Author Topic: The official mileage vs. compression thread  (Read 11632 times)

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emsvitil

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #60 on: Jul 31, 2017, 04:21:36 AM »
For awhile,  it's possible for compression readings to go up with age.................

(carbon buildup)


Part of the compression gauge variability is the Schrader valve.     I lost 25lbs when I replaced the valve until I found a low tension Schrader valve   (the specifically make them for compression testers)

Hook up your gauge to a known pressure (passing pressure thru the Schrader valve) and compare.........
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #61 on: Jul 31, 2017, 06:39:39 AM »
For awhile,  it's possible for compression readings to go up with age.................

(carbon buildup)


Part of the compression gauge variability is the Schrader valve.     I lost 25lbs when I replaced the valve until I found a low tension Schrader valve   (the specifically make them for compression testers)

Hook up your gauge to a known pressure (passing pressure thru the Schrader valve) and compare.........

emsvitil ... you raise some very interesting questions that can change the overall results of any attempt to calculate the drop in compression readings over time (mileage).

There are a number of other factors that can affect compression numbers and the correlation to mileage.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gillesdetrail

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #62 on: Jul 31, 2017, 07:33:52 PM »
I am intrigued by these differences between gauges. What order did you do the tests in?

Equus, no name, milton then equus again, because I felt we didn't crank enough to get maximum numbers the first time. I think all the gauges looked about the same quality, the milton being the oldest from 1977, equus being the most recent, probably less than 10 years old. I think the difference in numbers can come from how far the thread goes in the spark plug hole, they all tightened different amounts. I am sure I have a 4th gauge somewhere, if I find it I'll make sure I test it too and post the results. I was always told the number is not always the most important, it is more about the consistency of the numbers.

Gnarly4X

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #63 on: Aug 01, 2017, 04:34:34 AM »
Equus, no name, milton then equus again, because I felt we didn't crank enough to get maximum numbers the first time. I think all the gauges looked about the same quality, the milton being the oldest from 1977, equus being the most recent, probably less than 10 years old. I think the difference in numbers can come from how far the thread goes in the spark plug hole, they all tightened different amounts. I am sure I have a 4th gauge somewhere, if I find it I'll make sure I test it too and post the results. I was always told the number is not always the most important, it is more about the consistency of the numbers.

Hey Gillesdetrail,

Good points...

I don’t think the method of sealing the gauge tube to the spark plug hole is a critical design factor. If it were, then the gauges would require a more absolute seal into the threads.  The depth of the gauge threads into the spark plug hole is perhaps is a very insignificant factor. What is more of an actual different between gauge readings is the length of the tube or the number of cc’s of air space between the spark plug threads and the gauge. The Schrader valve could be a factor if the amount of air pressure required to open it is different between valves.

The accuracy and degree of calibration in the gauge itself is also a factor.

And yes, the measurement is primarily about identifying the difference in PSI between cylinders.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless. :gap:

Gnarls.... oh..oh.. too much pomp 'n stink...  :outtahere:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #64 on: Oct 10, 2017, 03:41:56 PM »
OK so here is what I have after about 46,000 on a nice 22r rebuild, blown head gasket at about 32K, slapped a kind of sloppy 20r head on it when I swapped the HG. This compression test was done warm, oil level topped off, 3,500 ft elevation and I adjusted numbers for elevation...

#1: 128
#2: 130
#3: 130
#4: 132

I have a bunch of oil puking out the PCV breather so I think my rings are shot. Numbers are even but pretty low for a 46K engine.  The 22r didn't burn a drop before the HG failure so I think that did it.
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MrFatEggs

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #65 on: Oct 10, 2017, 04:31:28 PM »
1987 Toyota 22R.
346k Miles

1 - 155
2 - 155
3 - 150
4 - 155

Gnarly4X

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #66 on: Oct 10, 2017, 06:14:22 PM »
1987 Toyota 22R.
346k Miles

1 - 155
2 - 155
3 - 150
4 - 155

What elevation did you record the compression test?  Engine cold?  Hot?  What was the ambient air temperature?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #67 on: Oct 10, 2017, 06:35:46 PM »
What elevation did you record the compression test?  Engine cold?  Hot?  What was the ambient air temperature?

Gnarls.



The elevation is roughly sea level. The engine was warmed up when I tested it. The temperature outside was about 55°F.

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #68 on: Oct 10, 2017, 06:42:02 PM »
1987 Toyota 22R.
346k Miles

1 - 155
2 - 155
3 - 150
4 - 155


Can I assume correctly that those are original miles?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #69 on: Oct 10, 2017, 07:34:14 PM »

Can I assume correctly that those are original miles?

Gnarls.

I believe so but it may have been rebuilt at some point.

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #70 on: Oct 14, 2017, 09:09:34 AM »
Here were the steps I was taught to do proper compression testing.  1. Disable fuel and ignition 2.Hook up battery charger charger 3. Remove all spark plugs 4. Wide open throttle 5. 6-7 compression revolutions  6. Double check any suspect cylinders. 7. Preferably do when cold as heat can mask issues due to expansion. 

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #71 on: Oct 16, 2017, 03:30:56 AM »
Here were the steps I was taught to do proper compression testing.  1. Disable fuel and ignition 2.Hook up battery charger charger 3. Remove all spark plugs 4. Wide open throttle 5. 6-7 compression revolutions  6. Double check any suspect cylinders. 7. Preferably do when cold as heat can mask issues due to expansion. 

Hey EASYRYDERDANGER,

Yes, those are basic steps.

For my 22s, a couple things I like to do if I really want an accurate look at the compression numbers:

First, I will check the valve lash and readjust if necessary.  Also, like to do a test with fresh oil and filter change.

When I do a cold test, like after my truck has been sitting overnight, before starting with the gauge, with spark plugs removed, fuse pulled if FI, I will spin the engine until I see the oil pressure stabilize.  If you don’t get the oil pressure up before starting the test, the last cylinder test reading may be slightly higher.

I also like to do a warm test.  Same thing, just do the test with engine at near normal operating temperature.  As you stated, due to expansion of metal.  Alloy heads and cast iron blocks expand at different rates, a warm test may reveal other issues affecting the compression readings.

Gnarls…. that’s my opinion – it may be worthless.  :gap:




« Last Edit: Oct 16, 2017, 04:17:45 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

cporche

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #72 on: Dec 06, 2017, 07:32:23 PM »
so i finally got around to pulling the first set of plugs to see how they are burning, and check compression. This motor was build roughly 8000 miles ago from a semi local engine builder for 1300 bucks including a "rv" cam. Motor seems to run well, no issues other then slight oil consumption.

averaging 19 mpg for my commuting which its La parking lots.
'75 above sea level
68 ambient temp
95 engine temp
all plugs removed
throttle open
5 compression strokes per test.

1-140
2-142
3-144
4-140

*disclaimer used a Hazard Fraught compression tester my snappy is missing everything but the gauge, haven't used it in years so got no idea how long that stuffs been gone =(

Gnarly4X

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #73 on: Dec 07, 2017, 01:52:17 AM »
so i finally got around to pulling the first set of plugs to see how they are burning, and check compression. This motor was build roughly 8000 miles ago from a semi local engine builder for 1300 bucks including a "rv" cam. Motor seems to run well, no issues other then slight oil consumption.

averaging 19 mpg for my commuting which its La parking lots.
'75 above sea level
68 ambient temp
95 engine temp
all plugs removed
throttle open
5 compression strokes per test.

1-140
2-142
3-144
4-140

*disclaimer used a Hazard Fraught compression tester my snappy is missing everything but the gauge, haven't used it in years so got no idea how long that stuffs been gone =(

Hey cporche,

What year and engine?
What oil weight are you running?
How much is it using?
Any smoke?
Do you know what parts were used to rebuild this engine?
What type of rings were installed - Moly or Chrome?
Do you know what the crosshatching spec was?
Who machined the block?
How much maching was done - bored?, decked?
Block year?
What engine break-in oil was used?
What was the break-in procedure?
Who's head? New or built?
Do you know what the cam profile is and who's cam?

Just first thoughts...

At 8,000 miles the rings should be seated.  Those numbers are low, and could explain oil consumption.

I assume your engine temp was 195F.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Dec 07, 2017, 08:29:00 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

cporche

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #74 on: Dec 21, 2017, 11:12:04 AM »
Hey cporche,

What year and engine? 1989 (10/88build) 22re
What oil weight are you running? 10/30
How much is it using? 1 qt/500-1000 miles (it does vary quite a bit)
Any smoke? none that i can see even on hot or cold start no smoke
Do you know what parts were used to rebuild this engine? honestly no idea, did not research this engine builder nearly enough
What type of rings were installed - Moly or Chrome? unsure
Do you know what the crosshatching spec was? negative
Who machined the block? in house machining at engine builder
How much maching was done - bored?, decked? unfortunately not sure
Block year? later 22re has the "laser" on the block but thats all i can tell
What engine break-in oil was used? i dont remeber exactly what brand i remeber searching for many hours to find a high zinc breakin oil tho.
What was the break-in procedure? was told 2k for 5 mins then varying throttle for 2000 miles
Who's head? New or built? "new"
Do you know what the cam profile is and who's cam? was told it was a 261 rv cam but i have no way to confirm, nor was i given a cam card.

Just first thoughts...

At 8,000 miles the rings should be seated.  Those numbers are low, and could explain oil consumption.

I assume your engine temp was 195F.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

I would say engine temp was 160* it sat for maybe 20-30 minutes from when i pulled up to when i was able to pull the plugs and test. had to play with the dogs and feed them for a few.

The newest update, i spoke with the engine builder and told him my results. I kinda baited him alittle and asked him what compression should be before i told him, i didnt want him to just reply with nah thats ok. so we chatted for a while and asked me several times if i was "over fueling". im not running very rich, no raw fuel smell, no rich codes, decent mileage, plugs also looked to be burning evenly and cleanly. so basically he was bummed said he will fix it, but i have to pull it back out and drive it down to him. unfortunately im kinda torn between letting him try to fix it, (tear down hone and new rings and such) or just rocking it until i can do it myself. At the time when the engine failed i was rushing to get the truck up and running again due to upcoming wheeling trips and wanted it broken in before i wheeled it. hindsight is always 20/20 right?

also i havnt checked compression since the wet compression test that the engine builder asked for which was 180 across all 4, however this week i have noticed alittle bit more pep in its step on the way to work. I have read online that atf can help rings seat if they havent, which is what i used for my wet compression test. i plan on doing another compression test after the holidays giving him the results and we will put a game plan together for when i will pull the engine if i decide to let him fix it.

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #75 on: Dec 21, 2017, 06:21:45 PM »
cporche,

Can you describe your break-in procedure?

ATF or any other "stuff" will NOT "break-in" an engine with 8,000 miles.

Assuming the correct machine work, cylinder bore, hone and rings, these engines should be fully broken-in in 50 to 100 miles with the right procedure.

If your builder is willing to tear down the engine, re-hone the cylinders and install new rings, I would highly recommend you consider that offer, depending on your time and any expenses.

If your compression readings are correct and it is burning an excessive amount of oil or has blow-by caused by improper break-in, unfortunately it will not get any better.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #76 on: Dec 21, 2017, 07:28:25 PM »
Borrow the engine builders compression gauge and see what you get.
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #77 on: Dec 22, 2017, 02:37:42 AM »
... i havnt checked compression since the wet compression test that the engine builder asked for which was 180 across all 4

The "wet" test with oil in the cylinders is usually for checking for valve leaks.  That test will obviously increase the compression numbers unless there is a bad valve, rings, or head gasket.  In order to get a valid comparison, the wet test is typically done after an accurate dry test.

Testing with another compression gauge will not make any difference if you are using excess oil, it may give different readings.  With a previous reading of 180 in all 4 cylinders, the valves appears to be fine.

What brand and type of rings were installed?

Did the engine builder explain how they honed the cylinders?

How much oil is the engine using in what mileage?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
« Last Edit: Dec 22, 2017, 02:45:58 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #78 on: Dec 22, 2017, 04:58:33 AM »
We had a Toyota forklift in the shop the other day. A little over 27,500 hours on it. Running a little rough so decided to take a compression reading. 1- 168 2-171 3- 171 4-170 ended up being the pickup in the distributor. But that was some surprising numbers with that many hours on it .
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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #79 on: Dec 22, 2017, 07:37:00 AM »
The "wet" test with oil in the cylinders is usually for checking for valve leaks.  That test will obviously increase the compression numbers unless there is a bad valve, rings, or head gasket.  In order to get a valid comparison, the wet test is typically done after an accurate dry test.

Testing with another compression gauge will not make any difference if you are using excess oil, it may give different readings.  With a previous reading of 180 in all 4 cylinders, the valves appears to be fine.

What brand and type of rings were installed?  wish i could tell you

Did the engine builder explain how they honed the cylinders? something i'll ask him when i give the long block back to him

How much oil is the engine using in what mileage?  :dunno: it doesnt use a set amount of oil i can go 1000 miles and sometimes only use 1 qt, sometimes it will use 2 qts. there is probably a correlation to run time but i dont really track that.

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
ive only used wet compression tests to diagnose piston rings, if a valve is bad it doesnt really matter how well the piston rings seal you still get low compression, a cylinder leak down test is idea for this situation. Normally i would have went straight to cylinder leak down after doing compression tests however that was the engine builder asked for.

I'll have to dig and find the paperwork he gave me when i got the motor, he spelled out the break-in procedure which i followed but i dont remember exactly what it was. but it was roughly 2000 rpm for several minutes then varying from 1-3000 for 30 minutes or so. no highway driving for 500 miles had to be varying engine rpm.

This is whats bugging me im usually really good about buy stuff finding all that stuff out but i kind of just found it and bought and went off of the reviews i found online.

Aside from the compression tester i assure you the dry test was done correctly, i plan over the weekend to perform cylinder leak down test.  what make me feel like the engine builder used cheap parts was the fact that most of the seals leaked and had to be replaced. the paper gaskets didnt fit right and both the front and rear seals pissed from start up. Threw a lcengineering front and rear seals in and a different gasket set and now doesnt leak at all.

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #80 on: Dec 23, 2017, 02:08:26 AM »
.....  what make me feel like the engine builder used cheap parts was the fact that most of the seals leaked and had to be replaced. the paper gaskets didnt fit right and both the front and rear seals pissed from start up. Threw a lcengineering front and rear seals in and a different gasket set and now doesnt leak at all.

Hey cporche,

It's always a bummer to read about a botched rebuild, unfortunately the forums are full of them.

A defective part can get into a rebuild.  NASCAR probably has THE most sophisticated equipment and best V-8 automotive engineers on the planet.  But, their $250,000 engines, built in a $20 Million shop, can and do fail.

However, failed valve seals, failed crank seals, and oil consumption at 1 or 2 quarts indicates, at least to me, your engine builder doesn't have clue what he's doing, or doesn't give a rats-a$$ about his reputation.  I'm actually surprised that he is willing to do a re-rebuild.  I'd be concern about his mechanic skills and what parts he selects. 

If I were you and have him rebuild it, I would want to know EVERYTHING his going to do and I would select all the new parts.

How many 22s has he rebuilt?

I realize it's been awhile, but if you could find out what parts were used and exactly what was done to the block,  it would be good to know.

I'm curious how this bad experience turns out for you.

Gnarls.




« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2018, 03:23:11 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #81 on: Dec 23, 2017, 11:05:58 PM »
i'll keep you updated, as it stand right now im going to pull the motor out the last weekend in January and hopefully get it down to him the same weekend. I dont want to say the name of the shop until everything is situated and see how its handled. Atleast this time i'll be going with a list of questions and hopefully get some decent answers. Like you said tho it sounds like he has questionable skills, so whats to say the next motor isn't worse? or maybe it will be better and i just got the luck of the draw and got a bad rebuild kit.

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #82 on: Jan 11, 2018, 03:35:23 AM »
... Atleast this time i'll be going with a list of questions and hopefully get some decent answers...

Hey cporche,

If and when you decide to pull your engine and have your shop rebuild it, I would have an agreement, preferably in writing, what he plans to do, what parts you and he agree to use, how much labor he estimates, and how much time before he has your engine ready to re-install in your truck.  I would want to know if there is any out of pocket cost to me.  Since you and he will need to determine what caused the engine to use so much oil, or what components, machining, or specs/tolerances were possibly not correct - a technical failure analysis would be very interesting to learn.

If it were me, until I figured out what happened, I would be congenial and accommodating in helping him with the rebuild, as long as he doesn't change his mind and tell you to go take a hike.

Please keep us updated on when you decide to pull your engine and what happens.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jan 20, 2018, 01:26:08 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #83 on: Jan 29, 2018, 12:00:54 PM »
Hey cporche,

If and when you decide to pull your engine and have your shop rebuild it, I would have an agreement, preferably in writing, what he plans to do, what parts you and he agree to use, how much labor he estimates, and how much time before he has your engine ready to re-install in your truck.  I would want to know if there is any out of pocket cost to me.  Since you and he will need to determine what caused the engine to use so much oil, or what components, machining, or specs/tolerances were possibly not correct - a technical failure analysis would be very interesting to learn.

If it were me, until I figured out what happened, I would be congenial and accommodating in helping him with the rebuild, as long as he doesn't change his mind and tell you to go take a hike.

Please keep us updated on when you decide to pull your engine and what happens.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Currently the motor is with the engine builder, under warranty hes covering all of the internal costs, i had to pull it myself. As it currently stands he is saying the gaps for the piston rings are correct within spec. He said they are NPR piston rings. He said he is still currently looking to see exactly why the engine has low compression,(to see if they just never seated properly and is also my oil consumption issue)

another interesting topic brought up was how noisy the valve train was (i realize the 22re are noisy some what, but it was excessively loud) he said it is the rv cam that he sold me however he claims it should be set to 6 and 9 thou for valve lash. I did not receive a cam card when i picked up the motor. he said he will have one for me when i pick it up this time. Has anyone installed an rv cam and can confirm the valve lash should be that tight? it seems really tight.

He also has asked me 3-4 times if its possible my truck is "over-fueling" his words not mine. I told him considering its efi, and i have no rich codes it shouldn't be an issue. He asked about fuel consumption and the best i ever got was 19.5 mph (stock with 5 spd) but i usually hover around 17-18 mph which seems pretty good as far as fuel consumption so hes agreeing that it is not that.

I spoke to him briefly about if we should use different rings or anything and he said he would like to dig a little more before condemning the rings entirely for the issue. He said he will call me back in a few hours and we can talk more about how we will proceed. Im halfway tempted to tell him once he confirms the rings to hone the block again and i'll order an LC Engieering rebuild kit. My concern would be if he actually installs them if we go this route but i want to see what he says when he calls me back.

Gnarly4X

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #84 on: Jan 29, 2018, 12:26:21 PM »
The 6-9 spec for valve lash is lighter than normal, sounds like an engnblder 261C? What did you have the valve lash set at?

Are the rings moly or chrome? Make sure the ring manufacturer specs the RA on the cylinder hone.

Have you checked your spark plugs for color?

Was a compression check done?

The gas mileage doesn't sound bad, considering.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jan 29, 2018, 06:13:25 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #85 on: Jan 29, 2018, 12:54:52 PM »
The 6-9 spec for valve lash is lighter than normal, sounds like an engnblder 261C? What did

Are the rings moly or chrome? Make sure the ring manufacturer specs the RA on the cylinder hone.

Have you checked your spark plugs for color? yes inspected the plugs a few months ago, that prompted the compression check, showed signs of engine oil burning (some deposits) however color indicated correct running mixture.

Was a compression check done? Yes, after plugs were removed they were 140,142,144,140 Wet compression was about 175-180 across all 4 (engine builder requested wet compression test even though i offered cylinder leak down test)

The gas mileage doesn't sound bad, considering. This was my reasoning for saying its not running too rich that its washing the cylinder walls down.

Gnarls.

answers in quote seemed easier to answer that way. i dont know if i still have the old plugs but if i can find them i'll snap a picture of them.

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #86 on: Jan 30, 2018, 03:14:26 AM »
...As it currently stands he is saying the gaps for the piston rings are correct within spec. He said they are NPR piston rings. He said he is still currently looking to see exactly why the engine has low compression,(to see if they just never seated properly and is also my oil consumption issue)


Hey cporche,

I'm just thinking out loud....

I would want to SEE the pistons with the rings on them!!  Can you go to the shop and see if there is a piston that still has a set of ring on the piston?  NPR rings *may* be the problem.  Find out EXACTLY what NPR part number of the ring set he installed.  Did he, himself, put the rings on the pistons or did have some helper?  The rings have to be placed on the pistons in the right orientation (top-bottom of the ring). 

Find out if he could have accidentally inverted the orientation of the 2nd compression ring.

Again, NPR will recommend very specific cylinder hone cross-hatch degrees and Rz or Ra surface roughness.  Can you find out exactly how he bored and honed the cylinders?  What grit did he use?  Did he do the machining or did he send the block to another machine shop?

I would ask him why he chose NPR rings over other manufacturers like Total Seal, Hastings, or Mahle.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jan 30, 2018, 10:04:54 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

cporche

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #87 on: Jan 31, 2018, 11:17:44 AM »
spoke with the engine builder last night. heres where we are currently at

1. Said he inspected the rings after his worker did. #4 cylinder was gapped at at over 40 thou. He said cylinder 4 was the worst of the motor, the remaining 3 cylinders were slightly better.

2. he said the block will require machining out to 30 over. so he will be providing me a different block machined to 20 over, like mine was (this was new info to me wasnt told this before)

3. Appearently at some time there was oil starvation at the rear most main cap. He could not confirm if it was due to low oil or "sludge from excessive blow by" he said it would require crank machining so he will just provide a new crank. (there was a very very brief back and forth about this, it went along the lines of Me: well i never ran it low and checked often due to me knowing oil consumption. Him: "its ok either way it could have been low on oil or sludge due to blow by, but it was consuming excessive oil, which was my fault." "normally i was charge for this but its my fault im covering all costs"

4. these are the rings he uses https://www.yotashop.com/piston-ring-set-toyota-22r-22re-22rte-engines-1985-1995/
he doesnt buy though yota shop but these are the same part numbers. (he said the machining is done offsite at another machine shop, he give the piston ring info that he wants to use and the hone is done according to the spec of the ring manufacture and then the engine builder get the size ring the machinist says it will need, he said he also double checks the measurements.

5. Motor will be ready mid next week, with another gasket kit all free of charge

6. i dont remeber if i stated this previously but we spoke about the cam again, i paid for an rv cam but was unsure if that was what i really got. he said he confirmed by measurement it is an rv cam, (im going to see if there are any identifiers on it that i can confirm when i get it back.) he said the cam card for this cam required 6 and 9 thou for valve lash. This seems tight to me but if he can provide the cam card, which he says he will i suspect this could have been my valve tick. it was super loud.



Like i said in a couple other posts i work on cars for a living but i don't deal with engine building much. i have swapped used motors but i mainly survived with transmission work and then electric vehicle work. all unrelated to internal engine work, so i don't know all what needs to be asked when it comes to it. Plus im still fighting to whole rational to when you sublet stuff they know what they are doing, this isnt the case when you dont use your usual venders. The only time i ever dealt with a rebuild engine, we sent to long block to a shop, they did everything and sent back a 12 page document on exact procedure for start up, break-in, and maintenance. After doing such the car was shipped and only came in for oil changes after that with no issues so i didn't have to ever really think about this stuff.

Gnarly4X

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Re: The official mileage vs. compression thread
« Reply #88 on: Jan 31, 2018, 06:32:01 PM »
Hi cporche,

spoke with the engine builder last night. heres where we are currently at

1. Said he inspected the rings after his worker did. #4 cylinder was gapped at at over 40 thou. He said cylinder 4 was the worst of the motor, the remaining 3 cylinders were slightly better.
This appears to be simply a lack of checking tolerances and specs – probable careless oversight?

2. he said the block will require machining out to 30 over. so he will be providing me a different block machined to 20 over, like mine was (this was new info to me wasnt told this before)
This is a nice offer.  I’d want to know if the block will be magnafluxed and sonic tested.  So, he is going to use the pistons and bearings?

3. Appearently at some time there was oil starvation at the rear most main cap. He could not confirm if it was due to low oil or "sludge from excessive blow by" he said it would require crank machining so he will just provide a new crank. (there was a very very brief back and forth about this, it went along the lines of Me: well i never ran it low and checked often due to me knowing oil consumption. Him: "its ok either way it could have been low on oil or sludge due to blow by, but it was consuming excessive oil, which was my fault." "normally i was charge for this but its my fault im covering all costs"
Again, he appears to be very honest and has more uncommon integrity.  The “starvation” evidence is tricky.  It would be odd for the number 4 main to be starved and not somewhere else. I’d suspect a mis-reading on the tolerances. If not that, then the block had a plugged oil galley somewhere… and that would be his fault.

4. these are the rings he uses https://www.yotashop.com/piston-ring-set-toyota-22r-22re-22rte-engines-1985-1995/
he doesnt buy though yota shop but these are the same part numbers. (he said the machining is done offsite at another machine shop, he give the piston ring info that he wants to use and the hone is done according to the spec of the ring manufacture and then the engine builder get the size ring the machinist says it will need, he said he also double checks the measurements. 
That part number is a Toyota part number, and notably a high quality set of Japanese rings.  BUT  here’s the rub… they are Chrome Coated!..very “hard” to seal.  In my very limited experience, that is why the rings did not seat properly… and would never seat enough to prevent excess oil consumption. I highly suspect 22RE Performance, LCE, and Tod at engnbldr will NOT recommend chrome piston rings for that rebuild… but I’ve been surprised a few times.

5. Motor will be ready mid next week, with another gasket kit all free of charge
That is quite a nice warranty in my experience.

6. i dont remeber if i stated this previously but we spoke about the cam again, i paid for an rv cam but was unsure if that was what i really got. he said he confirmed by measurement it is an rv cam, (im going to see if there are any identifiers on it that i can confirm when i get it back.) he said the cam card for this cam required 6 and 9 thou for valve lash. This seems tight to me but if he can provide the cam card, which he says he will i suspect this could have been my valve tick. it was super loud. 
The valve lash for the engnbldr 261C Crawler cam is the tightest valve lash spec I recall at .007" and 0.009”  And andykrow and I have had long discussions and posts on this cam.  I would like to know who’s camshaft is it and would love to see the cam specs.

Like i said in a couple other posts i work on cars for a living but i don't deal with engine building much. i have swapped used motors but i mainly survived with transmission work and then electric vehicle work. all unrelated to internal engine work, so i don't know all what needs to be asked when it comes to it. Plus im still fighting to whole rational to when you sublet stuff they know what they are doing, this isnt the case when you dont use your usual venders. The only time i ever dealt with a rebuild engine, we sent to long block to a shop, they did everything and sent back a 12 page document on exact procedure for start up, break-in, and maintenance. After doing such the car was shipped and only came in for oil changes after that with no issues so i didn't have to ever really think about this stuff.

Overall, I think you have made out well for the warranty and this guy rebuilding your engine.

I would NOT install NPR rings.  I  believe a quality set of moly rings, the right engine break-in will get you over 200K miles without an excessive oil consumption issue on a quality 22 rebuild… BUT, I am NOT an engine builder.

I would talk to the boys at Total Seal.


Thank you for sharing all this information, for me it is valuable and very interesting… albeit at your unfortunate expense.

Please keep us posted.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Feb 01, 2018, 02:33:31 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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