Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 190333 times)

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Gnarly4X

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1020 on: Dec 05, 2017, 01:57:23 AM »
i agree with bestgen, those valve cover bolts are inch/lbs torque, most people over tighten them, and that first pic was an excellent example of over tightened valve cover nuts, in most cases, when over tightened, rockers hit on valve cover  :twocents:

Hi OVRAROK,

Well... I hope you are right!!  I'd much rather be stupid and have the noise gone, than be a skeptic and find out the grommets are poor quality or defective, and the noise is still there!!  :willynilly:

When I first noticed the rubber material split, I immediately thought... Gnarls... YOU DUMMY.. YOU OVER-TIGHTENED THE NUTS!!... BUT... then with all the debate and discussion about the quality or lack of with some of the aftermarket parts being used by some of us here, I suspected possibly "bad" parts.   :dunno:

In my past, the grommets have always worked for multiple R&Rs of the cover over many months.  :yesnod:

I am still wondering if the rubber vulcanizing process during manufacturing was inadequate, or the rubber material is too soft.  The ones I got from engnbldr are more "squishy" than the new Beck Arnley ones I just received. Perhaps the more squishy ones are a better design... I don't know?  :dunno:

EDIT:  Adding some weird thinking... So if the soft rubber grommets are too soft, and as I tighten the nuts, the rubber compresses and I don't "feel" the spec'd torque amount, so I keep tighening.  With the stiffer style grommets, they don't compress and when tightening the nuts, I can "feel" them getting tight against the cover and nuts.  Does that make sense?

I appreciate your input! :beerchug:

Gnarls. :spin:
« Last Edit: Dec 05, 2017, 02:12:43 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1021 on: Dec 05, 2017, 11:30:46 AM »
EDIT:  Adding some weird thinking... So if the soft rubber grommets are too soft, and as I tighten the nuts, the rubber compresses and I don't "feel" the spec'd torque amount, so I keep tighening.  With the stiffer style grommets, they don't compress and when tightening the nuts, I can "feel" them getting tight against the cover and nuts.  Does that make sense?

I'm sort of jumping into this discussion without reading everything, but it sounds like the speculation is that you're getting noise because you over tightened some bolts that eliminated the required clearance with internal parts.  My thought while reading some of the posts was what I think you're getting at here.  If the grommets failed while being tightened they would allow more compression and you wouldn't be able to achieve the same torque with the expect cover clearance.

Maybe Chris is correct for what's causing the noise, but instead of it being an issue of over tightening the bolts is an issue of the grommets failing as they were tightened.
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1022 on: Dec 05, 2017, 04:11:20 PM »
I'm sort of jumping into this discussion without reading everything, but it sounds like the speculation is that you're getting noise because you over tightened some bolts that eliminated the required clearance with internal parts.  My thought while reading some of the posts was what I think you're getting at here.  If the grommets failed while being tightened they would allow more compression and you wouldn't be able to achieve the same torque with the expect cover clearance.

Maybe Chris is correct for what's causing the noise, but instead of it being an issue of over tightening the bolts is an issue of the grommets failing as they were tightened.


Hi blackdiamond,

The “speculation” is from bgen.  Until he mentioned it, I did not think it sounds like that issue.

To catch you up….

At about 200 miles on the break-in I was continuing to attempting to diagnose the sound – deeper than a rocker tick, more like a very light knock.  BUT.. the input shaft seal on the tranny was leaking badly.  The rear diff and the power steering gear box are both leaking.

So… I decided to stop and fix those and then get back to figuring out what the noise is. 

I’ve been “listening” to engines and taught by my dad (who was a trained auto mechanic) about sounds and vibrations, since I was old enough to speak in sentences.  After spending 1000s of dollars rebuilding this engine and then have a noise that doesn’t sound right makes me very unhappy.  At this point, I cannot determine for sure what it is.  I am very much hoping bgen is correct, and I somehow over-tightened the cover and inside top of the cover is contacting the rocker rack.

I may be overly analyzing this, but I don’t think so.  I have several thoughts on what it might be and I have a short list of tests I will do when I can drive it.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1023 on: Dec 05, 2017, 06:17:11 PM »
I did that myself once and didnt realize i had done it,  valve adjusters were tapping on the inside of the cover.  Hopefully thats it but if not I would drop the pan and check the rod bearings just to be sure.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1024 on: Dec 06, 2017, 03:37:07 AM »
I did that myself once and didnt realize i had done it,  valve adjusters were tapping on the inside of the cover.  Hopefully thats it but if not I would drop the pan and check the rod bearings just to be sure.


I'm hoping its in the top end.

The sound frequency is a piston speed, not cam speed, so that's why I got concerned immediately, and did not consider the rockers.

If after I replace the cover gasket and grommets and get the valve lash adjusted again, and I can drive it, I will let a couple of my engine builder friends listen to it to get more opinions.

Thank you for the input.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1025 on: Dec 09, 2017, 07:12:42 PM »
UPDATE:  12-09-2017

I installed the shifters and hooked up the exhaust pipe today.  I had trickled charged the battery. I was surprised how quickly it started up after sitting for weeks.  At the car wash, I degreased the power steering gear box and the rear diff… need fix the leaks.

Tomorrow I will re-adjust the valve lash, install the new rocker cover gasket and grommets.  I will be very careful NOT to over-tighten the acorn nuts.

The soft knock I’m hearing is still there so I’ll do a test to see if the sound changes when I pull the spark plug **WIRES** one at time with engine warm and idling.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Dec 10, 2017, 02:51:34 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1026 on: Dec 09, 2017, 09:50:59 PM »
I’ll do a test to see if the sound changes when I pull the spark plugs one at time with engine warm and idling.

If you do that, the sound will definitely change. it will go from normal motor with exhaust to open header LOL

:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1027 on: Dec 10, 2017, 02:50:28 AM »
If you do that, the sound will definitely change. it will go from normal motor with exhaust to open header LOL



Haahahhahahah.... YES....   :bowdown: you are right!!!

Sorry.. I meant spark plug "wires"....   :smack:

I will just pull of the spark plug WIRES... LOL.  :gap:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1028 on: Dec 10, 2017, 03:25:15 PM »
UPDATE 12-10-17

I re-adjusted the valve lash after engine at norm operating temp.

A couple rockers were loose and couple were tight, by just a ½ to 1 thousandths.  I installed the new Beck Arnley grommets and new gasket.  I like the way it fits very snuggly in the groove of the cover.

Based on andykrow’s experience with the same cam and valve lash, I did feel a better throttle response and it pulls hard from off idle through 5,000 in 1st gear.  It pulls in 2nd gear but torque is less at about 4500.  So far this is a torquey cam profile and doesn’t have much after 5,000 RPM.  It pulls hard from about 2,000 to 3500.

The light knock is gone.  The rocker tick seems a little louder than usual, but it could be that I am over analyzing.

The rock tick seems to be balanced and sounds very close the same for each cylinder.  When I probe the top of the cover with my stethoscope probe, I can hear each rocker.  Number 4 is still has a tad louder tick.  Several lobes still have not completely shined up.  I need more time on this engine.

I have an engine oil leak right at the bottom of the bell housing.  Probably the rear main seal or the seal housing gasket!!!!  I will need some serious psychotropic drugs and about 5 days in a padded cell if I have to drop the tranny again!!!  Why would a brand new seal and gasket leak?

I’m driving it to work tomorrow.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Dec 10, 2017, 03:44:26 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1029 on: Dec 10, 2017, 03:37:42 PM »
Maybe the leak was the rear half-moon plug.........
Ed
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1030 on: Dec 10, 2017, 03:47:10 PM »
Maybe the leak was the rear half-moon plug.........

That I did not check.  I will check it.  That would be a miraculous discovery!

I quit working it without REALLY checking out the source of the engine oil leak.

Thank you.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1031 on: Dec 10, 2017, 06:09:40 PM »
I usually start with the #4 valve because it's the hardest to get at and the one you get to when the engine is coolest, to get the quietest adjustment possible on that one.  With all the valve cover stuff you've been doing your oil leak, like emsvitil said, is most likely the half moon.  Lousy luck on those grommets.  :smack:
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1032 on: Dec 10, 2017, 06:51:35 PM »
I usually start with the #4 valve because it's the hardest to get at and the one you get to when the engine is coolest, to get the quietest adjustment possible on that one.  With all the valve cover stuff you've been doing your oil leak, like emsvitil said, is most likely the half moon.  Lousy luck on those grommets.  :smack:

I'll post a photo of the area I see oil tomorrow.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1033 on: Dec 11, 2017, 01:56:53 AM »
Here's the oil leak.  It is dripping on both sides of the where the bell housing mates with the back of the block.  It doesn't look like the oil is dripping from the little rectangle slot in the very center bottom of the bell housing.

I'll check the half moon at the back of head.  If the leak is NOT the crank seal or seal housing, the happiness that I will feel will be HUGE!

https://imgur.com/a108sRE

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1034 on: Dec 11, 2017, 02:15:19 AM »
I usually start with the #4 valve because it's the hardest to get at and the one you get to when the engine is coolest, to get the quietest adjustment possible on that one.  With all the valve cover stuff you've been doing your oil leak, like emsvitil said, is most likely the half moon.  Lousy luck on those grommets.  :smack:

This is a good idea.

The over-tightening of the rocker cover is difficult for me to understand.  First, the cover would have to deflect. It is cast, its not going to deflect or bend very much if at all.  The force necessary to actually pull up and bend the rocker rack by the studs in the rack would have to be very great.  So, I don't think the noise was the rockers contacting the top of the rocker rack.... but I know it's been said that it can happen.  :dunno:

I got a feeling that the noise (sounds like louder than normal rocker tick) is actually the cam profile, the cam may be causing a little more valve noise?  Or slightly worn rockers or shafts allowing the rockers to clatter?  :dunno:

I know from experience that the valve lash setting can have a big affect on the sound of rockers, as well as throttle response, at least for two cam profiles - Toyota stock and the 261C. :gap:

OR.... possibly the head, valves, cam, rockers just need more break-in time? :dunno:

Gnarls. :blah:
.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1035 on: Dec 11, 2017, 02:21:11 AM »
The cover doesn't bend or deflect when you overtighten.

When you overtighten, you squash the perimeter seal and the whole rocker cover is closer to the rocker arms.

This could also deform the half moon plugs a little.     I seal the halfmoon plugs with RTV or my favorite, hylomar.
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1036 on: Dec 11, 2017, 02:37:44 AM »
The cover doesn't bend or deflect when you overtighten.

When you overtighten, you squash the perimeter seal and the whole rocker cover is closer to the rocker arms.


That makes sense if it were true.  HOWEVER... it means that Toyota designed the cover to rockers distance to a ridiculously tight tolerance.  Someone will have to show me that the cover, without the rubber seal gasket, just sitting on the head, the inside top of the cover baffles will contact the rockers.  The distance, or gap between the bottom of the cover and the head deck with a new gasket, grommets, and acorn nuts properly torqued to spec is about .020".. just visual guess.  When I pulled the cover, I looked carefully at the baffles inside the cover... no evidence of anything touching it.

The next time I have the cover off, I will carefully mic the distance between the base of the cover (gasket grove) and the highest point from the head deck to the rockers.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Dec 11, 2017, 02:45:23 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1037 on: Dec 11, 2017, 07:26:53 AM »
Maybe just be happy that the noise is gone and You don't have an engine problem.  :therethere:
The rockers make noise (tick) this perfectly normal on a 22re.
Very happy to hear that the correctly tightened valve cover corrected your issue. Sorry to hear about the rear main seal leak. Did You use the engine builder rear main seal and rear main plate gasket.  :shake_head: I have to say it again   :attention: "Don't use the engine builder gasket set"
I sure hope You didn't use their timing cover gaskets. If so You can expect that to be the next leak.  :slap:
Hang in there Gnarly.....
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1038 on: Dec 11, 2017, 10:30:06 AM »
... Did You use the engine builder rear main seal and rear main plate gasket.  :shake_head: I have to say it again   :attention: "Don't use the engine builder gasket set"
I sure hope You didn't use their timing cover gaskets. If so You can expect that to be the next leak.  :slap:
Hang in there Gnarly.....


Hey bgen,

I don't want to believe the quality issue with the gaskets and seals from engnbldr.

If it IS the seal or the gasket, I will be extremely upset to have to drop the tranny again! If the leak is due to the quality or defective seal or seal housing gasket, I will consider having a very
serious talk with Tod at engnbldr!
 
Thank you for your continued support!

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1039 on: Dec 11, 2017, 06:06:05 PM »
UPDATE 12-11-17 PM

The rear half moon plug looks like it is leaking. 

In all my years owning and working on these 22s, I don’t recall having a half moon leak.  I usually coat it with a Permatex RTV.  When I replaced the cover gasket and the grommets, I did not replace the ½ moons because I didn’t think the rear one was leaking and I know the front one was not leaking - only been in for 200+ miles.  I will remove the cover and replace the ½ moons.  If that stops the oil leak, I will be extremely happy.  I will also examine and measure the half moons for dimensions and see if I can see any significant differences.

After comparing the grommets from the kit I ordered from engnbldr as my initial rebuild package, to the recent ones I just bought from Rock Auto, the Beck Arnley brand, there is a VERY obvious difference in their construction.  So… could the cover formed gasket and the half moons be that different as well.  And, I noticed that the blue rubber cover gasket from, I believe DNJ, did not fit as snuggly in its grove in the cover.  :)bestgen4runner has repeatedly and emphatically stated that there is a quality issue with the gasket kit being supplied by engnbldr.  As much as I do not want to believe it, I may be experiencing the quality issue :)bestgen4runner has experienced.

By the way, I do not feel :)bestgen4runner is making up his obvious professional experiences and his opinions, I just had to experience it for myself to accept the reality…. I’m always a skeptic.

Based upon the cost, time, and effort to properly rebuild an engine, and then having leaks or premature seal and gasket failures caused by bad quality parts, at this point going forward I will only buy the highest quality name brand gaskets or Toyota dealer products to install in my truck.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1040 on: Dec 11, 2017, 06:09:40 PM »
Maybe the leak was the rear half-moon plug.........

emsvital,

You da man!!  THANK YOU for asking about this!  :beerchug:

Gnarls. :disturbed:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1041 on: Dec 11, 2017, 06:12:19 PM »
Everyone always talks about half moons leaking. I'm with you in that I've never had a leaky half moon. Maybe you could pick up those aluminum half moons from 22RE Performance?
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1042 on: Dec 11, 2017, 06:16:02 PM »
Everyone always talks about half moons leaking. I'm with you in that I've never had a leaky half moon. Maybe you could pick up those aluminum half moons from 22RE Performance?


Well... I'm open to whatever works.. the cost is NOTHING when I get an oil leak... I HATE LEAKS!!

I would like to ask Jim at 22RE Performance why they are selling an alloy replacement to the rubber ones... I have to guess that they know something I do not.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1043 on: Dec 11, 2017, 06:17:06 PM »

Well... I'm open to whatever works.. the cost is NOTHING when I get an oil leak... I HATE LEAKS!!

I would like to ask Jim at 22RE Performance why they are selling an alloy replacement to the rubber ones... I have to guess that they know something I do not.

Gnarls.



Because they apparently don't leak and are reusable
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1044 on: Dec 11, 2017, 06:33:50 PM »
Glad to hear it was nothing worse than that... It would be bad to rebuild an engine only to find a leaky rear main.

Here's to another several hundred thousand miles on your new engine...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1045 on: Dec 11, 2017, 06:36:44 PM »
Glad to hear it was nothing worse than that... It would be bad to rebuild an engine only to find a leaky rear main.

Here's to another several hundred thousand miles on your new engine...

Thank you Lewis!  :beerchug:

Gnarls.  :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1046 on: Dec 11, 2017, 06:37:44 PM »
Because they apparently don't leak and are reusable

Well... I'd like to know whose head they used to measure and manufacturer his half moons.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2017, 01:09:47 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1047 on: Dec 12, 2017, 01:41:56 AM »
man, that's great you didn't have to pull the tranny again. Have you listened to the injectors themselves on your stethoscope? My 92 seems to have way louder injectors than my 85 had. I thought I had drivetrain noise and tried chasing it down for quite a while until I decided to listen to the injectors themselves and they tick  loud

Hey liveoak,

Yes, as a matter of fact I have listened to the injectors.  They batch fire and as I remember fire twice, so their "tick" frequency is way faster sounding than rocker tick.  BUT, they do contribute to the whole "tick" sound on these engines.

And, I also have chased many ticks.. the 22R mechanical fuel pump, exhaust leaks, timing chain slapping against the t-c cover, injectors, and the rockers.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1048 on: Dec 12, 2017, 05:13:21 AM »
3rz comes factory with aluminum half moons. Aftermarket company probably saw that and went with it.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1049 on: Dec 12, 2017, 12:05:09 PM »
3rz comes factory with aluminum half moons. Aftermarket company probably saw that and went with it.
Bingo! Improvement in technology that the 22re did not receive.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

 
 
 
 
 

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