Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[toyodaaddict]

I have done a few head gaskets on 22R/RE engines. I have yet to see a Toyota head gasket fail prematurely. What I have seen is people do a head gasket job or have a shop do it, then the gasket fails in 6-12 months. What have these all had in common, aftermarket gaskets, mostly felpro. I refuse to use anything other than a factory gasket, whether it is my truck or someone else's I'm working on. If you look at a felpro side by side with a Toyota gasket I think you will see the difference I am talking about.

I can understand respecting the opinion of your head guy but I cant imagine he would object to you using a Toyota gasket.

I have used two head gaskets purchased through 22reperformance. They where the same gaskets you will get through the dealer. If I recall, they where in the factory Toyota packaging. I didn't really save any $$ buying through them, so if your worried you wont get factory Toyota just go to the dealer, they're about $50.

I have heard people I trust talk highly of MLS head gaskets. I don't know much about them and Toyota gaskets have served me so well I've never gotten around to looking into it.

Thats my experience/opinion on head gaskets. I hope this time around goes better and the head work gets you fixed up. 

[H8PVMNT]

I have had 2 "OEM" head gaskets from 22re performance and they were both TOTOTA brand.  So they are in fact OEM OEM.

[cbeers]

another vote for 22re performance.  i bought their kit when doing my top end.
compared to the gaskets from engnbldr it was a no brainer.

I did use felpro on my fj40.....but that had a 327   

CB

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I have done a few head gaskets on 22R/RE engines. I have yet to see a Toyota head gasket fail prematurely.

Hi t...

Thank you.

Your comments are exactly the detail of information I look for.  The factory head gasket gets high, if not the highest marks, from many people, so I know it is safe choice.  And, I agree, I don't recall anyone posting a statement that they had an issue with the "qualilty" a Toyota gasket or part.  As we know, bgen is a very strong advocate for Toyota's "stuff".

I am going to buy a Fel-Pro and a factory Toyota.  I WILL compare them, at least visually.  I have almost $6,000 invested into this rebuild/restore project, so for me the price of a gasket is completely insignificant.

The parts I've ordered from 22REP have been in Toyota packaging, but because I've had bad experiences with aftermarket and "OE" designated parts, I'm probably overly cautious.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I have had 2 "OEM" head gaskets from 22re performance and they were both TOTOTA brand.  So they are in fact OEM OEM.

Thanks H...

Yeah, all the parts that I've ordered from 22REP have been in Toyota packaging. 

But at this point, I'm probably overly anal. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

another vote for 22re performance.  i bought their kit when doing my top end.
compared to the gaskets from engnbldr it was a no brainer.

I did use felpro on my fj40.....but that had a 327   

CB

Thanks cbeers!  Yeah... those guys have a super good to me!!

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

If money isn’t a factor in the decision, then I am completely baffled why it’s not an obvious choice to use Toyota OEM gaskets. If you have another failure using any other brand you’ll be kicking yourself. Toyota has a long and successful history with 22R-E engines.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

If money isn’t a factor in the decision, then I am completely baffled why it’s not an obvious choice to use Toyota OEM gaskets. If you have another failure using any other brand you’ll be kicking yourself. Toyota has a long and successful history with 22R-E engines.

Hey bd...

I completely agree.  I just posted my "Fel-Pro" choice to stimulate some "Tech Talk" here... it was getting sluggish. 

Gnarls. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  MAY 19, 2019

I’m waiting to get my order from 22RE Performance – head gasket and ARP Stud Kit.

I have received all the other gaskets. 

I have a Fel-Pro head gasket and I’ll compare that with the $49.00 OE from 22RE Performance. 

Has anyone installed an ARP Stud Kit in a 22 block?  How did you do it?  What did you torque the nuts down to?

I will have to order 3 new fuel injector connectors – they are broken after 33 years.  I replaced the No 1 connector after some diagnosing to figure out why #1 was not firing when I first fired the engine. 

I will have to cut, wire prep, solder, and heat shrink connector wires… probably take me a couple hours. 

If I don’t run into an “Oh $hit!!” while I’m putting on the new head and putting everything back together, I hope to have it running by next week end. 

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

Yeah man!

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Yeah man!

Hey H...

How's everything at 47.5847° N, 110.7922° W?

I'm really hoping by some miracle the oil consumption will go away with this new head and back to stock cam.

I've got so much to fix before I feel better about my progress on this restoration.

I looked for this truck for over 2 years.  I wanted another 22R, but I could not turn this one down, it was in too good of condition!  This truck has had more "fix it's" than my other two... of course it's 33 years old now.

I have a couple of "family" issues going on, so I'm hoping to squeeze out some time to get my hands back on this engine.

Gnarls.

[:)bestgen4runner]

If this fails I'm willing to come down and pick it up. I have one last Boy I need to outfit with a Toyota truck, Yours would be perfect.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

If this fails I'm willing to come down and pick it up. I have one last Boy I need to outfit with a Toyota truck, Yours would be perfect.

Haahhahaha... You are one person I'd think would appreciate a 4th Gen truck in the condition it is in.  But I'd only sell it to someone who WILL NOT take it out and trash the crap out of it.  1986 Toyota trucks in this original condition is getting rare.

My gut feeling is saying this new head will NOT fix the oil consumption issue.  I believe its either a bad bore and hone job (wrong RA), or defective rings as Jim at 22RE Performance suspected.

If it continues to burn a quart of oil every 600 or 700 miles, I'll probably pull it and have Jim at 22RE Performance build me a long block.  One option I have tossed around in my head is to rebuild it again myself to prove to myself I really can successfully rebuild a 22RE.  If I do that, I'll bore it again and put in a stroker kit.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  May 24, 2019

Got my Toy head gasket and ARP stud kit.  Waiting for my thread chaser kit.

I took a preliminary look at the head gaskets – the one from engnbldr kit (assume it’s DNJ) out of my engine rebuild, the Fel Pro, and Toyota OE.

I believe I figured out why the head gasket was leaking coolant during one of my leak down tests.  If what I see if true, I’m very disappointed in the DNJ (engnbldr gasket) as it was a complete gasket failure in less than 27,000 miles on a new head and machined block.  I need to look closer with a magnifying glass and take some photos.

A quick measurement shows the DNJ gasket is thickest, then Fel Pro, the Toyota gasket is thinnest.  The DNJ and Toyota look similar, but there is one significant difference.  They also are the slipper plate style.  The Fel Pro is not slipper plate.  There is debate on the slipper plate design and an issue with sealing.  The topic of head gaskets, especially on a bi-metal engine is a raging debate.

I got my new fuel injector connectors wired on numbers 2,3, and 4 to replace the cracked and broken 33 year old original connectors.    https://imgur.com/N9ygTTu

I have lots of cleaning of the top of that engine deck and tops of the pistons.  Then lots of solvent cleaning and compressed air before I can install the new head.

I’ll post some more detailed findings with these 3 head gaskets later.

The one on top is the one from engnbldr's kit (I think it's a DNJ label)  the one in the middle is Toyota OEM, the one on the bottom is the Fel Pro PermaTorque.

The Slipper plate design in the DNJ and the Toyota have the metal layer on top facing the bottom of the head when installed.  The design is supposed to allow slippage on the gasket surface while the coefficient of expansion is about 1.5 time more for the allow head than the cast iron block.  But some experts say they are more difficult to get a good seal and the tend to leak.

https://imgur.com/f93JT1H

https://imgur.com/WzrjJHN

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Which head gasket is which in your pictures?

What is slipper plate style?

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Which head gasket is which in your pictures?

What is slipper plate style?

Hey e..

The one on top is the one from engnbldr's kit (I think it's a DNJ label)  the one in the middle is Toyota OEM, the one on the bottom is the Fel Pro PermaTorque.

The Slipper plate design in the DNJ and the Toyota have the metal layer on top facing the bottom of the head when installed.  The design is supposed to allow slippage on the gasket surface while the coefficient of expansion is about 1.5 times more for the alloy head than the cast iron block.  Theoretically, the metal sheet is supposed to prevent the tearing of the gasket surface as the head expands and contracts.  But some experts say they are more difficult to get a good seal and they tend to leak.  I'm sure there is plenty of debate on this. I've read 1000's of posts on the discussion on head gaskets.

I'll post more about this later.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  MAY 25, 2019

HEAD GASKETS

I examined the DNJ failed head gasket and the new Fel Pro and Toyota OE.

Like I discovered when I did my version of examining the transmission input shaft seals, WOW… I am shocked at what is being manufactured and how I can just examine it and see why the part failed, and how it is inferior to other manufacturer’s same replacement part.

The head gasket contained in the engnbldr rebuild kit, like the rocker cover gasket kit, is probably a Chinese version of a copy… a questionable quality and design.  In my opinion, the head gasket visually appears to be inferior in design to Toyota and Fel Pro.  The DNJ gasket basically delaminated and allowed coolant to get into the #3 cylinder.  There is a separate ring that sits on top of the slipper plate and does not seal the very edge of the cylinder fire ring.  It can delaminate and allow combustion gases and coolant to leak into layers of the gasket and eventually into the combustion chamber.

On the Toyota and the Fel Pro, there is no separate ring.  The metal slipper plate is sealed with a 2-cylinder metal piece the wraps completely around cylinder 1 & 2, and 3 & 4 ring edge.  It cannot delaminate.

The Toyota gasket is about .052” thick. (new)
The FelPro gaskest is about .062” thick. (new)
The DNJ gasket is about. 066” thick (used)

I prefer the Toyota gasket because it is thinner and should not compress as much.  I assume thicker gaskets will have some affect on compression ratio.  It also has a sealer bead for the timing cover to bottom of head seal.

That is my unscientific evaluation.

My lesson learned.  Admittedly too late in my life!  When it comes to very important and more critical gaskets or seals (like the input shaft seal, rear crankshaft seal, head gasket, I will not compromise and buy a non-Toyota gasket or seal.  For me it’s absolutely not worth saving $10 or $50, have a failure and then have to rebuild something or take the time, sweat, and money to have to do a complete R&R for a premature failure.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

If you are interested, here are two quotes from two "experts" on head gaskets, specifically discussing gaskets for bi-metal engines (alloy head on cast iron block) and the slipper plate design.  The two quotes have been clipped from two different public internet forums and are about 11 years apart. 

There a many discussions and comments on head gasket design, likes and dislikes, just like any other topic in the automotive realm.

https://imgur.com/JAAAQ3T  - a clip from of public internet forum - EB Ted from engnbldr.

https://imgur.com/m2VW02D  - a clip from a public internet forum -  Fel Pro Team member.

Any comments?

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

How tight did you torque down your head?



 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

How tight did you torque down your head?



 

Good question.  Tod at engnbldr recommended 63 lbs.  That's what I torqued to.  As you know, the Toy spec is 58 lbs.

Jim at 22RE Performance recommended 80 lbs on the OE gasket and ARP stud kit.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  June 2, 2019

SHORT VERSION:
•   Had binding issues with ARP Studs.
•   Installed ARP Studs.
•   Mounted head with Toyota head gasket
•   Torqued head down to 75 lbs.
•   Ready to put engine back together.

LONG VERSION:

I had trouble with several of the ARP studs – binding before fully seating in the block.

The ARP studs have rolled threads.  The threads on the bolts are also rolled.

After chasing every thread in the block, on the studs, on the old head bolts, I still had studs binding in the block before seating at the bottom.

I cleaned every hole in the block with carb and brake cleaner and blew them out with compressed air.  I chased every block thread hold, then a cleaned and blew them out again… probably 3 to 4 times each.

The chaser spun into the threads in the block with zero resistance after several insertions and cleaning with brake cleaner and hit with compressed air.  The chaser on 4 of the 10 studs had some resistance by hand and 2 required a socket on the thread chaser nut.  The stud nuts spun on the studs with zero resistance.

I cleaned all the threads on the bolts and they spun into the block with no problem.

I could NOT figure out why the studs were binding up inside the block?

I tried the studs in different holes in the block and switching the studs.  I was able to get 8 of the studs screwed into the block with zero to slight resistance.  Most went in by hand.  Two of them bound up about 1/4” from seating.  I had to use a short allen wrench and they twisted in with way more resistance than they should have.

At one point I decided to just use the old bolts – only 26,000 miles on them.

After sleeping on it, I ended up leaving the studs in and torqued down the head to 75 lbs.  Jim at 22REP recommended 80 lbs, but my torque wrench may not be perfectly calibrated, so I stopped at 75 lbs.  75 lbs on that head feels very high.  Considering the factory torque spec is 58 lbs, it’s interesting that ARP recommends 90, 22REP recommends 80 for ARP studs, and Tod at engnbldr recommended 63 lbs for new bolts.  The torque spec on a Chevy 350 cast head is 65 lbs.

So far I’m not impressed the ARP Stud Kit.  One concern I have is if and when I want to remove the head, the studs will have to be removed.  I cannot get the head off with the studs in.  Removing those ARP studs after mileage on the engine may be a serious problem.  Just based upon removing the head bolts on heads in the past, I don’t believe the allen socket and an allen wrench on the top of the studs will be strong enough to handle the amount torque it will most likely will take to break the studs loose.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Did you have or test for binding on the original rebuild?

I'm thinking that if you had binding, you really didn't have enough torque on some of the bolts originally, and that would cause head gasket problems.....

Double nutting the studs to get them out may be the better way later...………….

Do you think the binding is really trapped air or oil?

[cbeers]

hey Gnarly
another thing i do for these types of situations is use Qtips to clean the threads. spray your cleaner then spin the qtips around and repeat with new qtips until clean.
might be worth a shot? 
CB

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

hey Gnarly
another thing i do for these types of situations is use Qtips to clean the threads. spray your cleaner then spin the qtips around and repeat with new qtips until clean.
might be worth a shot? 
CB

Hey CB,

I have never used a Q-tip to clean threads.  Like I said, I use solvent - carb cleaner, brake cleaner, paint thinner, lacquer thinner, acetone, or MEK.  I brush the threads with a wire brush, apply some solvent, then blow them off with compressed air, then run the chaser over the threads, clean with solvent again, and blow them off with compressed air.  Trust me... those threads were practically sterile!!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Hey e...

When I did the first rebuild, I cleaned the holes in the block and the threads on the new bolts really well.  I tested them by spinning them into the block by hand - no problems, no binding.  I believe the failed head gasket was just Chinese junk.

Trapped air... I'd be very surprised if those studs could trap air, but if that were true, then after seating the stud at the bottom of the hole, the air would be compressed out, right?  So then I should be able spin the stud out with little to no resistance, BUT they came out as hard as I torqued them in.

I did suspect that the ARP lubricant was an issue, so I cleaned it off and just sprayed the threads on the stud with silicone spray. Still got bind.


Gnarls.

[Snowtoy]

So far I’m not impressed the ARP Stud Kit.  One concern I have is if and when I want to remove the head, the studs will have to be removed.  I cannot get the head off with the studs in..............

If it is similar to the 3.0, if/when you remove the head, removing the rear two studs should give you the ability to remove the head without needing to remove the other studs.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

Ive had zero issues with arp studs, installing and removing.  Multiple heads removals too...  torque to there spec.   Remember the torque load is on the stud...

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Ive had zero issues with arp studs, installing and removing.  Multiple heads removals too...  torque to there spec.   Remember the torque load is on the stud...

Well... that's good to know!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Well... I certainly tried to get the head over the top of the studs with the back two removed... still could not see how it would work.  The back of the head hits the firewall.

Gnarls.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

They have the allen in the end.   Cross thread is better than locktite...