Topic: Suspension work

[94Runna]

92 4Runner.
Stock link suspension.

Are there any modifications I can do to get more flex?
besides taking off the sway bar

[T-Revv]

Unfortunately IFS is not designed for flex.  It is designed for comfort on the road.  However low-profile bump stops may help.  If you really wanted to you could do ball joint spacers, however i would not recommend this, they are not safe.  Be aware as well trying to get more flex out of your IFS system, if you droop too much you will tear CV boots.   You may want to look into some IFS lift kits.  More clearance= more room to flex. Really Straight Axle Swap is the way to go if your wheeling often. If your fond of IFS and against SAS you can look into some long arm kits possibly.

hope this helps

[94Runna [OP]]

Unfortunately IFS is not designed for flex.  It is designed for comfort on the road.  However low-profile bump stops may help.  If you really wanted to you could do ball joint spacers, however i would not recommend this, they are not safe.  Be aware as well trying to get more flex out of your IFS system, if you droop too much you will tear CV boots.   You may want to look into some IFS lift kits.  More clearance= more room to flex. Really Straight Axle Swap is the way to go if your wheeling often. If your fond of IFS and against SAS you can look into some long arm kits possibly.

hope this helps

Thank you for the info. I was mainly talking about the rear, I want to SAS eventually, but I would like to upgrade the rear to flex before I go building the front.

[OOPS]

Get rid of the junk links in the rear and go to leaf springs!!

[94Runna [OP]]

Get rid of the junk links in the rear and go to leaf springs!!

Link suspensions aren't junk, but STOCK link suspensions are.. Professionals run link setups.
So is there any way to upgrade the rear link suspension to gain more flex?
I am aware of the other routes I could go (leaf spring, 4-link, etc..). I just want to know if anyone has built up the rear suspension on these rigs.

[:)bestgen4runner]

Go with Chevy 63" s
Hard to be beat and super cheap

[OOPS]

Link suspensions aren't junk, but STOCK link suspensions are.. Professionals run link setups.
So is there any way to upgrade the rear link suspension to gain more flex?
I am aware of the other routes I could go (leaf spring, 4-link, etc..). I just want to know if anyone has built up the rear suspension on these rigs.

The stock rear suspension on runners is junk!! There is nothing good about it and to modify it is not worth your time and effort. The best thing you can do with it is to cut it all off and start new. I know all about custom link suspension and how good it is and how good it works if done right. There are good and bad examples of link kits out there you can buy or you can make your own. I suggested the leaf spring set-up because it is easy to do compared to links and a heck of a lot cheaper and a good starting point, especially for someone without a lot of fabrication  skills.

Here is a good example of links that work. A lot of time , effort and design work went in to this set-up and it works. I know because I have been in it doing 90-100 mph at the Hammers. Take some time and read over this thread on BB.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-tacoma/609488-my-new-trail-street-rig-build-97-4runner.html

I am not some person that just started working on mechanical things, I started when I was 8 years old and just turned 72 this year. In my life I have built bicycles, go-carts, street cars, drag cars, motorcycles and a lot of other stuff.

[94Runna [OP]]

The stock rear suspension on runners is junk!! There is nothing good about it and to modify it is not worth your time and effort. The best thing you can do with it is to cut it all off and start new. I know all about custom link suspension and how good it is and how good it works if done right. There are good and bad examples of link kits out there you can buy or you can make your own. I suggested the leaf spring set-up because it is easy to do compared to links and a heck of a lot cheaper and a good starting point, especially for someone without a lot of fabrication  skills.

Here is a good example of links that work. A lot of time , effort and design work went in to this set-up and it works. I know because I have been in it doing 90-100 mph at the Hammers. Take some time and read over this thread on BB.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-tacoma/609488-my-new-trail-street-rig-build-97-4runner.html

I am not some person that just started working on mechanical things, I started when I was 8 years old and just turned 72 this year. In my life I have built bicycles, go-carts, street cars, drag cars, motorcycles and a lot of other stuff.

That's a badass build man, I will keep this all in mind.
From what I have read, I will have an easier time replacing leafs than having new links built.  I will also have a hell of a lot more money in the end if I just do a leaf spring setup.

So on to the next question, I hear lots of people say to run chevy 63's, others say f150 leafs, but most people I meet tell me to just run Toyota leafs from All-pro. What leafs should I run? kinda leaning towards the f150 leafs cause I work in parts at a Ford dealership.

[Willard]

All pro is having a sale on there leaf springs right now. For the rear you cannot beat there leafs. They have a lot of flex and ride very smooth. Decide what size tire you want. I would not do the leaf swap in the rear until you get the sas done. Just my opinion tho


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[94Runna [OP]]

All pro is having a sale on there leaf springs right now. For the rear you cannot beat there leafs. They have a lot of flex and ride very smooth. Decide what size tire you want. I would not do the leaf swap in the rear until you get the sas done. Just my opinion tho


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Good to know I will have to check them out for sure.
What do you mean decide what tire size I want? just to decide on the height of the leaf springs?
Also why do you say to SAS it before I upgrade the rear?

[Willard]

Yes for height in future, if you do a leaf conversion in the rear it will give you like 3-4" of lift alone. So do the front first then the rear, that's what I did on my '90 at least


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[knucklebuster]

Unfortunately IFS is not designed for flex.  It is designed for comfort on the road.  However low-profile bump stops may help.  If you really wanted to you could do ball joint spacers, however i would not recommend this, they are not safe.  Be aware as well trying to get more flex out of your IFS system, if you droop too much you will tear CV boots.   You may want to look into some IFS lift kits.  More clearance= more room to flex. Really Straight Axle Swap is the way to go if your wheeling often. If your fond of IFS and against SAS you can look into some long arm kits possibly.

hope this helps

You have some good information but a lot of misinformation  as well. Ifs lift kits do nothing but drop the diff. 4" allowing for larger tires which gives ground clearance, the geometry is the same as stock.

Id like to hear why you feel bj spacers are unsafe.
 I ran bj spacers with sway away torsion bars on my daily driver for over 20k miles and havent killed a bus full of nuns holding orphaned babys yet. With a winch and stout plate bumper i got about 3" of lift and always got compliments on how well the truck handled. I drove highways, winding mountain roads and offroad with out any issues. The geometry is changed and i will say that tires wear uneven, but it is a decent option for a budget lift. I dont think rodger brown would sell them if they where unsafe http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/BallJointSpacer.shtml

If you are looking for a all around better ride with a bit of lift i would check out old man emu.

If you want more go fast try blazeland (cheap) or total chaos (not so cheap)

Ifs does ok in stock or near stock form but once you throw bigger tires on and beat on it things tend to wear out and it is about the same cost to replace everything as it is to do a solid axle swap.

[wolfashes]

This may not be the greatest idea, but try removing the shocks out of the rear and see how much more you could flex if you replaced them with longer ones? You may have to relocate the shock tabs, but it may be worth an inspection...
As for your IFS... I'd keep rocking that and save up for a SAS kit and a welder.

[94Runna [OP]]

This may not be the greatest idea, but try removing the shocks out of the rear and see how much more you could flex if you replaced them with longer ones? You may have to relocate the shock tabs, but it may be worth an inspection...
As for your IFS... I'd keep rocking that and save up for a SAS kit and a welder.

I have heard of people using the fj springs to lift their trucks or eliminate the ass-sag.. not sure if that would do the job but I could always try

[H8PVMNT]

We ran the Old Man Emu stuff on a '95 4runner my wife had.  It wasn't a flexy monster or anything but it rode excellent and wheeled way better than stock.  I also ran the BJ spacers on a truck for a couple years and had no problems whatsoever.  I made some new upper shock mounts for longer shocks, used low profile bump stops and ended up with a good 8" of travel.  Quite an improvement over stock.

Try to find or make an idler arm gusset.

[94Runna [OP]]

We ran the Old Man Emu stuff on a '95 4runner my wife had.  It wasn't a flexy monster or anything but it rode excellent and wheeled way better than stock.  I also ran the BJ spacers on a truck for a couple years and had no problems whatsoever.  I made some new upper shock mounts for longer shocks, used low profile bump stops and ended up with a good 8" of travel.  Quite an improvement over stock.

Try to find or make an idler arm gusset.

I will have to look into that gusset and the placement of it as well. I have either 2" (I think) BJ spacers on the front now, and the torsion bars are cranked like a pregnant dog.
I haven't done anything to the suspension since I have had it, everything done to it was by the last owner.
Gotta figure out how to get my tires to stop rubbing now, I have 35x12.5's and they rub when I'm at full lock. I cut the fender a good bit but it still rubs, maybe lowering the torsion bars a little will push the tires out some, and give me the little bit of clearance I need. Other than that, I will just havde to start cutting
 

[Snowtoy]

.........If you really wanted to you could do ball joint spacers, however i would not recommend this, they are not safe............

Not sure where you heard this, but I have been running a set on my '91 trail rig for over 10yrs now, w/o issue, other than the tearing if CV boots.  The only thing that ball-joint spacers can do is cause bump steer, but that can be resolved by an alignment shop or tech that can do more than set things to factory specs.

92 4Runner.
Stock link suspension.

Are there any modifications I can do to get more flex?
besides taking off the sway bar

For the rear, OOP's recommendation would be the best bet.

.............I have either 2" (I think) BJ spacers on the front now, and the torsion bars are cranked like a pregnant dog.

For the front you could buy/make your own sway bar disconnect, but if the torsion bars are cranked for lift, disconnecting the sway bar wont do anything,

I have heard of people using the fj springs to lift their trucks or eliminate the ass-sag.. not sure if that would do the job but I could always try

The sag can  be resolved with new different springs, spring spacers, or air bag helper springs which is the what a buddy is running in his 3rd gen Runner.

Gotta figure out how to get my tires to stop rubbing now, I have 35x12.5's and they rub when I'm at full lock. I cut the fender a good bit but it still rubs, maybe lowering the torsion bars a little will push the tires out some, and give me the little bit of clearance I need. Other than that, I will just havde to start cutting

Taking a hammer to the firewall will clearance the tires some at full steering lock, but likely not enough to prevent rubbing.  If it were me, I would install a 2" body lift, this will give you the clearance needed and will allow you to run the torsion bars at stock setting or lower, allowing the most flex out of the IFS, as well as steering clearance.
The 2" body lift will also allow you to raise the gas tank 2" increasing ground clearance and helping to reduce the "fuel capacity reducing dent" common to 4 Runners.

With the above mods and 2" removed from the fender on my '91, I have 1" or more at steering wheel lock, and about 3"of up travel in that position before the 35's(15x10 w/2" back spacing) will start to rub.

[94Runna [OP]]

Thanks for the feedback.
For the rear I picked up some chev 63's.
For the front, I haven't decided which route I want to go.

For the body lift, wouldn't I have to add some length to my steering column?

[OOPS]

For the body lift, wouldn't I have to add some length to my steering column?

Depends on how much BL you do, fan shroud will have to be moved down and you may need a longer soft clutch hose!!

[94Runna [OP]]

Depends on how much BL you do, fan shroud will have to be moved down and you may need a longer soft clutch hose!!

I don't think I have a fan shorud on mine, cant remember if I replaced it when I welded my new front end on.
As doe the clutch line, I'm doing an auto to 5sp swap. I'm getting a steel braided line made at around 6'.
Don't quoted me on that length though, Its just an estimate. 

[Snowtoy]

Depends on how much BL you do, fan shroud will have to be moved down and you may need a longer soft clutch hose!!

X2

With a 2" or less the only the only thing that needs to be extended is usually the filler neck, everything else can usually be unwound or there is enough slack in it to not need modifying.  If you split the difference between the two attachment points in the steering shaft, inside cab and engine bay, you shouldn't have an issue with a 2" BL.
 

You can also avoid having to lower components or extend/unwind lines by doing a drivetrain lift.

[T-Revv]

You have some good information but a lot of misinformation  as well. Ifs lift kits do nothing but drop the diff. 4" allowing for larger tires which gives ground clearance, the geometry is the same as stock.

Id like to hear why you feel bj spacers are unsafe.
 I ran bj spacers with sway away torsion bars on my daily driver for over 20k miles and havent killed a bus full of nuns holding orphaned babys yet. With a winch and stout plate bumper i got about 3" of lift and always got compliments on how well the truck handled. I drove highways, winding mountain roads and offroad with out any issues. The geometry is changed and i will say that tires wear uneven, but it is a decent option for a budget lift. I dont think rodger brown would sell them if they where unsafe http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/BallJointSpacer.shtml

Let me explain so there is no confusion or possible misinformation in your reading of it. Yes some IFS lift kits just drop the diff, others however do change the geometry (such as a long arm kit which i specifically mentioned). As far as BJ spacers, i'm glad you haven't killed anyone (thanks for taking it to the extreme), i could go extreme as well and say i could run a ratchet strap to hold my control arm and drive it for 500 miles and have no incident, that doesn't make it safe.  Putting something between the ball joint and control arm is adding a part in a high strain area that can break, and in a critical spot that would make you lose total control of the vehicle if it did break.  Plus they add lots of stress onto the ball joints them selves and can wear the ball joint out faster than most people realize.  Driving around with worn out and weakened ball joints also not safe.   And if you see his reply to my post he was looking for ideas for the rear.

[knucklebuster]

Well ok

Unfortunately IFS is not designed for flex.
so ultra 4 ifs cars are built for the road? Limit straps are for show?
 It is designed for comfort on the road.
  have you ever seen a h1? Or ridden in one? Ever done 60mph in a capable ifs rig in the sand or dirt?
However low-profile bump stops may help.  If you really wanted to you could do ball joint spacers, however i would not recommend this, they are not safe.  Be aware as well trying to get more flex out of your IFS system, if you droop too much you will tear CV boots.   You may want to look into some IFS lift kits. Ifs liftkits???
More clearance= more room to flex. 
 Really Straight Axle Swap is the way to go if your wheeling often. If your fond of IFS and against SAS you can look into some long arm kits possibly. ???long arm kits???sounds like two different terms to me I don't and most people who know better don't interchange words or terms like that I bet you a 10 dollars to the trail of your choice Google agrees with me

Let me explain so there is no confusion or possible misinformation in your reading of it. Yes some IFS lift kits just drop the diff, others however do change the geometry (such as a long arm kit which i specifically mentioned). see above 
As far as BJ spacers, i'm glad you haven't killed anyone (thanks for taking it to the extreme), i could go extreme as well and say i could run a ratchet strap to hold my control arm and drive it for 500 miles and have no incident, that doesn't make it safe. I gave a real world example with a bit of joking exaggeration, you are making  up and touting it as fact big difference... Sorry if I offended you Putting something between the ball joint and control arm is adding a part in a high strain area that can break, and in a critical spot that would make you lose total control of the vehicle if it did break.  huh? so modifying parts from the factory design is bad? from your replys I imagine you are too young to remember when folks flipped the ball on the j arm to make more "clearance = flex" or welded on the stock steering to make their own components.
here let me take you waaay back   http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=33240.0


good thing marlin never listened to people like you 
Plus they add lots of stress onto the ball joints them selves and can wear the ball joint out faster than most people realize.  Driving around with worn out and weakened ball joints also not safe.  I'll somewhat agree with you here, but I'd be more concerned with idler arms having actualy removed and replaced both. Larger tires (and all the places they take you) wear out components period  And if you see his reply to my post he was looking for ideas for the rear.
I havnt been around for a bit so I didn't see his reply, but A for effort in the weak closing argument category.

hope this helps

Op sorry for  ing up your thread but before I decided I wanted to keep the ifs and see how far I could go with it I read a ton of "just sas it, ifs sucks" threads whenever I tried to look up something. I guess it got to me

I am deleting my ifs due to an accident where a car pulled out directly in front of me not paying attention and looking in the other direction (I was doing 30).. bent the frame, the bj spacers held up fine, (her car was totaled) the cost to replace everything was about equal to an axle swap and I'd still have a weakened frame ( I had it straightened at a shop) so I decided to cut it all off and plate the frame. If it wasn't for that fateful day I'd still be rolling on the ifs..

It really comes down to what you want from your rig. Do you want 37"-42" tires? Maximum articulation?Do a swap.
Does the ifs work good enough? On a budget? Dont want a dedicated rock crawler?

 It gets to a point where replacing ifs parts (4 ball joints, idler arm, tres, cvs= $) makes a axle swap sound good.. 35s are about that point if you don't want to start buying high dollar parts in my opinion. I was happy with my ifs, it worked well for me and i had a long travel kit waiting to be installed.

I have a set of swayaway torsion bars that I'd sell ya cheap if you wanted em.

 

[T-Revv]

knucklebuster: your response sounds very sarcastic and angry. I was just giving the original poster my thoughts and ideas, if you have done different things that's cool. i hope they work for you. were all here to build good rigs and have fun on trail. 

[knucklebuster]

You are right Trevor, my response did sound sarcastic and angry.
I can only say that I was pretty heavily medicated on prednisone and benadryl due to a extremely bad case of poison oak (it went sestemic) and read your reply as a personal attack. I apologize, I'm usually not a negative person.