Topic: Rebuilt 22RE

[Chucks79]

I just got a rebuilt 22RE from 22RE Performance installed in my 1989 Toyota Pickup. I am really happy with the motor so far. The guys at 22RE Performance do a great build. I am having fun breaking it in. Kinda bummed out though, because I went to get the California smog done and it did not pass. Everything was higher except for the HC went down a little. I am thinking that my cat is not operating properly. I had a lot of oil burn on the old engine, and a cylinder that was misfiring. I bought the cat in 2011. It is aftermarket, and I think it is gone. Plus the truck sat for about a year, and a half.

Anyone have experience with this? Will a new cat solve my smog hurdle? I replaced the cat in 2011, and the O2 sensor. The truck passed with good numbers after that.

Here are the results:

HC: 15 MPH=179 max allowable is 95
      25 MPH=133 max allowable is 81

CO: 2.60 max allowable 0.61
       3.08 max allowable 0.76

No RPM= 919 max allowable 740
              1902 max allowable 642

After it passes smog then maybe the money put into the new motor will be justified. My pocket book hurts.

[Gnarly4X]

How many miles on the break-in?

Did you drain the gas tank after the truck sat for 1.5 years BEFORE firing your new engine and use fresh gasoline?

Gnarls.

[Chucks79 [OP]]

Only about 89 miles on the break in. I read somewhere that before the rings are seated emissions could be higher. I had a shop put in the engine, I added fresh gas to the tank before I dropped it off at the shop. It didn't sit for the whole 1.5 I would run it periodically. Probably would have been a good idea to drain the tank, but that didn't happen. The truck was run several times after the tank was filled with the fresh gas. So it was mixed with the older gas.

[Gnarly4X]

Only about 89 miles on the break in. I read somewhere that before the rings are seated emissions could be higher. I had a shop put in the engine, I added fresh gas to the tank before I dropped it off at the shop. It didn't sit for the whole 1.5 I would run it periodically. Probably would have been a good idea to drain the tank, but that didn't happen. The truck was run several times after the tank was filled with the fresh gas. So it was mixed with the older gas.

There are a good number of differing opinions and procedures for breaking in these engines.  It's my opinion that 89 miles (that is maybe 2 hours of run time) is not enough time to completely break in these engines.  It's likely that a fresh engine rebuild without at least a 1,000 miles on it may not pass emissions, depending on what state is testing.

Gas can go bad in 3 to 6 months, and ethanol-based fuel is more likely to collect moisture.  After one fresh tank the old gas should be gone.

What is the break-in procedure that 22RE Performance suggested?

Has the engine been re-checked, especially the sensors, and tuned?

Gnarls.

[Chucks79 [OP]]

They recommend running Joe Gibbs Driven BR 30 oil for the first 400 mi, which I am doing. After 400 mi change out that oil and just run conventional 10 W 30 oil. Never anything synthetic. Don't baby the engine but don't go to hard on it. They actually recommend getting it checked for emissions right away to tell if something is out of the ordinary, like a sensor that went bad, or the cat. Setting the timing is critical, I'm good on that there is no pinging just straight up acceleration. The issue with doing the emissions test right away is that, if it doesn't pass your truck is labeled as a gross polluter, and you have to go to a star test only station, they can't tell you why your truck didn't pass. I did get the guy to mention that the cat may be the issue. I am having my shop take a look at the numbers Monday, and then go from there.
The engine is not full broken in until about 2000 mi. If I remember correctly, I talked to them on the phone about recommendations. They also recommend running the engine for 15 min at 1,300 rpm, and 20 min at 1,800 rpm.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi Chucks79,

What are the camshaft specs?  What is the compression ratio? Did you buy the Stage 1 Long Block from 22RE Performance?

Any good quality break-in oil should work fine, and JG oil was one of the top 3 that was recommended to me.

“Don't baby the engine but don't go to hard on it.”  … that is not a break-in procedure, it’s way to subjective.

The best and most accurate description of an “engine break-in procedure” for my 22RE rebuild is what Tod at engbldr described to me.

Recommending the use of conventional dino oil over synthetic oil after the first 1,000 or 2,000 miles seems to be based on the theory that synthetic oil is too slick and will delay the wear-in factor.  Personally, I’d love to see any reliable test data to back up the theory.

The guys at 22RE Performance seem to know their poop, but recommending emissions testing right away and during initial break-in doesn’t make sense to me at all! The chances of a freshly rebuilt engine passing CA EPA emissions testing is practically zero!  Using an emissions test to determine if a sensor is bad on a freshly rebuilt engine is like sniffing a rose through your butt.

When (mileage or run time) the engine is fully broken in is affected by several factors like:  engine machining – accuracy of tolerances, RA surface in cylinder walls, crosshatching, type of piston rings, degree of clean assembly, and proper prep-lubrication during assembly.

After initial firing, immediately re-checking and fine tune ignition timing is critical.

“having my shop take a look at the numbers” will not change the out of compliance numbers. Even if the engine tune was within specs, correct valve lash, and all sensors were working properly, the engine will most likely NOT pass emissions testing with 89 miles on it.  Doing a compression check could reveal any issues with valves or rings.  Testing the O2 sensor may be a good idea.

If possible, I would not have the engine emissions tested until at least 2,000 miles on the engine.  I would not install a new CAT until the engine is completely broken in.

DISCLAIMER:  I am NOT an engine builder and my current rebuild is the first time I have rebuilt a 22RE, so my comments are just my worthless opinion.

Please keep us up-to-date on how your new engine is working for you.

Gnarls.
 

[Slabzilla]

Gnarls is correct, you can't get complete ring seal until the engine has broken in properly, therefore you'll NOT PASS Commiefornication smog laws.  89 miles is a unbelieveably short time to even try. 1,000 min, 2,000 is better, 1,500 at the very least if you're in a huge hurry to fail again.   

[Chucks79 [OP]]

Yeah, I'm putting more miles on it every day. I think that that will improve the smog numbers. I am also going to look into O2 sensor replacement, possible cat, and check my EGR valve. I bought the regulator part of the EGR several years back. I it was just a plug in part (attach vacuum tubes). I need to inspect it further though because from the diagrams, and what I am reading there could be an issue there. Looks like it bolts onto the back of the intake plenum.

The O2 sensor could be bad its a aftermarket one, and its been on there for several years. The #2 cylinder was low compression before the rebuild, burning oil, so the cat is probably spent. I would like to trace the issue, and take care of it further upstream in the emissions system before applying a bandaid in the form of a new cat.

There are some really good posts about smog on this forum. Hey at least I know that a lot of Toyota's out there are also having a hard time passing smog. I have only street legal modifications done to my truck. LCE headers with a eo carb #, and a flow master muffler. I am running BFG 32s. All this can contribute to slightly higher values, but I have passed smog with all of these parts in the past. If all else fails I have heard that methanol in the gas tank works.

[Slabzilla]

Keep getting miles on that engine, set the valves, tune it and make sure all the smog crap is connected and working properly. EGR's and small vacuum leaks are some things to look at.  Getting a Cat or O2 should be done after more break-in, if needed, get the Cat hot (Fwy not around town) for an extended time.   

[nonwing]

I just got my second 22re Performance motor installed a few weeks ago.  The first one took about 8k miles to really wear in.  Jim told me they build their motors on the tight side.  Runs smooth as a sewing machine.

The second motor I smogged with less than 20 miles on it.  No issues.  Did you replace the O2 sensor and check everything else?  This truck sat for several years too.

[Gnarly4X]

...  The first one took about 8k miles to really wear in.  Jim told me they build their motors on the tight side.  Runs smooth as a sewing machine.

8,000 miles to completely break in a rebuilt engine seems very strange. 

Can you explain what "they build their motors on the tight side" means?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

8,000 miles to completely break in a rebuilt engine seems very strange. 

Can you explain what "they build their motors on the tight side" means?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

The specs they prefer are closer to the tight side then loose side. For instance, you have a crank bearing that has to be between .034-.046 (not real numbers) 22re Performance will build their engines closer to the .034.

[Gnarly4X]

The specs they prefer are closer to the tight side then loose side. For instance, you have a crank bearing that has to be between .034-.046 (not real numbers) 22re Performance will build their engines closer to the .034.

That's not really "tight" that's just to spec.

The bearings have very little to do with the main issue with "break in" - it's the rings and cylinder walls.  The rings, bore spec, cylinder wall cross-hatching, and RA are the machining part, then the HOW the engine is run for the fist 20 minutes or so is critical.  Then it's acceleration, WOT, RPM range, and deceleration while the vehicle is being driven that is most important for a good break in.

That's just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing what anyone is experiencing, or what 22RE Performance recommends or how they build their engines, I am just learning and reading information that I've never read or heard of before now... e.g. EPA test at early break in on rebuilt engine and 8,000 miles to completely break in a 22.

Gnarls.

[Mudder]

Gnarly, the closer it is the to left side of the specs makes it tight, as that's the tight end. But I do agree with you. The first 20 minutes are extremely critical and can make or break and engine. After that you have to get the rings seated in ordered to decrease the oil consumption. I follow Engnbldr's way and found a long hill and hit it at 2k rpms and went all the way to 4k at WOT. I did that a couple of times and it helped the engine for sure.

[Chucks79 [OP]]

The engine that I had rebuilt by 22RE performance is a stage one. Nonwing I have not replaced my O2 sensor yet or the cat. So you passed with 20 mi on the new engine? I am thinking that the reason that my truck is not passing is probably one of these components. There are some hills that I have been taking the truck up, and I have been down shifting letting the engine wind down when I am approaching a stop sign. The engine makes good power, and is much more peppy than my original engine that had over 260K on it.

When a piston engine is rebuilt on a small aircraft like a Cessna 172, four cylinder horizontally apposed engine, the recommendations are not to vary rpm's much. They tell you not to do touch, and go landings. Where the power goes from low rpm's to max rpm's. They also tell you to keep the fuel air mixture rich, and stay at lower altitudes. For the first ten hours or so. Some of the recommendations parallel a vehicle engine break in, its interesting to hear all of the varying opinions for breaking in an engine.   

[Mudder]

With a gas motor you're supposed to vary the rpm's for proper break in of the rings.

[Chucks79 [OP]]

Yes, I agree with varying the RPM's.

[:)bestgen4runner]

OK, lets put this one to Bed.  (Breaking in The new engine)
Start it, Run engine for 20 min at steady 2500 rpm, Let it completely cool down, change the oil,
Recheck (valve adjustment, timing, and idle/mixture).
Then the Most important part, Drive or use it just as you would once its broke in.
If everything was done correctly You have nothing to worry about. This is not 1950-60 tech hear
ring seating problems only happen now with cheap parts or poor machining!
? What do they do with the millions of engines produced for every vehicle on the road?
Easy, Read the above description again. Except, They don't change the oil.
I have worked on cars and trucks professionally for 20+ years. You know how many cylinders I have seen with ring seating issues. Maybe a handfull if that! 

[Gnarly4X]

Hey :)bestgen4runner,

Well… I’m not sure that will put it to bed. 

Over the years I’ve read hundreds of threads on engine rebuilds and break-ins. 

Comparing a Toyota factory assembly line with millions of dollars of the best equipment money can buy and a DIYer rebuilding an engine in his garage are two different engines. 

Here's my thinking.... 

There can be an issue with China-imports and cheap parts. But, more importantly, the machining of the block, boring, honing, Ra, and cross-hatching of cylinder walls is critical.  Accuracy with tolerances and proper pre-lube during assembly is very important. 

The first 20 or 30 minutes after initial firing of the engine is critical to maintain RPM to keep the oil pressure up to lubricate the camshaft and rockers.  After 20 or 30 minutes after initial firing, the plateau surface in the cylinder walls is mostly likely created. After checking everything over, fine tuning ignition timing, valve lash adjust, etc, etc, driving the truck for another 30 minutes or so, varying the RPMs, with quick bursts of acceleration and decelerating, keeping the RPMs below 4K RPMs while watching the engine temp gauge should get it 90%. I will check the head bolts.......then I’m going to see what WOT feels like to 5,500 in 1st and 2nd gears.    I don’t think that I want to change my $50 worth of break-in oil until it’s got a few hundred miles on it? 

But... I am not an engine builder. 

Gnarls

[:)bestgen4runner]

Hey :)bestgen4runner,

Well… I’m not sure that will put it to bed. 

Over the years I’ve read hundreds of threads on engine rebuilds and break-ins. 

Comparing a Toyota factory assembly line with millions of dollars of the best equipment money can buy and a DIYer rebuilding an engine in his garage are two different engines. 

Here's my thinking.... 

There can be an issue with China-imports and cheap parts. But, more importantly, the machining of the block, boring, honing, Ra, and cross-hatching of cylinder walls is critical.  Accuracy with tolerances and proper pre-lube during assembly is very important. 

The first 20 or 30 minutes after initial firing of the engine is critical to maintain RPM to keep the oil pressure up to lubricate the camshaft and rockers.  After 20 or 30 minutes after initial firing, the plateau surface in the cylinder walls is mostly likely created. After checking everything over, fine tuning ignition timing, valve lash adjust, etc, etc, driving the truck for another 30 minutes or so, varying the RPMs, with quick bursts of acceleration and decelerating, keeping the RPMs below 4K RPMs while watching the engine temp gauge should get it 90%. I will check the head bolts.......then I’m going to see what WOT feels like to 5,500 in 1st and 2nd gears.    I don’t think that I want to change my $50 worth of break-in oil until it’s got a few hundred miles on it? 

But... I am not an engine builder. 

Gnarls

What ever makes you feel more comfortable.   
You have restated most of what I said and added a few unnecessary items.
No offence, Its just not needed. As To the Oil, I believe in start up oil and break in oil. When You drain the "break in" Oil, Take a real good look at it, Better yet set a magnet in it overnight. I think you will be quite surprised. During That first 20-30 Min you are quite literally machining the internals of your engine. 
I have Been told about a dozen different ways to break in an engine over the years, Most if not all was completely unnecessary. people just get nervous about there time and $$$ investment.
Stay Gnarlly, 

[Gnarly4X]

.... people just get nervous about there time and $$$ investment....

Yes sir, I'd be lying if I said "I'm not nervous"!  With hours spent sweating in my garage, sweating in my mind, hoping that the machine shop did everything correct to my block and part of the assembly work, multiple times working on my engine while my anal pucker factor was way too high, not doing everything I should have, having some unexpected parts unavailable, and then going over-budget... Yeah... I AM nervous about making sure I'm doing everything "right"!!!... and especially firing my engine.

Gnarls.

[Chucks79 [OP]]

There are a lot of different opinions about breaking in a new engine. When you buy a new vehicle from the lot they sometimes tell you about engine break in procedure. There is a section on it in your owners manual. Some say don't hold it at 65 mph on the freeway for, an extended amount of time, and others say that is just a wives tale.
I agree with the time and money being spent on a rebuild there are some nerves involved. Overall its an engine, and it is made to be used. As long as you are not abusing it during the first few thousand miles and after that, I'm sure 9 out of ten times everything will be fine with it. There can be defective parts, or just the right conditions that can cause an engine to fail, or parts of it to fail. But as long as everything is set right, and you are consciously taking care of it things should go well.

[nonwing]

I just installed an engine from 22RE Performance and drove it straight to a smog test facility with maybe 5 miles on the motor.  Installed a new O2 sensor as part of the install.  Find a smog equipment repair shop and have everything checked out as.  They should be able to tell you what the problem is.  It's worth the money spent as it's a pain here in CA.