Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[Gnarly4X]

UPDATE:  MAY 25, 2019

HEAD GASKETS

I examined the DNJ failed head gasket and the new Fel Pro and Toyota OE.

Like I discovered when I did my version of examining the transmission input shaft seals, WOW… I am shocked at what is being manufactured and how I can just examine it and see why the part failed, and how it is inferior to other manufacturer’s same replacement part.

The head gasket contained in the engnbldr rebuild kit, like the rocker cover gasket kit, is probably a Chinese version of a copy… a questionable quality and design.  In my opinion, the head gasket visually appears to be inferior in design to Toyota and Fel Pro.  The DNJ gasket basically delaminated and allowed coolant to get into the #3 cylinder.  There is a separate ring that sits on top of the slipper plate and does not seal the very edge of the cylinder fire ring.  It can delaminate and allow combustion gases and coolant to leak into layers of the gasket and eventually into the combustion chamber.

On the Toyota and the Fel Pro, there is no separate ring.  The metal slipper plate is sealed with a 2-cylinder metal piece the wraps completely around cylinder 1 & 2, and 3 & 4 ring edge.  It cannot delaminate.

The Toyota gasket is about .052” thick. (new)
The FelPro gaskest is about .062” thick. (new)
The DNJ gasket is about. 066” thick (used)

I prefer the Toyota gasket because it is thinner and should not compress as much.  I assume thicker gaskets will have some affect on compression ratio.  It also has a sealer bead for the timing cover to bottom of head seal.

That is my unscientific evaluation.

My lesson learned.  Admittedly too late in my life!  When it comes to very important and more critical gaskets or seals (like the input shaft seal, rear crankshaft seal, head gasket, I will not compromise and buy a non-Toyota gasket or seal.  For me it’s absolutely not worth saving $10 or $50, have a failure and then have to rebuild something or take the time, sweat, and money to have to do a complete R&R for a premature failure.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

If you are interested, here are two quotes from two "experts" on head gaskets, specifically discussing gaskets for bi-metal engines (alloy head on cast iron block) and the slipper plate design.  The two quotes have been clipped from two different public internet forums and are about 11 years apart. 

There a many discussions and comments on head gasket design, likes and dislikes, just like any other topic in the automotive realm.

https://imgur.com/JAAAQ3T  - a clip from of public internet forum - EB Ted from engnbldr.

https://imgur.com/m2VW02D  - a clip from a public internet forum -  Fel Pro Team member.

Any comments?

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

How tight did you torque down your head?



 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

How tight did you torque down your head?



 

Good question.  Tod at engnbldr recommended 63 lbs.  That's what I torqued to.  As you know, the Toy spec is 58 lbs.

Jim at 22RE Performance recommended 80 lbs on the OE gasket and ARP stud kit.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

UPDATE:  June 2, 2019

SHORT VERSION:
•   Had binding issues with ARP Studs.
•   Installed ARP Studs.
•   Mounted head with Toyota head gasket
•   Torqued head down to 75 lbs.
•   Ready to put engine back together.

LONG VERSION:

I had trouble with several of the ARP studs – binding before fully seating in the block.

The ARP studs have rolled threads.  The threads on the bolts are also rolled.

After chasing every thread in the block, on the studs, on the old head bolts, I still had studs binding in the block before seating at the bottom.

I cleaned every hole in the block with carb and brake cleaner and blew them out with compressed air.  I chased every block thread hold, then a cleaned and blew them out again… probably 3 to 4 times each.

The chaser spun into the threads in the block with zero resistance after several insertions and cleaning with brake cleaner and hit with compressed air.  The chaser on 4 of the 10 studs had some resistance by hand and 2 required a socket on the thread chaser nut.  The stud nuts spun on the studs with zero resistance.

I cleaned all the threads on the bolts and they spun into the block with no problem.

I could NOT figure out why the studs were binding up inside the block?

I tried the studs in different holes in the block and switching the studs.  I was able to get 8 of the studs screwed into the block with zero to slight resistance.  Most went in by hand.  Two of them bound up about 1/4” from seating.  I had to use a short allen wrench and they twisted in with way more resistance than they should have.

At one point I decided to just use the old bolts – only 26,000 miles on them.

After sleeping on it, I ended up leaving the studs in and torqued down the head to 75 lbs.  Jim at 22REP recommended 80 lbs, but my torque wrench may not be perfectly calibrated, so I stopped at 75 lbs.  75 lbs on that head feels very high.  Considering the factory torque spec is 58 lbs, it’s interesting that ARP recommends 90, 22REP recommends 80 for ARP studs, and Tod at engnbldr recommended 63 lbs for new bolts.  The torque spec on a Chevy 350 cast head is 65 lbs.

So far I’m not impressed the ARP Stud Kit.  One concern I have is if and when I want to remove the head, the studs will have to be removed.  I cannot get the head off with the studs in.  Removing those ARP studs after mileage on the engine may be a serious problem.  Just based upon removing the head bolts on heads in the past, I don’t believe the allen socket and an allen wrench on the top of the studs will be strong enough to handle the amount torque it will most likely will take to break the studs loose.

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Did you have or test for binding on the original rebuild?

I'm thinking that if you had binding, you really didn't have enough torque on some of the bolts originally, and that would cause head gasket problems.....

Double nutting the studs to get them out may be the better way later...………….

Do you think the binding is really trapped air or oil?

[cbeers]

hey Gnarly
another thing i do for these types of situations is use Qtips to clean the threads. spray your cleaner then spin the qtips around and repeat with new qtips until clean.
might be worth a shot? 
CB

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

hey Gnarly
another thing i do for these types of situations is use Qtips to clean the threads. spray your cleaner then spin the qtips around and repeat with new qtips until clean.
might be worth a shot? 
CB

Hey CB,

I have never used a Q-tip to clean threads.  Like I said, I use solvent - carb cleaner, brake cleaner, paint thinner, lacquer thinner, acetone, or MEK.  I brush the threads with a wire brush, apply some solvent, then blow them off with compressed air, then run the chaser over the threads, clean with solvent again, and blow them off with compressed air.  Trust me... those threads were practically sterile!!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Hey e...

When I did the first rebuild, I cleaned the holes in the block and the threads on the new bolts really well.  I tested them by spinning them into the block by hand - no problems, no binding.  I believe the failed head gasket was just Chinese junk.

Trapped air... I'd be very surprised if those studs could trap air, but if that were true, then after seating the stud at the bottom of the hole, the air would be compressed out, right?  So then I should be able spin the stud out with little to no resistance, BUT they came out as hard as I torqued them in.

I did suspect that the ARP lubricant was an issue, so I cleaned it off and just sprayed the threads on the stud with silicone spray. Still got bind.


Gnarls.

[Snowtoy]

So far I’m not impressed the ARP Stud Kit.  One concern I have is if and when I want to remove the head, the studs will have to be removed.  I cannot get the head off with the studs in..............

If it is similar to the 3.0, if/when you remove the head, removing the rear two studs should give you the ability to remove the head without needing to remove the other studs.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

Ive had zero issues with arp studs, installing and removing.  Multiple heads removals too...  torque to there spec.   Remember the torque load is on the stud...

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Ive had zero issues with arp studs, installing and removing.  Multiple heads removals too...  torque to there spec.   Remember the torque load is on the stud...

Well... that's good to know!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Well... I certainly tried to get the head over the top of the studs with the back two removed... still could not see how it would work.  The back of the head hits the firewall.

Gnarls.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

They have the allen in the end.   Cross thread is better than locktite...

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

They have the allen in the end.   Cross thread is better than locktite...

Yes E... I know the studs have an allen socket in one end of the stud.

Yeah... I think I have an old tube of Cross Thread somewhere in my garage. 

And, as I remember it DID work better than Loctite. 

Gnarls. 

[:)bestgen4runner]

Jesse has a body lift. I think that might be helping him with installing the head in the vehicle.

[EASYRYDERDANGER]

I put them in after