Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 190954 times)

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Gnarly4X

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1800 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:33:01 PM »
your springs might be weak :heavy: and with such a short duration cam at 5k weak springs would cause the valves to float like bestgen said.

I can see it's possible, but I've "floated" valves before in other engines.  I have never detected valve float in any of the 22s I've owned.  I ran the sand dunes in my 85 22R at least 3 times, my 86 longbed 22RE automatic at least 2 times, and I was at 5,000 and 5,500 RPMs all day, and sometimes hit 6,000 RPMs.... never once did the engine misfire or act like a valve floated. My 1985 was a stock rebuilt head with a Toyota stock 22R cam.  I did cross-country Mexico through the giant sand dunes out to the beach, and ran it 5,000+ all the time.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1801 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:44:30 PM »
I can see it's possible, but I've "floated" valves before in other engines.  I have never detected valve float in any of the 22s I've owned.  I ran the sand dunes in my 85 22R at least 3 times, my 86 longbed 22RE automatic at least 2 times, and I was at 5,000 and 5,500 RPMs all day, and sometimes hit 6,000 RPMs.... never once did the engine misfire or act like a valve floated. My 1985 was a stock rebuilt head with a Toyota stock 22R cam.  I did cross-country Mexico through the giant sand dunes out to the beach, and ran it 5,000+ all the time.

Gnarls.
Just an FYI
That's way to high of RPM for this engine. It makes no extra power up there. You are just reving the :pokinit: out of it.
I don't think I have ever taken My currant engine past 4k rpm.
Look at You desk top dyno. power drops off before that hi of RPM.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
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cbeers

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1802 on: Feb 12, 2019, 05:49:11 PM »
Yes... supposedly all new.  I don't know what valve spring pressure are, or whether they are referred to as HD or heavy duty?

Gnarls.

Right and i didn't mean to suggest that they were made for higher revving just that they were at least new and not old and worn out.
Remember I have this setup so I'm watching.

I will say I don't rev my toyotas too much but who knows what I will do/need someday.  I do try to baby my vehicles though.

CB

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1803 on: Feb 12, 2019, 06:49:06 PM »
Just an FYI
That's way to high of RPM for this engine. It makes no extra power up there. You are just reving the :pokinit: out of it.
I don't think I have ever taken My currant engine past 4k rpm.
Look at You desk top dyno. power drops off before that hi of RPM.

I will run 4,000 rpm on mountain grades and only push to 4,500 rpm if it’s necessary to be able to hold the next gear.  I don’t think I have ever been to 5,000 rpm, but have been told there is a rev limiter up there somewhere.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1804 on: Feb 12, 2019, 07:58:16 PM »
If your hitting the rev limiter your doing something wrong or your name is Dingman.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1805 on: Feb 12, 2019, 08:03:30 PM »
Stock peak HP is at 4800

Redline is 5600 or 5800.   Never went high enough to hit a rev limiter.


I've held 5200 up hills towing a trailer...…..
Ed
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1806 on: Feb 13, 2019, 04:39:10 AM »
I realize what the numbers say about peak torque and HP, and peak RPMs.

I have always been an RPM-junky… since my early Chevy small block days!  It is funny to me how many times I’ve discussed these engines and RPMs and ridden in someone’s 22R/RE and noticed that the driver didn’t rev the engine to the RPMs that I do.  Sometimes they just lugged it around.  I took a young guy that had a really nice 85 22R in an Xtracab for a ride in my 85, he actually believed and said  “you are going to blow your engine!”, when I tach’d it through the gears to 5,000 RPMs through 3rd gear.

I am also somewhat of a “tweaker tuner” (like H8PVMNT), I always spend extra time to keep my engines well tuned.

I didn’t know that these engines have a “rev limiter”?

Yes, after 4,800 RPMs the torque curve is already dropping and the HP is flattening.

When I say 5,000 or 5,500, I don’t mean sustained.  I mean I’d hit that RPM and quickly shift or back off.  Like emsvitil said, I have driven my 22s at high RPM for 4 to 5 minutes, like climbing a steep grade at 4,000.  I have very rarely driven at over 5,000 for a sustained time.

I also ran my 22R at the Cinders here in Northern AZ… lots of 5,000+ RPMs.

Everyone’s experiences and driving styles can be different…

So, for my experience, if high RPMs on these engines (now 3 22s) was going to cause me to have an engine failure issue, I would have experienced it in 1986 with my first 22RE.

I may be wrong, and if someone out there has more experience please let me know, but if my current engine failure was caused by revving it to 5,000+, something is wrong with the parts, build, or machine work.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1807 on: Feb 13, 2019, 04:41:23 AM »
If your hitting the rev limiter your doing something wrong or your name is Dingman.

Dinger..... I'm your BRO!!  :gap:

Gnarls.  :driving:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1808 on: Feb 13, 2019, 08:00:38 AM »
Your other 22r engine were stock? With stock cam and pistons?
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1809 on: Feb 13, 2019, 10:44:12 AM »
I agree that the upgraded cam profile will change the efficiency of the stock springs, and valves will float earlier in the RPM range, this is a very soft aftermakret cam though. Oversized valves are heavier and will affect the rpm at which valves float too. My opinion is that the engine will usually stop revving when the valves float before the valves hit the pistons unless the clearance is very tight to begin with, or revved with no load. The 22re rev limiter is also quite low at around 5800rpms I believe? Engnbldr has built and sold thousands of heads like yours, it must be expected some people will buy these heads and run them for competition or mudding or whatever that will see sustained high revs and abuse. A margin of safety is built into them I am sure, if the machining is done correctly. If the engine ran well before the first high rpm pull, then ran like crap after that, it would be a logical cause, but I don't think that is the case. I believe it is a machining error(s). And while we are speculating, I'll even go on a limb and say that the block is fine and all the trouble is in the head. Get it off and send it out for inspection first.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1810 on: Feb 13, 2019, 06:16:54 PM »
Your other 22r engine were stock? With stock cam and pistons?


Yes.  Both - my first 1986 22RE and my 1985 22R.
« Last Edit: Feb 13, 2019, 06:55:39 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1811 on: Feb 13, 2019, 06:26:21 PM »
I agree that the upgraded cam profile will change the efficiency of the stock springs, and valves will float earlier in the RPM range, this is a very soft aftermakret cam though. Oversized valves are heavier and will affect the rpm at which valves float too. My opinion is that the engine will usually stop revving when the valves float before the valves hit the pistons unless the clearance is very tight to begin with, or revved with no load. The 22re rev limiter is also quite low at around 5800rpms I believe? Engnbldr has built and sold thousands of heads like yours, it must be expected some people will buy these heads and run them for competition or mudding or whatever that will see sustained high revs and abuse. A margin of safety is built into them I am sure, if the machining is done correctly. If the engine ran well before the first high rpm pull, then ran like crap after that, it would be a logical cause, but I don't think that is the case. I believe it is a machining error(s). And while we are speculating, I'll even go on a limb and say that the block is fine and all the trouble is in the head. Get it off and send it out for inspection first.

Hey G...

I agree with everything you said, however, I'm skeptical that the difference in the weight of the 1mm stainless steel valves will cause them to float at 5500 RPM, even if the springs were stock.

And I too think that I'm going to find something in the head/valves.  My gut keeps telling me its the length of the valve stems and/or the valve seats.

I will pull the head and get it into someone I trust can give me a quality inspection and diagnosis.

QUESTION:  Could the valves/guides, seals, seat have caused the 1 quart of oil burning in 600 miles.  I had not blow-by, no smoke at cold or warm start.  I have tach'd this engine up to 5,500 RPM at least a 12 times in 1st gear.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1812 on: Feb 13, 2019, 07:23:32 PM »
Here's my off-the-wall thinking....

According to the FSM, the valve length of the intake is: 4.468"
The exhaust is: 4.480"

That is .012" difference.

Is it possible that the valves were switched without being noticed?

Or... the valve stem length was wrong?

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1813 on: Feb 13, 2019, 07:28:38 PM »
Here's my off-the-wall thinking....

According to the FSM, the valve length of the intake is: 4.468"
The exhaust is: 4.480"

That is .012" difference.

Is it possible that the valves were switched without being noticed?

Or... the valve stem length was wrong?

Gnarls.
The valves are completely different sizes. Not possible
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1814 on: Feb 13, 2019, 07:41:02 PM »
The ignitions on these 22RE's sometimes don't show enough smoke, but might leave a residue on your tailgate/shell window.  One of my friends trucks was burning oil but the plugs looked clean. The valve seals were shot and the rings over 145k.  Found residue on his shell's window and did a teardown/rebuild. :burnout:
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Gillesdetrail

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1815 on: Feb 14, 2019, 03:42:42 AM »
Hey G...

I agree with everything you said, however, I'm skeptical that the difference in the weight of the 1mm stainless steel valves will cause them to float at 5500 RPM, even if the springs were stock.

And I too think that I'm going to find something in the head/valves.  My gut keeps telling me its the length of the valve stems and/or the valve seats.

I will pull the head and get it into someone I trust can give me a quality inspection and diagnosis.

QUESTION:  Could the valves/guides, seals, seat have caused the 1 quart of oil burning in 600 miles.  I had not blow-by, no smoke at cold or warm start.  I have tach'd this engine up to 5,500 RPM at least a 12 times in 1st gear.

Gnarls.

I also don't think the oversized valves and 261c cam will float the valves at 5500rpms, but oversized valves and more agressive ramp angles will afect the rpms at which the valves float. I also don't think it has to do with the length of the valves, as people have put 22r valves in 20r heads for decades, and apparently they are longer and will mess the rocker geometry but will not affect oil consumption or cause immediate damage.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1816 on: Feb 14, 2019, 04:08:45 AM »
Are the valve seals on there?  Some times complicated problems are the stupidest thing you can think of.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1817 on: Feb 14, 2019, 04:46:11 AM »
Are the valve seals on there?  Some times complicated problems are the stupidest thing you can think of.



Hey H...

Great question! 

I checked the seals when I first opened up the box from engnbldr.  When I pulled the rocker cover off after this last misfire I looked for the seals.... I see some light blue thingies on all 8 valve stems! :thumbs:

Gnarls. :gap:




« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2019, 06:26:22 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1818 on: Feb 14, 2019, 07:02:58 PM »
I thought valve stem seals were black thingies...….
Ed
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1819 on: Feb 15, 2019, 03:13:18 AM »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1820 on: Feb 15, 2019, 03:21:38 AM »
Pulling the head on 22RE is a pain in the arse!!  :smack:

By the time I get the head off, I’m only a couple hours away from pulling the engine.  :disturbed:

I have to get my mind into this… I am not looking forward to it.  But as bgen and H8PVMNT say…. “Less talk and more action”…. Gitter done!!  :blah:

Gnarls   :willynilly:
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2019, 03:30:27 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1821 on: Feb 15, 2019, 03:26:06 AM »
There's a part of me that wants to convert this engine to a 22R when I rebuild it, or have a long block rebuilt :yesnod:

I'm interested in reading about any comments, experiences with a 22RE to 22R conversion, and any other thoughts.  :D

Thank you.

Gnarls. :gap:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1822 on: Feb 15, 2019, 05:20:29 AM »
...I'm skeptical that the difference in the weight of the 1mm stainless steel valves will cause them to float at 5500 RPM, even if the springs were stock.

I think you're making an assumption there. In my experience, assumptions are defined as things that prove to be false after costing you large amounts of time, money, and tears. Until you measure, calculate, or verify every one and find the one that was wrong.

Sorry to hear your engine rebuild went west like this. With all this experience, the next one will probably take you a couple weeks and run like a top  :thumbs:

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1823 on: Feb 15, 2019, 05:51:47 AM »
Well you know I have grown to love carb.  If I was going to do that I would probably try to get ahold of a carb wiring harness from another truck of similar era, then you are plug and play.  Not that you can't rig it up off your efi harness but it would be a lot cleaner with the correct harness.  No big deal other than that except changing your in tank fuel pump to a siphon or using a regulator on it for carb appropriate psi.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1824 on: Feb 16, 2019, 06:06:22 AM »
I think you're making an assumption there. In my experience, assumptions are defined as things that prove to be false after costing you large amounts of time, money, and tears. Until you measure, calculate, or verify every one and find the one that was wrong.

Sorry to hear your engine rebuild went west like this. With all this experience, the next one will probably take you a couple weeks and run like a top  :thumbs:

Hi L...

Yeah, my comment is technically an "assumption"..... based upon about 32 years of being around these engines and trucks.  If there was a "valve float" issue, we would have read about it by now.  Since this engnbldr head comes with a single valve spring and stainless steel valves, I assume that the extra weight of the stainless steel over steel valves does not require the higher pressure dual spring valve spring.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1825 on: Feb 16, 2019, 08:58:38 AM »
Pull that head! Pull that head!   Seriously, we all just speculating until you do some foot work.  Im really curious! Hurry, its the weekend.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1826 on: Feb 16, 2019, 09:47:39 AM »
Pull that head! Pull that head!   Seriously, we all just speculating until you do some foot work.  Im really curious! Hurry, its the weekend.
I second this! Get off Your ass and pull the head! 3 hrs max and We can all know answer to what happened. I am still thinking valves hit pistons with Your drag race rpms.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

H8PVMNT

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1827 on: Feb 16, 2019, 09:50:35 AM »
Yeah do it!  Do it!  Do it! Do it!
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
– Steve McQueen

"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1828 on: Feb 18, 2019, 02:45:55 AM »
Yeah do it!  Do it!  Do it! Do it!

I have the truck on jack stands.   :thumbs:

I was going to start wrenching on the engine this past week end, but had a family emergency and could not get to it.  :smack:

I am planning on pulling the head by this Saturday afternoon.  :biggthumpup:

I am as curious and want to know what happened as much as anyone else!  :inthedark:

Gnarls.  :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1829 on: Feb 18, 2019, 02:55:47 AM »
..... I am still thinking valves hit pistons with Your drag race rpms.

So.... are saying that IF the engine had some valve "float" at my "drag race" 5,500 RPMs, the floating valve(s) would contact the top of the piston?  :smack:

This interesting because I believe the 261C cam profile has one of the higher overlap (6.2 degrees) of the cams I have recorded or tested.

QUESTION:  Could excessive camshaft overlap  (significantly greater than a stock cam profile) be more likely to cause valve float, and potentially cause valve to piston interference?

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2019, 03:10:46 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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