Topic: 22re won't start? Please help

[93REDCRAWLER]

So  my brother in law has a 93 pickup 22re has a brand new motor with less then 10000 miles on it and maybe only puts a thousand miles on it a year. It has always run rough and he has never been able to get it to where it ran properly and had the power it should. To expand on the running rough it blows grey smoke cause it's burning oil. He has replaced the head gasket already thinking that it was blown and it still blows the smoke. Yesterday he had me over to adjust his valves and time it . Timing was way off! And you can't turn the distributor far enough to get it to time correctly. So we made some adjustments thinking it was the distributor off a tooth. We TDC the cam and crank reinstalled distributor to number one . Started up but ran rough . Turned truck off pulled distributor and lined up TDC to the 5 degree mark and reinstalled distributor. Truck will no longer start it will crank but not fire. I've tried everything I know to do. Please any comment is appreciated. Thanks for the help in advance!

[Snowtoy]

Did you install the distributor this way?


If you did, and still can't set set the timing, the timing chain may not have been installed correctly by whomever rebuilt the engine.  Some people just think a t-chain is a chain, and don't pay any attention to the timing marks on a 22r(e), which wouldn't really matter if one side wasn't longer between the marks than the other.


Did you check the compression?

[Gnarly4X]

I haven't done this for quite awhile....

I’d go back to basics.

Make sure the #1 piston is firing and at top dead center. – rotate crank to get notch on harmonic balancer to zero (0) on the oil pump tab.  Verify you are TDC #1 firing – both intake and exhaust rockers on #1 cylinder should be loose.  You can also remove #1 spark plug and gently stick a long screw driver into hole and it should touch the top of the piston.

Make sure the distributor is located and dropped into the cam gear so when it is seated the center of the rotor tip is sitting at the center of number 1 contact in the cap.  You should see the disty hold down bolt near the center of the slot on the disty.

Jumper with a paper clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHEnyHoxv-U

Loosen the disty hold down bolt just enough the be able twist the distributor and make final adjustment.

Start the engine... Use a timing light to adjust timing mark so it appears on the 5 degree mark on the oil pump tab.

After timing, disconnect the timing light and make sure you’ve removed the jump and plugged the connector back into hole.

Even if the ignition timing is off 5 degrees, the engine should still start.

Let us know if you get it running and timed.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

..has a brand new motor with less then 10000 miles on it ... It has always run rough and he has never been able to get it to where it ran properly and had the power it should. To expand on the running rough it blows grey smoke cause it's burning oil.

What a bummer... It sounds like there are more serious mechanical issues with the engine than ignition timing.

Gnarls.

[93REDCRAWLER [OP]]

Did you install the distributor this way?


If you did, and still can't set set the timing, the timing chain may not have been installed correctly by whomever rebuilt the engine.  Some people just think a t-chain is a chain, and don't pay any attention to the timing marks on a 22r(e), which wouldn't really matter if one side wasn't longer between the marks than the other.


Did you check the compression?

I did make sure the marks were lined up before I reinstalled the distributor. But I can triple check that to be sure.  I personally have not checked the compression but my brother in law said when he did it that it was higher then it was supposed to be. I will find out for sure what the numbers were

[93REDCRAWLER [OP]]

So I asked him if he remembered the compression readings were 1-4
180
180
179
180

[Mudder]

Those aren't high at all...those would be considered dead on. Is a fuel injector not firing? What about the TPS? Any codes?

[Snowtoy]

If you installed the dist. per the FSM it should run well enough to set the timing to 5* BTD with the terminals jumped, and not run out of the dist.'s adjustment range.


If you can't do this, I would look at the timing chain.  Pull the valve cover and pan, rotate the engine to see if the timing marks(cam gear & crankshaft) line up with the t-chain marks, if they don't, remove/install the timing chain so you can verify the chain is installed correctly.

So I asked him if he remembered the compression readings were 1-4
180
180
179
180

Comp is good, minimum comp for a warm 22r(e) is 142psi(FSM psi #), I have never seen a max psi #.

[93REDCRAWLER [OP]]

If you installed the dist. per the FSM it should run well enough to set the timing to 5* BTD with the terminals jumped, and not run out of the dist.'s adjustment range.


If you can't do this, I would look at the timing chain.  Pull the valve cover and pan, rotate the engine to see if the timing marks(cam gear & crankshaft) line up with the t-chain marks, if they don't, remove/install the timing chain so you can verify the chain is installed correctly.
Comp is good, minimum comp for a warm 22r(e) is 142psi(FSM psi #), I have never seen a max psi #.

So I was able to get it started. That was awhile ago I just haven't had time to get back on and post some updates. The distributor I had off. Now it starts and runs. We've takin the valve cover off several times making sure the timing marks were lined up. Crank set to zero and cam pulley to 11:45 11:55. Is it possible that the lines could be lined up and the timing still off?  Is it possible that tha TPS isn't adjusted correctly? Or would that not have any real effect?

Thanks for all the help thus far

[Prismo]

The TPS set incorrectly can affect drivabilty, also set your valves if you have not. The TPS can be checked following the procedure in the FSM.

[Mudder]

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/TPS/index.shtml

[Snowtoy]

We've takin the valve cover off several times making sure the timing marks were lined up. Crank set to zero and cam pulley to 11:45 11:55. Is it possible that the lines could be lined up and the timing still off?

It could be a possibility, the only way to know for sure would be to drop the pan and see if the crank mark lines up as well, one link could be all it takes.  With it now running, I would check/test/inspect the rest of the ignition/fuel system, if that comes up negative, then it would be time to drop the pan and check all of the timing marks.

Is it possible that tha TPS isn't adjusted correctly? Or would that not have any real effect?

Thanks for all the help thus far

Depends on what the PO did to get it to run, need to test it to make sure.

[Gnarly4X]

... drop the pan and check all of the timing marks.
...

Drop the pan??  Are you talking about cam timing?

Gnarls.

[Snowtoy]

Drop the pan??  Are you talking about cam timing?

Gnarls.

Yes, in regards to determining if the t-chain was installed correctly, the cam marks can only tell half the story.

This seems off to me.

Crank set to zero and cam pulley to 11:45 11:55

[93REDCRAWLER [OP]]

Yes, in regards to determining if the t-chain was installed correctly, the cam marks can only tell half the story.

This seems off to me.

Ok  what should the cam marks be at?? Do you think that the cam should be straight up at 12 o'clock???

[Slabzilla]

Roger that!   

[Snowtoy]

Ok  what should the cam marks be at?? Do you think that the cam should be straight up at 12 o'clock???

Yes, when you install the chain.


The movement from 11:45 to 11:55 of the alignment marks as you crank the engine around, along with it having never ran right from the start, and how far out of adjustment the dist was, leads me to think the chain was not correctly installed.  Unfortunately, the only way to verify it is installed correctly, is to pull it and reinstall it. 

[Gnarly4X]

It could be a possibility, the only way to know for sure would be to drop the pan and see if the crank mark lines up as well, one link could be all it takes.  With it now running, I would check/test/inspect the rest of the ignition/fuel system, if that comes up negative, then it would be time to drop the pan and check all of the timing marks.
Depends on what the PO did to get it to run, need to test it to make sure.

I think I'm confused...  drop the pan??

When setting correct initial cam timing, the crank pulley can only be in one position.  If I set the timing mark in the crank pulley to zero on the oil pump tab, and I know that number cylinder is firing TDC with mark on crank pulley sitting at zero on the oil pump tab, I set the cam sprocket dot at 11:55 with cam sprocket keyway at exactly 12 o'clock, with the guides, tensionor, installed, and chain on the both sprockets.  I rotate the cam sprocket about 10 or 15 degrees retard and advance, again align the cam sprocket with the dot at 11:55 by slowly rotating the crank pulley, check that the crank timing mark is still sitting at zero..... how can anything else be "possibly" off??   

If the chain is off by 1 link, as I remember it's about 4 or 5 degrees cam timing either retard or advance.  If I rotate the crank to number 1 cylinder firing at TDC, looking at the cam sprocket with the dot at about 11:55, and the KEYWAY on the camshaft is NOT exactly at 12 o'clock, like 11:55 or 12:05, then the chain is off by one link and it will be obvious. 

The two bright links or dark links are just to correctly align the dots on the crank sprocket and cam sprocket while installing the chain, which has 48 links.  If the chain is correctly installed initially on the cam and crank sprockets, chain link number 24 will be sitting on the dot on the cam sprocket and chain link number 48 will be sitting on the dot on the crank sprocket.

But... since I am a loooongg waayyss from an "engine builder", and I don't get to practice too much on my Toyota trucks, I will happily defer to any of you experts out there.

Gnarls.

[Prismo]

Sounds about right to me. I also check the rockers on #1 to make sure they are "loose" to make sure I am not 180 degrees out.

[Gnarly4X]

Sounds about right to me. I also check the rockers on #1 to make sure they are "loose" to make sure I am not 180 degrees out.

Yes, that's what I do also to check that I have the cam at number one cylinder firing when the rockers have been set for proper gap spec.

Gnarls.

[Snowtoy]

I think I'm confused...  drop the pan??

When setting correct initial cam timing, the crank pulley can only be in one position.  If I set the timing mark in the crank pulley to zero on the oil pump tab, and I know that number cylinder is firing TDC with mark on crank pulley sitting at zero on the oil pump tab, I set the cam sprocket dot at 11:55 with cam sprocket keyway at exactly 12 o'clock, with the guides, tensionor, installed, and chain on the both sprockets.  I rotate the cam sprocket about 10 or 15 degrees retard and advance, again align the cam sprocket with the dot at 11:55 by slowly rotating the crank pulley, check that the crank timing mark is still sitting at zero..... how can anything else be "possibly" off??   

If the chain is off by 1 link, as I remember it's about 4 or 5 degrees cam timing either retard or advance.  If I rotate the crank to number 1 cylinder firing at TDC, looking at the cam sprocket with the dot at about 11:55, and the KEYWAY on the camshaft is NOT exactly at 12 o'clock, like 11:55 or 12:05, then the chain is off by one link and it will be obvious. 

The two bright links or dark links are just to correctly align the dots on the crank sprocket and cam sprocket while installing the chain, which has 48 links.  If the chain is correctly installed initially on the cam and crank sprockets, chain link number 24 will be sitting on the dot on the cam sprocket and chain link number 48 will be sitting on the dot on the crank sprocket.

But... since I am a loooongg waayyss from an "engine builder", and I don't get to practice too much on my Toyota trucks, I will happily defer to any of you experts out there.

Gnarls.

"Installing correctly" is the issue.  I am by no means an expert builder, I have only cracked open 12 Toyota engines over the years from simple repairs to full rebuilds, w/10 being the 22r series.  Of the 10 22's I have been into, 3 had the t-chains installed incorrectly.  One was installed w/no regards to the marks, the owner said it made a bang sound when he tried to to start it after he did the chain, had to redo the head due to bent valves.  The second one was an '84 and the t-chain was upside down at TDC, either the installer had the engine 180* out of timing when he installed the chain, or thought the chain manufacturer made a mistake and doubled up one set of links.   It ran but not well enough to set the timing, installed the chain correctly and it ran fine.  The third one ran fine but in order to do so the dist. had to be clocked so far counterclockwise the person who installed the chain cut the end of the adjustment arm off to be able to access the retaining bolt hole, then used a large washer/spacer to hold the dist. in place.  You would have thought that when he was taking a hacksaw to the dist., the thought he was doing something wrong should have crossed his mind.  After I installed the dist. correctly it wouldn't run at all, so I figured the chain had to have been installed wrong and that is why the installer had to modify the dist.  I pulled it down and at TDC the cam gear aligned with the link on the chain, but the crank was off, I reinstalled the chain and it ran/timed correctly w/the dist. in its correct place.   Based on the info 93REDCRAWLER's gave, it seemed like the t-chain wasn't installed correctly by the builder of the "new rebuilt" engine.  With the valve cover off he could only see the cam/chain marks, IIRC from replacing rod bearings, there is just enough of the crank gear sprocket exposed with the pan off that he might be able to see the bottom timing marks.  I have never tried it this way, but if he could see the timing marks, it would save him from having to remove the timing cover.

[Gnarly4X]

"Installing correctly" is the issue.  I am by no means an expert builder, I have only cracked open 12 Toyota engines over the years from simple repairs to full rebuilds, w/10 being the 22r series.  Of the 10 22's I have been into, 3 had the t-chains installed incorrectly.  One was installed w/no regards to the marks, the owner said it made a bang sound when he tried to to start it after he did the chain, had to redo the head due to bent valves.  The second one was an '84 and the t-chain was upside down at TDC, either the installer had the engine 180* out of timing when he installed the chain, or thought the chain manufacturer made a mistake and doubled up one set of links.   It ran but not well enough to set the timing, installed the chain correctly and it ran fine.  The third one ran fine but in order to do so the dist. had to be clocked so far counterclockwise the person who installed the chain cut the end of the adjustment arm off to be able to access the retaining bolt hole, then used a large washer/spacer to hold the dist. in place.  You would have thought that when he was taking a hacksaw to the dist., the thought he was doing something wrong should have crossed his mind.  After I installed the dist. correctly it wouldn't run at all, so I figured the chain had to have been installed wrong and that is why the installer had to modify the dist.  I pulled it down and at TDC the cam gear aligned with the link on the chain, but the crank was off, I reinstalled the chain and it ran/timed correctly w/the dist. in its correct place.   Based on the info 93REDCRAWLER's gave, it seemed like the t-chain wasn't installed correctly by the builder of the "new rebuilt" engine.  With the valve cover off he could only see the cam/chain marks, IIRC from replacing rod bearings, there is just enough of the crank gear sprocket exposed with the pan off that he might be able to see the bottom timing marks.  I have never tried it this way, but if he could see the timing marks, it would save him from having to remove the timing cover.

Hey Snowtoy,

Unless I'm completely screwed up (which is a possibility at my age)....  You don't need to remove the t-chain cover or drop the oil pan to CHECK the cam timing.  IF the chain is off by a link, then you could correct it by making sure the crank pulley is at zero on the timing tab, #1 cylinder is firing, both valve rockers are loose (TDC), remove the cam sprocket, adjust the chain to correct  so dot on cam sprocket is sitting at 11:55 with camshaft keyway at 12:00.  Reinstall the cam sprocket onto the end of the camshaft.  The bright links have NOTHING to do with cam timing other than for correctly locating the chain on both sprockets dots during initial installation of timing chain kit.