Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild

[benjyman]

You guys are too advanced for me I used to love my 22RE but that's about all I knew about it was that I loved it you guys are confusing me with all your high-tech chatter

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[blackdiamond]

Is anyone running their 20R, 22R, or 22RE at a higher compression ratio than stock? Why or why not?  On a compression test, what lbs. of compression do you get? What octane rating are you burning?

Gnarls.

I am certain that mine is running a slightly higher compression ratio due to the block being significantly decked when it was rebuilt.  I had been running premium in it until just prior to the last Moab trip and didn't notice a different when dropping to regular grade fuel.  I've recently did a tune-up and installed new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor.  When it was in for the rear axle replacement I had my mechanic check the timing since he had it and it was set between 0 and 2 degrees.  He initially set it at the standard 5 degrees and it was pinging so it's currently at 3 degrees and seem ok.  The idle is a lot more rough when warmed up and I seem to have lost a little power overall but it runs really smoothly.  I am considering going back to premium and seeing how far I can advance the timing.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I am certain that mine is running a slightly higher compression ratio due to the block being significantly decked when it was rebuilt.  I had been running premium in it until just prior to the last Moab trip and didn't notice a different when dropping to regular grade fuel.  I've recently did a tune-up and installed new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor.  When it was in for the rear axle replacement I had my mechanic check the timing since he had it and it was set between 0 and 2 degrees.  He initially set it at the standard 5 degrees and it was pinging so it's currently at 3 degrees and seem ok.  The idle is a lot more rough when warmed up and I seem to have lost a little power overall but it runs really smoothly.  I am considering going back to premium and seeing how far I can advance the timing.

OK, thanks for the commentary.  Yeah.. you don't want it pinging!

Do you remember how much the block was decked?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

You guys are too advanced for me I used to love my 22RE but that's about all I knew about it was that I loved it you guys are confusing me with all your high-tech chatter

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Hey Benjyman,

I'm not trying to confuse anyone.  But, as I rebuild this engine I have questions about some things and I am trying to anticipate any issues, as well as pick the brains of the guys here that have way more experience than I do.

The deck on this block was cleaned to only about .006" off during machining, but I'm curious how much it will raise the compression, which will be slightly. I'm hoping to be able to burn 87 Octane gas and avoid any ignition timing issue with pinging or detonation. 

Gnarls.

[benjyman]

OK I was just playing what is the deck

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[H8PVMNT]

OK I was just playing what is the deck

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Top of the engine block, the surface the head bolts to.

[benjyman]

Cool cool. Sorry for side busting on your convo with some silly stupid shizz.


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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Cool cool. Sorry for side busting on your convo with some silly stupid shizz.


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LOL.... Shizzz... yeah lots of that here! 

Textual communications is interesting.  Conceptual semantics plays a big role.  And, of course, tone, humor, and intent are all variables that are generally interpreted.

Fun stuff being on forum, especially an automotive forum. 

Gnarls.

[blackdiamond]

OK, thanks for the commentary.  Yeah.. you don't want it pinging!

Do you remember how much the block was decked?

Gnarls.

I have no idea how much it was decked. I didn't do the build.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Here’s some interesting results after playing with my desktop dyno….

Again, just looking at options to increase power in a stock 22.  I used the 22R specs.

See the attached Excel sheet. Please let me know if you cannot download and view it.

I’ve been told by a reputable 22RE engine expert that raising the compression to 10:1 in 22RE will require a change in the Engine Management System (e.g. MegaSquirt), and obviously running a higher fuel octane, and carefully adjusting ignition timing.

At a ˝ pound increase in compression over stock, I believe the stock injectors and ECU will work fine.  You would have to test and carefully adjust the ignition timing and go to 89 or higher octane fuel.

Depending upon how you increased the compression, as H8PVMNT has suggested, an adjustable cam timing gear would be a good idea.

Any comments?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[emsvitil]

Stock compression ratio is 9.4

Going to 9.5 shouldn't increase that much.


There is a knock sensor, so timing should be fine.

I run my stock 86 3 degrees advanced on 87.

So adjusting initial timing and octane increase (if necessary) should handle 10:1


You should be able to get some nice squish too,   so that will help (assuming you're decking block to get compression increase)

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Stock compression ratio is 9.4

Going to 9.5 shouldn't increase that much.


There is a knock sensor, so timing should be fine.

I run my stock 86 3 degrees advanced on 87.

So adjusting initial timing and octane increase (if necessary) should handle 10:1


You should be able to get some nice squish too,   so that will help (assuming you're decking block to get compression increase)

Hi emsvitil,

Yeah.. I used 9.0:1 in my dyno specs because that is what I have always thought the 22RE was rated.  I have seen different compression ratio numbers. With my stock spec'd engbldr head with OS valves, plus my block deck was cleaned about .006", my compression ratio - best guess- will be between 9.2 and 9.4.

I haven't seen an official compression ratio specification anywhere.  LCE sells the Keith Black pistons that will supposedly take a stock 22 to 9.7:1.  If the stock compression ratio is 9.4, then it seems silly to spend money to only increase by 3/10th.  I could get to 9.7 by decking the head and installing an adjustable cam gear - which I still may buy.

Gnarls.

[79coyotefrg]

Hey Benjyman,

I'm not trying to confuse anyone.  But, as I rebuild this engine I have questions about some things and I am trying to anticipate any issues, as well as pick the brains of the guys here that have way more experience than I do.

The deck on this block was cleaned to only about .006" off during machining, but I'm curious how much it will raise the compression, which will be slightly. I'm hoping to be able to burn 87 Octane gas and avoid any ignition timing issue with pinging or detonation. 

Gnarls.

.006 might raise the cr a tenth.  so say its 9.5 before it might be 9.6 now. 
My .060 over block engine had the deck cleaned .005 and the head cleaned .004 and the compression ratio calculated to be 9.7 with the timing retarded a little from the stock 8* to 5* I could pull any load with 87 octane.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

.006 might raise the cr a tenth.  so say its 9.5 before it might be 9.6 now. 
My .060 over block engine had the deck cleaned .005 and the head cleaned .004 and the compression ratio calculated to be 9.7 with the timing retarded a little from the stock 8* to 5* I could pull any load with 87 octane.

Here's my thinking...
If I could start over on this rebuild. I would consider going .060" over on the bore and raising the compression to 9.7 by milling the head + the block deck clean.  Even if I had to burn 89 octane or higher, it's only about $14.00 more a month on my averge fuel cost.

To get that extra torque, I think it would be worth it.  But... I've gotten different opinions on if its worth it or would make that much difference in power gain.

Any other thoughts...?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

More delay...

T-case shifter plate - W56B

Do I need to get the two paper gaskets or can I use Ultra Black?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

[helipilot77]

I think you are at the point where making more power mods from a 22-r no longer produce the kind of gains that you can feel. The kind of additional you want would likely cost more than it's worth and an engine swap begins to be the best way to get more power. Remember that a 3-RZ, 5-VZ, 2-JZ, 1-KZ and 1-UZ each of these new generation "Z" motors make way more power and will all net you equal or better fuel economy. The process of installing one of these motors can be complicated and expensive but it will net you the kind of factory reliability that toyota built into them. If I were to advise you I would say drive the motor that you have built. Don't get to caught up in trying to get more power out of it. I would guess that as it is you have a carefully built motor that will give you enough power for what you need to have fun with it. I have seen too many times where people get caught up in the chase for more performance and they end up with a high dollar project that sits in pieces in the garage and when their friends go out wheeling they can't because their junk is in pieces.

[OTO Phil]

More delay...

T-case shifter plate - W56B

Do I need to get the two paper gaskets or can I use Ultra Black?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

I'd probably use some permatex black, lightly coating a new gasket from my buddy at the dealership

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I think you are at the point where making more power mods from a 22-r no longer produce the kind of gains that you can feel. .... I have seen too many times where people get caught up in the chase for more performance ..

Hi helipilot77,

Yeah.. I agree we can get a little crazy with the subject of tweaking more power out of 22.  I've read thousands of posts over the years on the subject.  I've done engine swaps in my past and they were a lot of work and required fabricating adapter parts.  If I were going to get real serious about swapping an engine in this truck, I would become a sinner and build a 1963 Buick 215 aluminum block V-8 - IF I could get it to pass emissions.

For this rebuild I think the machining of the block and head at the machine shop, it probably would not cost much more to bore it to .060" over, deck the head a few thousandths, and buy an adjustable timing gear.

I DO think the gain torque would be worth it.... but it's all speculation right now.

It's all fun.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I'd probably use some permatex black, lightly coating a new gasket from my buddy at the dealership

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I was afraid someone would say "new gaskets".  I'll check my local dealership on Monday.

Thank you.

Gnarls.

[OTO Phil]

Hahaha... Yeah i know the feeling.. but personally, I'd like to know that i put new gaskets in rather than hope for the best without.. $.02

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I rolled the truck out of the garage after 3 years and 8 months.  I degreased the engine bay.  It felt good to wash off the dust and grease spots.

After I get my big muscular neighbor to help me push it up the driveway and back into the garage, then I can drop that 1300 HP engine I just rebuilt and start connecting stuff back up!

I still have to order my Doug Thorley header, and I should buy new clutch kit.  And I'm think'n about an adjustable cam gear...... and I'm sure there's a few more things that will make a ding on my debit card.

Gnarls.

[benjyman]

That sounds exciting. Good days ahead.

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[Gnarly4X [OP]]

That sounds exciting. Good days ahead.

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Thank you benjyman....

Yes, I'm looking forward to getting my truck back on, engine broken in well, then I'm going splurge for some chassis dyno testing just for poops 'n chuckles! 


My project is moving slower than I expected.   

The garage is 100d F and I procrastinate way more than I should.  I under estimated the cost and how many parts I would have to replace.  My rebuild kitty is tapped out, so I'm saving up every week for my next purchases.

I have cut out almost all of my vices and I'm in frugal mode, so I may to work some OT! 

Gnarls.

[79coyotefrg]

Here's my thinking...
If I could start over on this rebuild. I would consider going .060" over on the bore and raising the compression to 9.7 by milling the head + the block deck clean.  Even if I had to burn 89 octane or higher, it's only about $14.00 more a month on my averge fuel cost.

To get that extra torque, I think it would be worth it.  But... I've gotten different opinions on if its worth it or would make that much difference in power gain.

Any other thoughts...?

Gnarls.

nah, wait ten years or 200,000 miles and then bore it to .060

[79coyotefrg]

I think you are at the point where making more power mods from a 22-r no longer produce the kind of gains that you can feel. The kind of additional you want would likely cost more than it's worth and an engine swap begins to be the best way to get more power. Remember that a 3-RZ, 5-VZ, 2-JZ, 1-KZ and 1-UZ each of these new generation "Z" motors make way more power and will all net you equal or better fuel economy. The process of installing one of these motors can be complicated and expensive but it will net you the kind of factory reliability that toyota built into them. If I were to advise you I would say drive the motor that you have built. Don't get to caught up in trying to get more power out of it. I would guess that as it is you have a carefully built motor that will give you enough power for what you need to have fun with it. I have seen too many times where people get caught up in the chase for more performance and they end up with a high dollar project that sits in pieces in the garage and when their friends go out wheeling they can't because their junk is in pieces.

just for shits and giggles I'm about to drop in that 85 22R i got through a friend of a friend BUT I am putting the header on it, my old intake and weber and my 1200 Marlin clutch.  That way I can very plainly see how much power the old motor had.

Heli, you know BigMike installed that 3rz in his 80 and it made 150 hp as it should BUT it still got like 16-17 mpg.   Thats the mileage my old 060 22R made. 

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

nah, wait ten years or 200,000 miles and then bore it to .060

Oooohhhhhh KKKKKKKKkkk.... you talked in me into it. 

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

... BUT it still got like 16-17 mpg.   Thats the mileage my old 060 22R made. 

Believe it or not... .in 1988, driving back from Tucson to Phoenix in my first 1986 22RE automatic, longbed, I drove with the AC off at about average 65 MPH and I got 28.3 MPH!!

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

Discussing gas mileage..... What should I expect to get with my engine rebuild? 

Any guesses or predictions?  It's a 5-speed and I don't baby my vehicles, but I don't drive stupid. 

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I would say anywhere from 15-21mpg depending on how you are driving the thing.

Carbed 22r I've gotten as bad as 13 and up to 19 mpg so far.

[Gnarly4X [OP]]

I would say anywhere from 15-21mpg depending on how you are driving the thing.

Carbed 22r I've gotten as bad as 13 and up to 19 mpg so far.

OK... yeah... my 1985 22R shortbed 5-speed with a DT header, and 2.25" exhaust, stock cam, 4.10 R&P, 33" tires, elevation average 1200 feet above sea level....usually hot to OMG! got 19 to 20 MPG consistently on 87 octane.   I record every tank of fuel and have it on an Excel spread sheet. 

If  I cannot get 20 MPG with this rebuild, I will be disappointed.   

Gnarls.