gauge of some kind. Not the expensive one.
I have always just tapped into the factory o2 sensor. In the case of a mildly modified 22re (cam, header, and what not) I have found that it allows me to correct the small lean or rich condition that the confused or dumb factory Ecu runs into with mods.

Lastly H8 is correct in everything he has stated above and so is Zippo. The rest of You have made incorrect statements 

[Gnarly4X]

....

Gnarly, have You looked at the LCE tuner, I have installed this little box on every 22re I have modified with great success.....

Wow.. I have seen it but quite awhile ago and I forget they had that!!!   

I will check this out and it looks like something I can use.  As I mentioned on my rebuild thread, at this point I'm not sure if this rebuild is running on the lean side, and BEFORE I get on the freeway everyday to finish the break-in I'd like to make sure the mixture is not going to cause any issues.  I've been around pro engine builders, race cars, and fantatic DIYers most of my life.  The guys I know who are serious about performance say that the AFR gauge is their favorite instrument for tuning AND diagnostics.   

I've done some researching and there are a couple options for checking out my AFR.   1 - I can go the the local emissions test station, or 2- I can spend $100 and have my truck dyno'd.  That will give all the information I need, but I just need to get the engine broke in before I get it dyno'd. 

I'm still considering an AF gauge, and I am looking forward to H8PVMNT's awesome reports on his testing when he get's into it!  I have just never played the an AFR gauge... it looks like fun to see what is really happening with AFR.   

I will talk to LCE and most likely order one of these!!!  ... Thank you very much for the hot tip!! 

http://www.lceperformance.com/Pro-A-F-Tuning-Module-Mixture-Meter-p/1065030.htm

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Your welcome
 

[Gnarly4X]

Gnarls, you do tend to stink up a thread with a ton of information but I have seen the value in it so it's not all bad. 

Wow... THAT is some awesome stink!! 

Sitting behind a keyboard you can be anybody you want. 

KEYBOARD COURAGE

noun - descriptive quality: 1: A quality or characteristic displayed by a person through the written word that this person would not ordinarily possess. 2: The confrontational attitude exhibited by someone via an anonymous entry to an internet web-page or posting. 3: An attitude demonstrated by someone when they realize that actions taken by them or words written by them across a computer connection will have little, if any, personal repercussions. 4: A false bravery possessed by an individual who does not possess the true quality in person.

With squash as the self-appointed “pomp” monitor and you as the “wanna-be” Mr. Phil, I’m definitely getting more bang (doosh) for my buck on this forum!!... THANK YOU.... I'm feeling a psychological transformation happening. 

I’m not a stingy person, so I will reduce my “stink” and let others who want to share their “stink” have more “stink space” and “thread stink”. 

Gnarls.... a big bad stinker. 

[emsvitil]

Tapping into the narrowband O2 signal with a digital voltmeter can tell you if you're lean or rich..............

[Gnarly4X]

Tapping into the narrowband O2 signal with a digital voltmeter can tell you if you're lean or rich..............

Yes, just not enough voltage range (resolution) to accurately determine “how” rich or lean, right? 

Gnarls… keeping it stink-lite.

[emsvitil]

Better than you'd think it would.

Also when working with a carb, you can experiment with the jets.     A jet with 10% less area should be 10% leaner.   

Did the voltage change correspond to 10% leaner..............  (same idea for richer)