Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 188986 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

toyodaaddict

  • Offline 4WD Legend
  • *****
  • Turtle Points: 408
  • Male Posts: 852
  • Member since Sep '08
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1890 on: Mar 17, 2019, 08:55:26 PM »
I have done a few head gaskets on 22R/RE engines. I have yet to see a Toyota head gasket fail prematurely. What I have seen is people do a head gasket job or have a shop do it, then the gasket fails in 6-12 months. What have these all had in common, aftermarket gaskets, mostly felpro. I refuse to use anything other than a factory gasket, whether it is my truck or someone else's I'm working on. If you look at a felpro side by side with a Toyota gasket I think you will see the difference I am talking about.

I can understand respecting the opinion of your head guy but I cant imagine he would object to you using a Toyota gasket.

I have used two head gaskets purchased through 22reperformance. They where the same gaskets you will get through the dealer. If I recall, they where in the factory Toyota packaging. I didn't really save any $$ buying through them, so if your worried you wont get factory Toyota just go to the dealer, they're about $50.

I have heard people I trust talk highly of MLS head gaskets. I don't know much about them and Toyota gaskets have served me so well I've never gotten around to looking into it.

Thats my experience/opinion on head gaskets. I hope this time around goes better and the head work gets you fixed up. 

80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,85 front axle,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     Also 84 toy DD 22R 4.88s,33'' toyo mt'z, marlin clutch,4inch lift/63's, HA drivelines.

H8PVMNT

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 451
  • Male Posts: 3,503
  • Member since May '07
  • I'LL NEVER MAKE IT...
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1891 on: Mar 18, 2019, 03:06:31 AM »
I have had 2 "OEM" head gaskets from 22re performance and they were both TOTOTA brand.  So they are in fact OEM OEM.
I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.
Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

cbeers

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2430
  • Posts: 207
  • Member since Jan '14
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1892 on: Mar 18, 2019, 05:51:11 AM »
another vote for 22re performance.  i bought their kit when doing my top end.
compared to the gaskets from engnbldr it was a no brainer.

I did use felpro on my fj40.....but that had a 327   :driving:

CB

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1893 on: Mar 18, 2019, 05:51:50 AM »
I have done a few head gaskets on 22R/RE engines. I have yet to see a Toyota head gasket fail prematurely.


Hi t...

Thank you.

Your comments are exactly the detail of information I look for.  The factory head gasket gets high, if not the highest marks, from many people, so I know it is safe choice.  And, I agree, I don't recall anyone posting a statement that they had an issue with the "qualilty" a Toyota gasket or part.  As we know, bgen is a very strong advocate for Toyota's "stuff".

I am going to buy a Fel-Pro and a factory Toyota.  I WILL compare them, at least visually.  I have almost $6,000 invested into this rebuild/restore project, so for me the price of a gasket is completely insignificant.

The parts I've ordered from 22REP have been in Toyota packaging, but because I've had bad experiences with aftermarket and "OE" designated parts, I'm probably overly cautious.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1894 on: Mar 18, 2019, 05:55:09 AM »
I have had 2 "OEM" head gaskets from 22re performance and they were both TOTOTA brand.  So they are in fact OEM OEM.

Thanks H...

Yeah, all the parts that I've ordered from 22REP have been in Toyota packaging. 

But at this point, I'm probably overly anal.  :smack:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1895 on: Mar 18, 2019, 05:56:53 AM »
another vote for 22re performance.  i bought their kit when doing my top end.
compared to the gaskets from engnbldr it was a no brainer.

I did use felpro on my fj40.....but that had a 327   :driving:

CB

Thanks cbeers!  Yeah... those guys have a super good to me!!

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

blackdiamond

  • Offline Gold Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 1187
  • Male Posts: 4,888
  • Member since Dec '03
  • Crawlin with Marlin
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1896 on: Mar 18, 2019, 08:08:49 AM »
If money isnt a factor in the decision, then I am completely baffled why its not an obvious choice to use Toyota OEM gaskets. If you have another failure using any other brand youll be kicking yourself. Toyota has a long and successful history with 22R-E engines.

1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

Moab Tested & Rubicon Approved

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1897 on: Mar 18, 2019, 11:07:29 AM »
If money isnt a factor in the decision, then I am completely baffled why its not an obvious choice to use Toyota OEM gaskets. If you have another failure using any other brand youll be kicking yourself. Toyota has a long and successful history with 22R-E engines.



Hey bd...

I completely agree.  I just posted my "Fel-Pro" choice to stimulate some "Tech Talk" here... it was getting sluggish.  :gap:

Gnarls.  :driving:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1898 on: May 19, 2019, 03:14:59 PM »
UPDATE:  MAY 19, 2019

Im waiting to get my order from 22RE Performance head gasket and ARP Stud Kit.

I have received all the other gaskets.  :biggthumpup:

I have a Fel-Pro head gasket and Ill compare that with the $49.00 OE from 22RE Performance.  :yesnod:

Has anyone installed an ARP Stud Kit in a 22 block?  How did you do it?  What did you torque the nuts down to?

I will have to order 3 new fuel injector connectors they are broken after 33 years.  I replaced the No 1 connector after some diagnosing to figure out why #1 was not firing when I first fired the engine.  :blah:

I will have to cut, wire prep, solder, and heat shrink connector wires probably take me a couple hours.  :gap:

If I dont run into an Oh $hit!! while Im putting on the new head and putting everything back together, I hope to have it running by next week end.  :crossed:

Gnarls. :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

H8PVMNT

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 451
  • Male Posts: 3,503
  • Member since May '07
  • I'LL NEVER MAKE IT...
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1899 on: May 20, 2019, 06:42:59 PM »
Yeah man!
I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.
Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1900 on: May 20, 2019, 07:06:38 PM »
Yeah man!

Hey H...

How's everything at 47.5847 N, 110.7922 W?

I'm really hoping by some miracle the oil consumption will go away with this new head and back to stock cam.

I've got so much to fix before I feel better about my progress on this restoration.

I looked for this truck for over 2 years.  I wanted another 22R, but I could not turn this one down, it was in too good of condition!  This truck has had more "fix it's" than my other two... of course it's 33 years old now.

I have a couple of "family" issues going on, so I'm hoping to squeeze out some time to get my hands back on this engine.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

:)bestgen4runner

  • Offline The 1.5K Club
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 2140
  • Male Posts: 1,753
  • Member since Mar '16
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1901 on: May 24, 2019, 01:33:21 PM »
If this fails I'm willing to come down and pick it up. I have one last Boy I need to outfit with a Toyota truck, Yours would be perfect.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1902 on: May 24, 2019, 01:49:05 PM »
If this fails I'm willing to come down and pick it up. I have one last Boy I need to outfit with a Toyota truck, Yours would be perfect.

Haahhahaha... You are one person I'd think would appreciate a 4th Gen truck in the condition it is in.  But I'd only sell it to someone who WILL NOT take it out and trash the crap out of it.  1986 Toyota trucks in this original condition is getting rare.

My gut feeling is saying this new head will NOT fix the oil consumption issue.  I believe its either a bad bore and hone job (wrong RA), or defective rings as Jim at 22RE Performance suspected.

If it continues to burn a quart of oil every 600 or 700 miles, I'll probably pull it and have Jim at 22RE Performance build me a long block.  One option I have tossed around in my head is to rebuild it again myself to prove to myself I really can successfully rebuild a 22RE.  If I do that, I'll bore it again and put in a stroker kit.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1903 on: May 24, 2019, 01:51:18 PM »
UPDATE:  May 24, 2019

Got my Toy head gasket and ARP stud kit.  Waiting for my thread chaser kit.

I took a preliminary look at the head gaskets the one from engnbldr kit (assume its DNJ) out of my engine rebuild, the Fel Pro, and Toyota OE.

I believe I figured out why the head gasket was leaking coolant during one of my leak down tests.  If what I see if true, Im very disappointed in the DNJ (engnbldr gasket) as it was a complete gasket failure in less than 27,000 miles on a new head and machined block.  I need to look closer with a magnifying glass and take some photos.

A quick measurement shows the DNJ gasket is thickest, then Fel Pro, the Toyota gasket is thinnest.  The DNJ and Toyota look similar, but there is one significant difference.  They also are the slipper plate style.  The Fel Pro is not slipper plate.  There is debate on the slipper plate design and an issue with sealing.  The topic of head gaskets, especially on a bi-metal engine is a raging debate.

I got my new fuel injector connectors wired on numbers 2,3, and 4 to replace the cracked and broken 33 year old original connectors.    https://imgur.com/N9ygTTu

I have lots of cleaning of the top of that engine deck and tops of the pistons.  Then lots of solvent cleaning and compressed air before I can install the new head.

Ill post some more detailed findings with these 3 head gaskets later.

The one on top is the one from engnbldr's kit (I think it's a DNJ label)  the one in the middle is Toyota OEM, the one on the bottom is the Fel Pro PermaTorque.

The Slipper plate design in the DNJ and the Toyota have the metal layer on top facing the bottom of the head when installed.  The design is supposed to allow slippage on the gasket surface while the coefficient of expansion is about 1.5 time more for the allow head than the cast iron block.  But some experts say they are more difficult to get a good seal and the tend to leak.

https://imgur.com/f93JT1H

https://imgur.com/WzrjJHN

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 08:12:38 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 5445
  • Male Posts: 3,398
  • Member since May '07
    • emsvitil's album
    • Buy me a soda
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1904 on: May 24, 2019, 07:40:14 PM »
Which head gasket is which in your pictures?

What is slipper plate style?
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1905 on: May 24, 2019, 08:13:18 PM »
Which head gasket is which in your pictures?

What is slipper plate style?

Hey e..

The one on top is the one from engnbldr's kit (I think it's a DNJ label)  the one in the middle is Toyota OEM, the one on the bottom is the Fel Pro PermaTorque.

The Slipper plate design in the DNJ and the Toyota have the metal layer on top facing the bottom of the head when installed.  The design is supposed to allow slippage on the gasket surface while the coefficient of expansion is about 1.5 times more for the alloy head than the cast iron block.  Theoretically, the metal sheet is supposed to prevent the tearing of the gasket surface as the head expands and contracts.  But some experts say they are more difficult to get a good seal and they tend to leak.  I'm sure there is plenty of debate on this. I've read 1000's of posts on the discussion on head gaskets.

I'll post more about this later.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 08:52:29 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1906 on: May 25, 2019, 08:15:16 PM »
UPDATE:  MAY 25, 2019

HEAD GASKETS

I examined the DNJ failed head gasket and the new Fel Pro and Toyota OE.

Like I discovered when I did my version of examining the transmission input shaft seals, WOW I am shocked at what is being manufactured and how I can just examine it and see why the part failed, and how it is inferior to other manufacturers same replacement part.

The head gasket contained in the engnbldr rebuild kit, like the rocker cover gasket kit, is probably a Chinese version of a copy a questionable quality and design.  In my opinion, the head gasket visually appears to be inferior in design to Toyota and Fel Pro.  The DNJ gasket basically delaminated and allowed coolant to get into the #3 cylinder.  There is a separate ring that sits on top of the slipper plate and does not seal the very edge of the cylinder fire ring.  It can delaminate and allow combustion gases and coolant to leak into layers of the gasket and eventually into the combustion chamber.

On the Toyota and the Fel Pro, there is no separate ring.  The metal slipper plate is sealed with a 2-cylinder metal piece the wraps completely around cylinder 1 & 2, and 3 & 4 ring edge.  It cannot delaminate.

The Toyota gasket is about .052 thick. (new)
The FelPro gaskest is about .062 thick. (new)
The DNJ gasket is about. 066 thick (used)

I prefer the Toyota gasket because it is thinner and should not compress as much.  I assume thicker gaskets will have some affect on compression ratio.  It also has a sealer bead for the timing cover to bottom of head seal.

That is my unscientific evaluation.

My lesson learned.  Admittedly too late in my life!  When it comes to very important and more critical gaskets or seals (like the input shaft seal, rear crankshaft seal, head gasket, I will not compromise and buy a non-Toyota gasket or seal.  For me its absolutely not worth saving $10 or $50, have a failure and then have to rebuild something or take the time, sweat, and money to have to do a complete R&R for a premature failure.

Thats just my opinion it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 05:08:29 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1907 on: May 26, 2019, 04:58:54 AM »
If you are interested, here are two quotes from two "experts" on head gaskets, specifically discussing gaskets for bi-metal engines (alloy head on cast iron block) and the slipper plate design.  The two quotes have been clipped from two different public internet forums and are about 11 years apart. 

There a many discussions and comments on head gasket design, likes and dislikes, just like any other topic in the automotive realm.

https://imgur.com/JAAAQ3T  - a clip from of public internet forum - EB Ted from engnbldr.

https://imgur.com/m2VW02D  - a clip from a public internet forum -  Fel Pro Team member.

Any comments?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 5445
  • Male Posts: 3,398
  • Member since May '07
    • emsvitil's album
    • Buy me a soda
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1908 on: May 26, 2019, 05:19:38 AM »
How tight did you torque down your head?



 :qtip:


Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1909 on: May 26, 2019, 06:01:27 AM »
How tight did you torque down your head?



 :qtip:




Good question.  Tod at engnbldr recommended 63 lbs.  That's what I torqued to.  As you know, the Toy spec is 58 lbs.

Jim at 22RE Performance recommended 80 lbs on the OE gasket and ARP stud kit.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1910 on: Jun 02, 2019, 05:56:33 AM »
UPDATE:  June 2, 2019

SHORT VERSION:
   Had binding issues with ARP Studs.
   Installed ARP Studs.
   Mounted head with Toyota head gasket
   Torqued head down to 75 lbs.
   Ready to put engine back together.

LONG VERSION:

I had trouble with several of the ARP studs binding before fully seating in the block.

The ARP studs have rolled threads.  The threads on the bolts are also rolled.

After chasing every thread in the block, on the studs, on the old head bolts, I still had studs binding in the block before seating at the bottom.

I cleaned every hole in the block with carb and brake cleaner and blew them out with compressed air.  I chased every block thread hold, then a cleaned and blew them out again probably 3 to 4 times each.

The chaser spun into the threads in the block with zero resistance after several insertions and cleaning with brake cleaner and hit with compressed air.  The chaser on 4 of the 10 studs had some resistance by hand and 2 required a socket on the thread chaser nut.  The stud nuts spun on the studs with zero resistance.

I cleaned all the threads on the bolts and they spun into the block with no problem.

I could NOT figure out why the studs were binding up inside the block?

I tried the studs in different holes in the block and switching the studs.  I was able to get 8 of the studs screwed into the block with zero to slight resistance.  Most went in by hand.  Two of them bound up about 1/4 from seating.  I had to use a short allen wrench and they twisted in with way more resistance than they should have.

At one point I decided to just use the old bolts only 26,000 miles on them.

After sleeping on it, I ended up leaving the studs in and torqued down the head to 75 lbs.  Jim at 22REP recommended 80 lbs, but my torque wrench may not be perfectly calibrated, so I stopped at 75 lbs.  75 lbs on that head feels very high.  Considering the factory torque spec is 58 lbs, its interesting that ARP recommends 90, 22REP recommends 80 for ARP studs, and Tod at engnbldr recommended 63 lbs for new bolts.  The torque spec on a Chevy 350 cast head is 65 lbs.

So far Im not impressed the ARP Stud Kit.  One concern I have is if and when I want to remove the head, the studs will have to be removed.  I cannot get the head off with the studs in.  Removing those ARP studs after mileage on the engine may be a serious problem.  Just based upon removing the head bolts on heads in the past, I dont believe the allen socket and an allen wrench on the top of the studs will be strong enough to handle the amount torque it will most likely will take to break the studs loose.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

emsvitil

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 5445
  • Male Posts: 3,398
  • Member since May '07
    • emsvitil's album
    • Buy me a soda
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1911 on: Jun 02, 2019, 06:19:47 AM »
Did you have or test for binding on the original rebuild?

I'm thinking that if you had binding, you really didn't have enough torque on some of the bolts originally, and that would cause head gasket problems.....

Double nutting the studs to get them out may be the better way later....

Do you think the binding is really trapped air or oil?
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

cbeers

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2430
  • Posts: 207
  • Member since Jan '14
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1912 on: Jun 02, 2019, 07:00:05 AM »
hey Gnarly
another thing i do for these types of situations is use Qtips to clean the threads. spray your cleaner then spin the qtips around and repeat with new qtips until clean.
might be worth a shot? 
CB

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1913 on: Jun 02, 2019, 07:20:48 AM »
hey Gnarly
another thing i do for these types of situations is use Qtips to clean the threads. spray your cleaner then spin the qtips around and repeat with new qtips until clean.
might be worth a shot? 
CB


Hey CB,

I have never used a Q-tip to clean threads.  Like I said, I use solvent - carb cleaner, brake cleaner, paint thinner, lacquer thinner, acetone, or MEK.  I brush the threads with a wire brush, apply some solvent, then blow them off with compressed air, then run the chaser over the threads, clean with solvent again, and blow them off with compressed air.  Trust me... those threads were practically sterile!!

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jun 02, 2019, 02:43:01 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1914 on: Jun 02, 2019, 07:24:40 AM »
Hey e...

When I did the first rebuild, I cleaned the holes in the block and the threads on the new bolts really well.  I tested them by spinning them into the block by hand - no problems, no binding.  I believe the failed head gasket was just Chinese junk.

Trapped air... I'd be very surprised if those studs could trap air, but if that were true, then after seating the stud at the bottom of the hole, the air would be compressed out, right?  So then I should be able spin the stud out with little to no resistance, BUT they came out as hard as I torqued them in.

I did suspect that the ARP lubricant was an issue, so I cleaned it off and just sprayed the threads on the stud with silicone spray. Still got bind.


Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jun 02, 2019, 07:34:44 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Snowtoy

  • Online The 2K Group
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 726
  • Male Posts: 2,377
  • Member since Sep '03
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1915 on: Jun 02, 2019, 01:54:08 PM »
So far Im not impressed the ARP Stud Kit.  One concern I have is if and when I want to remove the head, the studs will have to be removed.  I cannot get the head off with the studs in..............

If it is similar to the 3.0, if/when you remove the head, removing the rear two studs should give you the ability to remove the head without needing to remove the other studs.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

EASYRYDERDANGER

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 1752
  • Male Posts: 206
  • Member since Jul '06
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1916 on: Jun 02, 2019, 02:26:29 PM »
Ive had zero issues with arp studs, installing and removing.  Multiple heads removals too...  torque to there spec.   Remember the torque load is on the stud...

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1917 on: Jun 02, 2019, 03:00:04 PM »
Ive had zero issues with arp studs, installing and removing.  Multiple heads removals too...  torque to there spec.   Remember the torque load is on the stud...

Well... that's good to know!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 3777
  • Male Posts: 3,147
  • Member since Jun '16
  • Marlin and I slid "The Sluice" Martinez Canyon
    • Buy me some coffee
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1918 on: Jun 02, 2019, 03:10:36 PM »
Well... I certainly tried to get the head over the top of the studs with the back two removed... still could not see how it would work.  The back of the head hits the firewall.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

EASYRYDERDANGER

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 1752
  • Male Posts: 206
  • Member since Jul '06
Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1919 on: Jun 02, 2019, 03:40:54 PM »
They have the allen in the end.   Cross thread is better than locktite...

 
 
 
 
 

Related Topics

3 Replies
2001 Views
Last post Dec 13, 2007, 04:08:02 PM
by 84pickup
4 Replies
2165 Views
Last post Feb 23, 2010, 05:57:24 PM
by topkicktech
8 Replies
2493 Views
Last post Jun 22, 2010, 02:37:06 PM
by gtoyonrocks
0 Replies
899 Views
Last post Feb 23, 2012, 03:48:38 AM
by b_sherwood3
9 Replies
1943 Views
Last post Jan 08, 2016, 02:03:22 PM
by emsvitil