Author Topic: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.  (Read 37071 times)

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Toybrota

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #300 on: Apr 21, 2018, 08:53:50 AM »
I'm pretty anal about leaks too, I like to convince myself that they aren't a big deal. But at the end of the day, the peace of mind knowing it doesn't leak, is great.

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #301 on: Apr 23, 2018, 09:11:21 PM »
Hmmmmm.... I'm having trouble with "..not care about these... " ??  But... to each his own.

I am ANAL about leaks.. .I hate leaks!!

When a rear main engine seal starts leaking, usually the crankcase oil gets on the clutch disc and it will start slipping.  Most often the clutch disc will need to be replaced.

It's been my experience that proper and conscientious maintenance on these old trucks will get you many more miles and save on repair and replacement costs, as well as trail failures.  Over the years I've seen many times a vehicle on the trail stuck, broken, or dead simply because the owner does not care about good maintenance.

By the way, just a suggestion.... if you drop the tanny, you might want to consider replacing the input shaft seal and housing gasket.  If you decided to replace the input shaft seal, I highly recommend you buy the Toyota seal.  I used Permatex Thread Sealer on the bolts, and Ultra Grey on the gasket - per Permatex.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.  :gap:
Hey Gnarly, I went ahead and took your advice and ordered a input shaft seal too. From Toyota of course.

I have been thinking about purchasing a new clutch disk, as you said a failing rear main can destory an already fine working clutch.
I have no reason to believe that the clutch is bad, it engages just as good as the day I installed it 9 months ago.
If anything clutch related were to go bad, it would just be the disk itself. Would you recommend a place where I can buy just the disk? I don't need a whole Marlin clutch kit.

As far as the rear main, I have an OEM Toyota seal going on with a seal saver for LCE. I am also re-sealing the pan as well. It doesn't leak, but you can't really do a rear main properly without it.

I'm starting this weekend, since I've done it all before I should have it done in a day's work. Hopefully...

Aside from the rear, I'm doing the front oil seal as well. Again a Toyota seal. The front seal doesn't sit as far into the pump, therefore there isn't a need to use a seal saver.

Any advice on the clutch would be great. Thanks a bunch!

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #302 on: Apr 23, 2018, 09:55:25 PM »
Hey Gnarly, I went ahead and took your advice and ordered a input shaft seal too. From Toyota of course.

I have been thinking about purchasing a new clutch disk, as you said a failing rear main can destory an already fine working clutch.
I have no reason to believe that the clutch is bad, it engages just as good as the day I installed it 9 months ago.
If anything clutch related were to go bad, it would just be the disk itself. Would you recommend a place where I can buy just the disk? I don't need a whole Marlin clutch kit.

As far as the rear main, I have an OEM Toyota seal going on with a seal saver for LCE. I am also re-sealing the pan as well. It doesn't leak, but you can't really do a rear main properly without it.

I'm starting this weekend, since I've done it all before I should have it done in a day's work. Hopefully...

Aside from the rear, I'm doing the front oil seal as well. Again a Toyota seal. The front seal doesn't sit as far into the pump, therefore there isn't a need to use a seal saver.

Any advice on the clutch would be great. Thanks a bunch!

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Further investigations have shown that gear oil is leaking... Not engine oil.
Which is strange, as I remember it being engine oil before. Having tasted and smelled both I can tell them apart.
At least I'll have both seals on hand.
What prevents the new seal from leaking? Won't it just ride in the old groove?

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Gnarly4X

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #303 on: Apr 24, 2018, 04:27:56 AM »
Further investigations have shown that gear oil is leaking... Not engine oil.
Which is strange, as I remember it being engine oil before. Having tasted and smelled both I can tell them apart.
At least I'll have both seals on hand.
What prevents the new seal from leaking? Won't it just ride in the old groove?

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Funny, I thought the same thing.  I thought the rear crank main was leakingÖ turned out it was the input shaft seal.
My reasoning with replacing relatively inexpensive gaskets and seals while the tranny is dropped because I HATE TO DROP A TRANNY!!  If you are like 300K, you can drop a tranny or pull an engine in 30 seconds... or 30 minutes whichever comes first.  :gap:

And, of course, leaking gear oil or motor oil will usually ruin the clutch disc.

If your disc still has life, and it is not soaked with oil, like mine was, I would just wash it very quickly in warm water and mild dish soap, rinse it well Ė DO NOT BOIL IT Ė DO NOT SPRAY ANY SOLVENTS ON IT.  If you have compressed air, blow dry and then let it air dry. 

On the seals Ė if the crank is badly grooved, then a seal saver is an option.  If the seal housing on input shaft is badly grooved, then it probably should be replaced.  Iím not sure about a seal saver for that?  That seal rides on a very small area and needs to have a smooth surface.  REMEMBER TO INSERT THE SEAL INTO HOUSING *backwards*Ö with the open side towards the transmission (thank you redneck!!).  See my engine thread if you have not.  I say ďbackwardsĒ because in 50 years of messing around with cars and trucks, itís the first time I can remember where that type of seal goes in open side out.

When you remove the bottom bolts in the tranny seal housing they will leak gear oil unless you have completely drained it.  So, tilt the tranny back when removing the housing, scrape off the old gasket and clean every thing up really well, I used carb cleaner.  Use Thread Sealer on the bolts, and Ultra Grey or Black on the gasket.  On inserting the seal, since it goes in backwards, if it wants to go in hard, I use an old trick and put it in the freezer for 30 minutes, and warm the housing in hot water for a couple minutes before inserting it in the housing.  I lube the outer edges of the seal with a little silicon spray.

Depending upon the number of miles on the pressure plate, you can reuse it ala H8PVMNT style.

If you need a new clutch disc only, I bought and really like the quality of this one from Rock Auto.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=6084351&cc=1277401&jsn=376

Of course, Marlinís kit is a solid option.  I donít like the heavy duty pressure plate, but thatís just my experience.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless, but it is comprehensive.  :yesnod:

Good luck and keep us up to date.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2018, 04:58:11 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #304 on: Apr 24, 2018, 04:47:45 AM »
... What prevents the new seal from leaking? Won't it just ride in the old groove?


Good question.

The rubber in the seal will harden over time and heat cycles.  The little spring gets weak.  When the rubber cannot flex, it will allow hot oil - gear or motor - to leak.  The seal in my input shaft housing was petrified and literally crumbled when I removed it.

The "groove" area on my input housing was very slightly worn, a little less than .001", so I figured it was OK.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #305 on: Apr 24, 2018, 09:16:32 AM »
Good question.

The rubber in the seal will harden over time and heat cycles.  The little spring gets weak.  When the rubber cannot flex, it will allow hot oil - gear or motor - to leak.  The seal in my input shaft housing was petrified and literally crumbled when I removed it.

The "groove" area on my input housing was very slightly worn, a little less than .001", so I figured it was OK.

Gnarls.
Thank you for the recommendation on that clutch disc! I went ahead and ordered it promptly, with 2-day shipping. So I can still get it done this weekend.

As far as the input shaft seal, I doubt it is grooved. This trans has less than 120K miles on it.
It will be good peace of mind to get it finished though.

As far as the rear main, what are your thoughts on replacement for it? Marlin has always recommended that you DO NOT do it if it isn't bad. Let sleeping dogs lie.

I have all the parts on hand, since I initially thought it was bad. Of course, both seals could be bad....



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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #306 on: Apr 24, 2018, 04:28:08 PM »
After spending the entire afternoon replacing the front seal, it leaks. Still.

So now, I purchased a brand new one from LCE along with another seal. Great.

$150 and a few days later I'll be back in business. Hopefully.

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #307 on: Apr 24, 2018, 05:34:28 PM »
The leak is 100 times worse than before.

The thinner oil seal that Toyota provided is supposed to sit all the way down into the oil pump. I just pushed it in flush. The seal is either spinning, or sideways.

Likewise, I'm about 10 miles from home. This will be fun. But hey, I learned how not to install a seal. Plus I got free undercoating.

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Gnarly4X

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #308 on: Apr 25, 2018, 06:41:59 AM »
...  As far as the rear main, what are your thoughts on replacement for it? Marlin has always recommended that you DO NOT do it if it isn't bad. Let sleeping dogs lie. 

OK, so you replaced the front crank seal with a Toyota seal, and it leaks.  How deep is the groove worn into the pulley?  Obviously if there is that much of a leak after new seal is installed, something is wrong.  Have you inspected the seal to see if it was damaged during install or something else is causing the bad leak?  The Toyota thinner seal is supposed to be inserted to the very bottom of the oil pump housing.

I have never used a seal saver/sleeve, so I donít have any experience with one.  If my front pulley was worn so badly with a deep groove, Iíd buy a new pulley.  But.. if I were going to use a sleeve and new seal for cost-saving issues, Iíd buy a Fel-Pro sleeve and a Timken seal Ė two well-known and quality aftermarket manufacturers.

On the rear crank seal, Marlin has more knowledge about these engines in his little finger than I do in my entire body, so Iíd believe what he says.  However, Iíd like to know what his reasoning is.  For me, if I have never seen the crankshaft and if the seal has miles over 50K, and Iíve dropped the tranny, Iím replacing the seal.  Two reasons, one Ė I want to inspect the crankshaft where the seal is riding and two Ė I donít want to have to drop the tranny again if it starts leaking for whatever reason.  Yes, itís a pain in the butt to have to R&R the flywheel, especially if you donít have air impact tools, but I donít see why it would not be a prudent replacement - using a Toyota seal and gasket.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2018, 08:33:56 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #309 on: Apr 25, 2018, 07:07:25 AM »
Twice I have had horrible luck with seal savers, both on 22re.  I would recommend OEM or aftermarket seal you have pictured, and yes install flush with pump.  That groove looks a little deep, I would recommend a new harmonic balancer. They look like they are less than $100...

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #310 on: Apr 25, 2018, 07:22:06 AM »
I took a stock balancer and put it on the lathe. Turned it down, polished it and got a seal with the correct od and id to match.
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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #311 on: Apr 25, 2018, 08:38:31 AM »
I took a stock balancer and put it on the lathe. Turned it down, polished it and got a seal with the correct od and id to match.

Yeaaahhh... that's because yer jus s..p...e...c...i...a... l   :thumbsup:

Gnarls.  :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #312 on: Apr 25, 2018, 08:47:32 AM »
I'm cheap is another way to word it.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #313 on: Apr 25, 2018, 09:07:49 AM »
Update on that seal...

I replaced it with a standard thickness seal.
The one I got from Toyota was thinner so it doesn't ride in the same ridge, I was not paying attention and I didn't push it in to the bottom of the oil pump. Only flush. It leaked like crazy.

So, in about 30 minutes I replaced it with a standard seal. No leaks.

I also ordered a new balancer + seal from LCE, because it's only a matter of time before this seal in there starts leaking.


Now the bad! The top bolt threads on my oil pump is stripped, completely. Can't even get a bolt in there to stay really. I had this issue when I did my timing chain, I just pushed a bolt in there with sealer and it worked fine.

I did the same, and it looks fine for right now.
I don't really want to remove the cover, just to drill that hole out and tap it. Oh well.
At that rate, I should just finish this other motor and drop it in to avoid these stupid headaches.

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #314 on: Apr 26, 2018, 05:30:24 AM »
I'm cheap is another way to word it.

I prefer "frugal"..... and I've been in that mode since 2008.  :gap:

Gnarls.  :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #315 on: Apr 26, 2018, 11:27:58 AM »
Picked up the input shaft seal today. $9.67 after tax.
Transmission comes out tomorrow....

Anyone have experience driving these in? Should I rent a seal driver for a day?

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #316 on: Apr 26, 2018, 12:14:47 PM »
I just did this seal.
So did Gnarly4x.

Other than ensuring the proper placement of the seal, it's like many others.  I personally spent $25ish on the bearing and seal driver kit from Harbor Freight and couldn't be happier.  I have used it countless times and will keep doing so.  It has ten or so various sized drivers that swap out in seconds.

New gasket too right?

CB

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #317 on: Apr 26, 2018, 12:18:01 PM »
I just did this seal.
So did Gnarly4x.

Other than ensuring the proper placement of the seal, it's like many others.  I personally spent $25ish on the bearing and seal driver kit from Harbor Freight and couldn't be happier.  I have used it countless times and will keep doing so.  It has ten or so various sized drivers that swap out in seconds.

New gasket too right?

CB
Just got that same seal driver kit! I'm glad I got it.
Only $20

As far as the gasket, I'm just going to use ultra black silicone maker.

I'm also gonna put a small amount around the seal when I drive it in, for extra insurance.


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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #318 on: Apr 26, 2018, 01:42:48 PM »
As recommended by Gnarly, I bought a Rock Auto clutch disc. This will be going in tomorrow.


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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #319 on: Apr 27, 2018, 04:26:43 AM »
Just got that same seal driver kit! I'm glad I got it.
Only $20

As far as the gasket, I'm just going to use ultra black silicone maker.

I'm also gonna put a small amount around the seal when I drive it in, for extra insurance.


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Interesting...   on input shaft seal and housing gasket.

I did not have any problem inserting the seal into the housing.  I coated the outside of the seal with a little silicon spray, and pushed it in by hand and used a large socket to gently seat it at the bottom of the housing bore.

On the gasket... I HIGHLY recommend you consider using a gasket.  I had to order one at the same time I ordered the seal at my Toyota dealer.  Without a gasket the Ultra Black will squish out and most likely will not have enough film to prevent hot gear oil from blowing out. 

Also, I'd HIGHLY recommend using Permatex Thread Sealer on the bolts.  I had to soak the housing in lacquer thinner overnight to get the old gasket off the housing, which, along with the seal, was probably the original from factory.  I soaked the bolts cleaned them well with a wire brush.

I kept the tranny tilted back overnight to keep the gear oil from contacting the bolts, Thread Sealer, gasket and Ultra Grey, after installing the housing.

You remembered to insert the seal into the housing with the open side out, right?

Gnarls.



« Last Edit: Apr 27, 2018, 05:01:24 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #320 on: Apr 27, 2018, 05:28:37 PM »
You should grease the seal lip not silicone spray. Many seals of that style come equipped with grease out of the package. I personally use trans gel as it will turn to a liquid as it heats up.  :twocents:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #321 on: Apr 27, 2018, 05:30:14 PM »
Transmission has been pulled. I checked the rear main, it isn't leaking as from what I can see (look at the photos)

The transmission on the other hand, nasty! The bellhousing was covered in so much grease. All of which has been cleaned.
The transmission leaked due to the seal, it was so dry it was actually cracked. It was hard like plastic. Removed the old seal, installed the new with silicone spray. Lubed the seal lips with grease.

As far as the gasket goes for the bearing retainer, Toyota no longer makes it. I called up tons if shops asking if they had one for a Jeep AX5 transmission (same as this transmission basically
No one had one. So I put down a nice bead of "The right stuff" and sealed her shut. Cleaned the bolts, wire wheeled, degreased. And installed with thread sealant. Currently it's sitting level and checking for leaks.



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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #322 on: Apr 27, 2018, 05:46:20 PM »
The right stuff  :shake:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #323 on: Apr 27, 2018, 05:48:55 PM »
The right stuff  :shake:
I do not understand the big problem with it. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #324 on: Apr 27, 2018, 06:20:14 PM »
I use it 5 days a week at work. I have had ZERO failure with it in going on 10 years of using it.

I'll do a gnarls here. Just my opinion it may be useless.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #325 on: Apr 27, 2018, 11:33:41 PM »
It doesn't say TOYOTA on it and cost 15 dollars for a 3oz tube so he doesn't like it :rofl2:
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #326 on: Apr 28, 2018, 06:14:27 AM »
Over the years weíve read many highly debated threads on what solvent, sealer, and gaskets to use.  The ones I read 10 or 15 years ago are just like the ones I read today.

Everyone has different experiences.  And, most of the time there are multiple options that will work equally well.

I tend to go with the experts who actually make the stuff along with the guys who use it in their business - like Marlin.

I use silicone spray often on lots of things.  I use it to remove mastic residue from tape. I especially like to use it on rubber seals that need to be inserted into a housing.  My reasoning is simple, first itís very very slippery, so itís an excellent lubricant.  And itís very thin, so it doesnít take up any space like a grease does, itís water resistant, and it dries quickly, so for this seal, it allows it to stick well into the seal housing bore after seated, where using a grease or a light oil will remain and not provide as good a friction seal.

The Right Stuff would be an excellent choice for a form-in-place gasket material, if a replace the paper gasket was not available.  I am really curious what Permatex would recommend.

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/the-right-stuff-gasket-makers/permatex-the-right-stuff-gasket-maker/

One thing about what Toyota recommendsÖ. Most, if not all, most likely were used during manufacturing in the production environment, however a rebuild or replace scenario may require a different product for a number of reasons.

You probably canít go wrong with using Toyotaís recommended sealants, but in the case of many aftermarket alternatives, like The Right Stuff, itís OEM CERTIFIEDÖ. That means that it meets or beats the same exact specifications of the Toyota product.

Thatís just my opinion Ė it may be worthless Ė but it is comprehensive.  :blah:

Gnarls.   :gap:




« Last Edit: Apr 29, 2018, 01:21:31 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #327 on: Apr 28, 2018, 03:07:12 PM »
I seem to recall that parts that were designed to be sealed with just a sealant have a groove (like an o-ring depression) as a feature so that the sealant doesn't totally get pressed out when putting things together.............. (the opposite of parts that were designed with thick gaskets in mind)........

 :dunno:
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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #328 on: Apr 28, 2018, 05:24:28 PM »
I thought with RTV's you were supposed to apply a bead, snug the part down a little, wipe away excess, and after it cures you torque it to spec? prevents all of it squishing out
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: ToyBrota's 85 Xtracab Build up.
« Reply #329 on: Apr 28, 2018, 05:38:51 PM »
I've used the "Right Stuff" with no issues. Everything I have used it on hasn't leaked.

Transmission is in, everything is torqued. No leaks.

Bolt sealer was used on the bearing retainer bolts. Everything was cleaned, greased and installed properly.
The truck drives great, the new clutch feels awesome.



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