Author Topic: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R  (Read 8657 times)

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jmac80

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3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« on: Sep 12, 2016, 11:28:59 AM »
Hi folks-

.....just looking for some thoughts and potential direction.  I have an ongoing engine issue that I plan on dealing with either when it becomes a necessity or once my other higher priority projects have been addressed.  Anybody run into this problem:

I have engine vibration that starts at 3k RPM in the 20R.  My flywheel has some pretty bad "hot spots" or whatever you call it as I get pretty bad clutch chatter when trying to back up a hill.  I've heard flywheel would cause issues at lower RPMs but wanted to put this out there.

Vibration is present in and out of gear with transmission engaged and not.......this is how we know it's in the motor.  Also, mounts look OK.

Any ideas?  I've put about 40k miles on truck over the last year and issue persists but has not gotten any worse, so it's apparently not a catastrophic issue, although I generally try to keep it below the 3k mark.
1980 long bed; 20R; L52; 3" OME; 30-spline Marfields; Marlin high steer; PS; AC

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #1 on: Sep 12, 2016, 11:58:34 AM »
Exhaust heat shield maybe?
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jmac80 [OP]

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #2 on: Sep 12, 2016, 04:05:31 PM »
Exhaust heat shield maybe?

What?  This is a joke, right?  H8PVMNT, I know you know better than that....not a rattling noise.....the whole truck vibrates at 3k with the vibrating originating from the engine. 

Maybe the wife left something in the glove box that belongs in the bedside table. :bud:
1980 long bed; 20R; L52; 3" OME; 30-spline Marfields; Marlin high steer; PS; AC

Mudder

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #3 on: Sep 12, 2016, 04:51:37 PM »
You say you know you have problems with the clutch so why not fix that before spending money trying to chase a problem?

jmac80 [OP]

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #4 on: Sep 12, 2016, 05:05:10 PM »
You say you know you have problems with the clutch so why not fix that before spending money trying to chase a problem?

Ehhhh, I'm lazy and live in an apartment without a garage so pulling the transmission in the street is not really feasible for me, unless i'm 100% sure that's the problem.  And with my ignorance, if I pulled the transmission, I would replace clutch, flywheel, throwout, and pilot.  I'm thinking the odds of spending a lot of money, time, and being right back in the same place are high, with that approach.  Also, I've got higher priority things to do to it if I want to just buy some parts (for the clutch anyways, would totally do clutch if I knew it was culprit for vibration).  .....but Mudder, I do appreciate your input.....I've been watching your engine thread, hopefully, you got it now!

What's everyone's experience with off balanced flywheels?  Is this even related to clutch chatter?  I've been told it would vibrate before 3k if that was the problem.
1980 long bed; 20R; L52; 3" OME; 30-spline Marfields; Marlin high steer; PS; AC

Mudder

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #5 on: Sep 12, 2016, 05:32:31 PM »
Have you had someone bring it up to 3k rpm's while you watched the engine? I know thisay be a long shot, but have you also looked at the transmission mount?

Gnarly4X

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #6 on: Sep 13, 2016, 05:30:23 AM »
Have you had someone bring it up to 3k rpm's while you watched the engine? I know thisay be a long shot, but have you also looked at the transmission mount?

Hey jmac80,

So you’re “lazy”, and you want us to solve your vibration problem.  :thumbs:

Mudder's suggestion will help to find or eliminate possible sources.  Checking the motor mounts is easy.  With the brake on, have someone carefully and very slightly engage the clutch while you look at the engine to see if if shifts and torques at the frame rail mounts.

What have you done to attempt to  isolate the source of the vibrations?  :inthedark:

The steps to isolate the source should be fairly easy.  If you are driving down the freeway at 3,000 RPM (your vibration) and you put the tranny in neutral, disengage the clutch, let the engine drop to idle, does the vibration disappear?  If yes, then the vibration is most likely not in the chassis (tires, wheels, drive shafts, differentials).

It’s not common for a flywheel to be out of balance, but it is a common practice when balancing an engine to balance check and more accurately balance the flywheel with the pressure plate.

The flywheel can become loose from the end of the crankshaft.  This would cause a vibration and would cause a clutch chatter issue.  Hot spots on a flywheel can also cause clutch chatter.

If the engine is in proper tune and no issues with a drop in compression between the 4 cylinders, then you may be able to eliminate a combustion or misfire issue.

Have you done compression check or pulled the spark plugs to see how they are firing?

Does the vibration only appear at 3,000 RPM?  Is there vibration at your clutch peddle with the peddle pressed to disengage the clutch, or with the peddle released?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2016, 05:42:54 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

H8PVMNT

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #7 on: Sep 13, 2016, 07:31:03 AM »
What?  This is a joke, right?  H8PVMNT, I know you know better than that....not a rattling noise.....the whole truck vibrates at 3k with the vibrating originating from the engine. 

Maybe the wife left something in the glove box that belongs in the bedside table. :bud:

Well I am running a heat shield on my 22r right now and when it gets loose it is pretty flippin' loud. 

I'm sure it's probably something bigger, I would say drivetrain related, but often times these things are something on the stupid simple end if your truck runs good otherwise.  Just don't rule out the simple stuff.  Exhaust flange hitting somewhere comes to mind too.  Motor mounts etc.  Some portion of the trans rubbing on the trans tunnel...
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"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

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jmac80 [OP]

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #8 on: Sep 13, 2016, 09:36:36 AM »
So you’re “lazy”, and you want us to solve your vibration problem.  :thumbs:

You got it!  Once we figure it out, I'll let you fix it too.  No way man, thanks for the suggestions.

Well I am running a heat shield on my 22r right now and when it gets loose it is pretty flippin' loud. 

I've been there with some 3rd gens....those things are loud and often tear up when trying to snag a new one at the yard.  All that thin metal and fiberglass fall apart over the years and there goes to the bolt holes.   


OK, I looked back at my post...rookie mistake of poor explanation.  So, when I talk about being in and out of gear, etc.  The vibration occurs when stationary and moving.  I'll double check mounts again ....I've only looked by myself using a crowbar to move the engine around and not watch the mounts during the vibration (or the clutch engagement trick, which is better because I don't like reving it up that high when not in gear). 

Also, can someone comment on symptoms of busted transmission mount?  I have only experienced broken motor mounts (1 of which was in an 81 pick-up).  I would not think a transmission mount would allow vibration when not in gear/pulling.  Or am I completely wrong?

Tuning....not 100% but it's not too bad.  The carb on the 20R is pretty finicky; it's running a little rich but nothing outrageous.  It passed smog not long ago, for whatever that's worth....apparently $80.  I haven't looked at plugs/firing recently, but they were fine 6-8 months back and vibration was present then as well.  Also, the carb does need rebuilding as the water/choke thing is completely non functional and part of the idle return system is broken (there are two springs on these carbs, one is weird and useless looking but is necessary for throttle to return to idle smoothly (I think, been broke as long as I've had it).  You can't replace this spring without completely pulling the carb out and taking apart (bad design).  I have not checked the timing.....I do have a gun, so I should do this. 

Compression is good, checked that a while back (again vibration was present then as well).

Haven't noticed vibration being overly isolated to clutch pedal, but will pay attention at lunch.

My folks are visiting the rest of week and weekend, so I may not have a mount update until next week but will report back then.  Any other ideas in the meantime are always appreciated.  Thanks guys
1980 long bed; 20R; L52; 3" OME; 30-spline Marfields; Marlin high steer; PS; AC

redneckcustoms13

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #9 on: Sep 13, 2016, 10:49:29 AM »
Sounds stupid, but bear with me here. Remove all 3 belts (or 2 if you don't have power steering) fire it up a take it to 3k rpm. See if the vibration is gone. OBVIOUSLY YOU ONLY WANT TO DO THIS FOR ABOUT 10 SECONDS THEN SHUT THE ENGINE DOWN. I've had a fan clutch take a dump on a 22r that caused a vibration. Also a smog pump, water pump, or alternator with a failing bearings could do this but I would imagine you would see other symptoms if that were the case.
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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #10 on: Sep 13, 2016, 04:43:03 PM »
...not a rattling noise.....the whole truck vibrates at 3k with the vibrating originating from the engine. 


Is the vibration a rumbling type or is it more like a buzz?  Does it get louder or more intense as you go up to 3K RPM?

What are the angles on your driveshafts?  Are the driveshafts in phase? Any slack in the U-joints?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

H8PVMNT

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #11 on: Sep 14, 2016, 07:19:57 AM »
I agree with taking off the belts.  It will help you rule out a lot. I had a bad, noisy water pump, which I switched out last night, only to notice the power steering idler pulley bearing making an awful whirring noise.  Chinese bearing :(.  Switched it out for a good stock one.  Point is, it's amazing what becomes apparent when you rule out other things.
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jmac80 [OP]

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #12 on: Sep 14, 2016, 10:05:27 PM »
Just checked this....haven't messed with it yet.

As for the drive shaft.....vibration occurs with truck not moving and when moving. Drive shaft is speed related, not rpms.

Can a pulley really make the whole engine vibrate? I've always diagnosed pulley bearing with stick/pole method. Put one end on the part by the pulley and the other on your head by your ear. You'll know if it's f-ed up.

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1980 long bed; 20R; L52; 3" OME; 30-spline Marfields; Marlin high steer; PS; AC

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #13 on: Sep 15, 2016, 03:25:58 AM »
Just checked this....haven't messed with it yet.

As for the drive shaft.....vibration occurs with truck not moving and when moving. Drive shaft is speed related, not rpms.

Can a pulley really make the whole engine vibrate? I've always diagnosed pulley bearing with stick/pole method. Put one end on the part by the pulley and the other on your head by your ear. You'll know if it's f-ed up.

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Hey jmac80,

Why didn’t you tell us the vibration is there when the truck is not moving?... we could have eliminated some mental-masterbating!

I think I understand RPMs and speed.  How can you have speed without engine RPMs unless you are coasting, being towed, the truck is riding on a trailer, or Scotty has locked on to it and it’s being beamed up to the transporter room!!

You stated and asked about clutch chatter and backing up a hill, isn’t that “moving”, and in gear and out of gear.. I would think that would be “moving”?

I’ll let one of the experts here help you figure it out.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Mudder

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #14 on: Sep 15, 2016, 06:31:09 AM »
Gnarly4x, he did tell us. The second paragraph of his first post he said it was there in and out of gear. I agree with pulling the belts. But I have a feeling it's the flywheel. If it was something internal of the engine you'd know it by now.

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #15 on: Sep 15, 2016, 07:12:48 AM »
Gnarly4x, he did tell us. The second paragraph of his first post he said it was there in and out of gear. I agree with pulling the belts. But I have a feeling it's the flywheel. If it was something internal of the engine you'd know it by now.

Hey Mudder,

My mind works somewhat differently.

NO.  His statement does NOT clarify whether the truck was moving or not moving at 3,000 RPM.

“Vibration is present in and out of gear with transmission engaged and not.......this is how we know it's in the motor.  Also, mounts look OK.“

Can the truck be moving while the transmission is disengaged and the engine revving at 3,000 RPMs?

Can the truck be NOT moving while the transmission is engaged and the engine revving at 3,000 RPMs?

I know what I would look for in my truck, but I'll let you guys figure it out.  :beerchug:

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Sep 15, 2016, 07:19:28 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

jmac80 [OP]

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #16 on: Sep 15, 2016, 07:57:34 AM »
Post 9 clearly states I made a mistake about the description and clarified, but regardless....y'all boys chill out on the details and I'll report back next week when I get a chance to check it out.

I'm leaning towards flywheel but people keep telling me it would occur at lower rpm. But I hate to pull the transmission for nothing, I can live with clutch chatter. Like you said if it was internal it would have progressed over the past 40k miles....also it doesn't burn any oil, for what that tells us. I seriously doubt pulley but will check those and mounts first.....start easy right?

Thanks again guys and hang tight for update

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1980 long bed; 20R; L52; 3" OME; 30-spline Marfields; Marlin high steer; PS; AC

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #17 on: Sep 15, 2016, 08:46:25 AM »
I think maybe your pistons are different sizes causing your crank to become stress fractured, a condition known as crankosis.  Try driving the truck on it's side for a while, then hit the rear end with a hammer 3 times and spit on the valve cover while clicking your heels together.

If this doesn't work you should sell it cheap :)

Let us know if you find he cause I am horribly curious.
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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #18 on: Sep 15, 2016, 10:18:56 AM »
Ok, Mudder, I went back and re-read his posts, and YES, he did say:

“So, when I talk about being in and out of gear, etc.  The vibration occurs when stationary and moving.”

 :bowdown: I missed that statement completely. :hammerhead:

So..that should eliminate chassis, driveshaft, diffs, wheels & tires.  :thumbs:

Did the vibration start suddenly or gradually?  How many miles has it been there? :inthedark:

I would look at the flywheel, clutch disc, and pressure plate.  How many miles on the clutch, pressure plate, pilot bearing, and throw-out bearing?

It could be the pilot bearing has disintegrated, allowing the tip of the tranny input shaft to move perpendicular to the crankshaft. :dunno:

Gnarls. :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

jmac80 [OP]

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #19 on: Sep 23, 2016, 09:34:33 AM »
Just dropping by for update, definitely not motor mounts.  Checked from below with wife easing off the clutch w/ P-brake on.....that was her opportunity to take me out. 

As for the belts, I did not take them off.  The PS belt (first one to come off) is not the proper belt.  The tensioner/adjuster (is it still called tensioner when there is no spring?)  is completely relieved/loosened and belt is pretty tight on the pulleys.  I considered prying/turning it off pulley, but didn't want to break it out on the street w/out replacement on hand as it wasn't in bad looking shape but is far from new looking.....probably should go buy two right ones and cut the wrong on there off.  I considered removing brackets to get them off but my laziness got the best of me.  I did however try to stick on component/pulley brackets method and listen to all components.....nothing seemed out of ordinary.  Then I got distracted and noticed the clutch reservoir was has empty and figured the slave cylinder was going as I recently (6 months back) replaced master cylinder, and I know most people say do both at once or the slave will quickly fail afterwords.  It was fine though so then I was wondering where my fluid was going.....I ended up chalking it up to poor seal on reservoir cap as after close inspection of lines, connections, and component pistons.  I quit after this.

If I get some belts I'll try to create vibration with belts off and report back.  I also plan to rebuild carb sometime in the near future....as it does run a little rich, I noticed a little hesitation also recently when taking off from start in the mornings, and the water temp choke thing is completely FUBARed.  Once carb is rebuilt I'll check timing too.

Sorry to be rude Gnarls, regarding questions:

Did the vibration start suddenly or gradually?  How many miles has it been there? :inthedark:

I would look at the flywheel, clutch disc, and pressure plate.  How many miles on the clutch, pressure plate, pilot bearing, and throw-out bearing?

It could be the pilot bearing has disintegrated, allowing the tip of the tranny input shaft to move perpendicular to the crankshaft. :dunno:

Onset of vibration:  I can't comment on sudden or gradual.  The truck has done it the past 40k miles which is the entire time I've owned it.  It has not progressed though.

Mileage: at least 40k

Clutch and transmission/engine mating area: You know I keep thinking it's something in there too.....  I don't know when the clutch was replaced, but I can tell whoever owned at one point in time cut corners here and there.  The L52 was put in at somepoint along the way as I believe stock was L45.  I wouldn't be surprised if whoever did not did not put in new pilot, throwout, and clutch.  I really don't want to pull the transmission unless I know something is wrong in there.  A little bit of chatter when it's cold or backing up a hill is not enough encouragement for me to dive in there.

Anymore simple/easy check ideas?  Have a good weekend everyone
1980 long bed; 20R; L52; 3" OME; 30-spline Marfields; Marlin high steer; PS; AC

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #20 on: Sep 23, 2016, 09:52:35 AM »
I remembered something from a few years ago...

I swapped an L52 into my 1980 that had the L45.  The 4 speed is side shift, so it took quite a bit of massaging of the trans tunnel and I had to re-do the shifter hole or the L52 shifter would rub and vibrate like crazy on one side of the hole.  Trans will still hit the underside of the trans tunnel a bit in the right torque over condition because the top of the trans is a bit taller than the 4 speed.

This is a longshot but could the top of your trans be rubbing on the bottom of the trans tunnel or the shifter rubbing a bit?
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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #21 on: Sep 23, 2016, 11:56:10 AM »
I really like mystery movies, but not so much vehicle mysteries, like vibrations, squeaks, and rattles.

So, if we go another 40,000 miles before we figure out the mystery vibration, I may be in an ol' folks home by then!  :yikes:

Gnarls. :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #22 on: Sep 23, 2016, 12:11:54 PM »
Then again there may be a bunch of cracks in your flywheel, which may grenade and pepper your nether regions with shrapnel when you are pegging it out accelerating down the on ramp.  ;)
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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #23 on: Sep 23, 2016, 01:28:03 PM »
Flywheel, pressure plate, or clutch disc caused vibrations *usually* will be noticed at all RPMs.

Could this 3K vibration be a mis-fire?  Or... plugged fuel filter?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #24 on: Sep 23, 2016, 02:40:27 PM »
You might have a Hoary Marmot suck in your intake.  You laugh, but my in-laws had this problem in a chevy once...



“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
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"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #25 on: Sep 23, 2016, 03:25:23 PM »
 :eye: :eye:
I am considering joining the guessing game. 
Do You boys want  :help: ?
Gnarly and I have worked together before and Had success.
Hi Gnarly  :smooch:

 :roflsign:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
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Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #26 on: Sep 23, 2016, 05:03:25 PM »
:eye: :eye:
I am considering joining the guessing game. 
Do You boys want  :help: ?
Gnarly and I have worked together before and Had success.
Hi Gnarly  :smooch:

 :roflsign:

Hey =:)bestgen4runner,

Well... we may need some divine intervention!  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #27 on: Sep 24, 2016, 12:30:02 PM »
jmac80,

So the vibration was there when you bought the vehicle.

It's been there for about 40K miles.

You've tried to figure out the source of the vibration.

We are trying to figure out the source.

Since you don't want to pull the tranny unless you are sure that the vibration will be found after you pull the tranny.

I'm just throwing darts at the dart board, trying to hit the bullseye?  :dunno:

Could it be the harmoric balancer?

Gnarls. :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

jmac80 [OP]

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #28 on: Sep 26, 2016, 09:17:01 AM »

Could it be the harmoric balancer?


Good point to keep in mind Gnarls, hadn't even really considered that as I've never had issues with them before.

Unfortunately, I've been playing tour guide lately.  My folks were in town for 5 days and now my brother in law has arrived and is staying for 3 weeks......I'm not going to comment on this. :shocking:

Once I clean/rebuild carb and am 100% sure timing is right, I'll post back.  Thanks again for everyone's input.

You might have a Hoary Marmot suck in your intake.  You laugh, but my in-laws had this problem in a chevy once...





Oh yeah, checked this too. There was a marmot in there but he was stock, so I think he's cool.
 
1980 long bed; 20R; L52; 3" OME; 30-spline Marfields; Marlin high steer; PS; AC

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Re: 3K RPM engine vibration - 20R
« Reply #29 on: Feb 11, 2018, 06:36:21 AM »
Did the mystery vibration get resolved?  ???

Gnarls.  :dunno:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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