Author Topic: Scary Drivetrain Noise...  (Read 6698 times)

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Plainview

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Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« on: Apr 23, 2016, 06:08:46 PM »
Ever since I got my truck running again last year it's had some pretty good vibrations at speed. I always figured between the buzzy nature of the 22R and the big tread blocks on the tires that it was probably normal.  Well, today while driving down 405 from Bellevue to Burien the noise and vibration started getting louder, and louder, and louder.  By the time I got to Renton I wasn't sure I was going to make it home but once the noise hit a certain level it didn't seem to be getting any worse so I just tooled along in the slow lane, ready to pull over if something let go.  As I went slower it became more of a knock than a buzz and at first I was afraid it was a bearing knock from the engine but I realized that changing gears and engine RPM didn't change the noise and I could feel it easily in the tranny and tcase shifters.

Once I got onto surface streets and drove more slowly it became a definite knock, coming from somewhere around the middle of the truck.  Loudest at slow speeds under load, pretty much gone when coasting in neutral.

Got under it once I was home and the U-joints and rear driveshaft are fine.  However, I noticed that there's a small amount of play in the output shaft from the T-case and fresh oil on the underside of the truck just above this area.

Is any play in the T-case output shaft normal?  Does this sound like it could be an output shaft bearing?

How hard is it to remove the T-case from the trans and replace bearings?   I'm plenty handy and have rebuilt engines and done all kinds of work on cars before but I've never dealt with a manual transmission or T-case.

The truck is an '84 SR5 standard cab.  As far as I know the transmission and T-case are original and have 220K on them, which would mean the tranny is a G52.  I know nothing about the transfer cases in these things... Is the transfer case for a G52 different than one from later years?

I'm in a bit of a bind here - I need this truck running and reliable by end of May, I blew my knee at the end of last December and have a mountain of hospital bills on top of the fact I didn't work for 2 months (no income at all during that time) and my knee still isn't fully healed, so I need the easiest, most cost effective options for getting this thing back on the road.

Any advice or pointers appreciated!

My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

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New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

emsvitil

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #1 on: Apr 23, 2016, 06:34:49 PM »
Take the fill plugs off the tranny and transfer and figure out the fill levels with your finger.

Also see what the oil looks like on your finger.
Ed
SoCal
86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

OVRAROK

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #2 on: Apr 23, 2016, 06:43:00 PM »
What's your location?  It pretty easy to pull, if you can build a revell model, you should be able to handle a t case
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Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #3 on: Apr 23, 2016, 07:42:15 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement.  I'm in Burien.

I'm trying to figure out how to tell if the issue is the T-case or transmission.

There are no leaks other than the one I mentioned at the output of the T-case.  Everything else under the truck is dry, except for a small oil leak from the oil pressure sending unit on the engine which I will replace ASAP.

So - is it normal for there to be a little bit of play where the driveshaft hooks up to the T-case, or is that a good indicator that something's wrong there beyond just a bad seal?

Where can I find info on T-case interchange?  if the problem is with the T-case, might be easiest to just swap another one on for now but the chances of finding one off an '84 are pretty slim so need to know what other years will work.  Same with the transmission.  If the problem is with the trans, an upgrade to a W56 would be nice, but will that work with my existing T-case?

If I end up rebuilding the T-case, where's the best source for parts?
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #4 on: Apr 23, 2016, 08:30:07 PM »
I found the Marlin Crawler page on transfer cases, (https://www.marlincrawler.com/tech/transfercase/transfer-case-bible) but it doesn't say anything about interchange.  I see that some are top shift and some are forward shift but most of the forward shift cases have shifter block off plates on top so I assume that means they could be converted to top shift if required.

so, assuming I match top-shift vs. forward-shift, will pretty much any of them interchange?  If so, are there any advantages to one year over another in stock form?

At this point I'm thinking my easiest and cheapest solution will be to pull one out of a wrecking yard so knowing what to look for would be helpful.  I can then rebuild my original with upgraded Marlin parts as time and funds allow.

My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #5 on: Apr 24, 2016, 11:40:47 AM »
Well, I guess I'm having a conversation with myself here, but what the heck.

More reading has revealed that the shift forks are different lengths in some years, that's what the 4" or 4.5" offset for the shifter refers to in Marlin's T-case bible, so I guess I'm kind of stuck in that regard, or could I swap in my parts to make it work?  There lots of questions that I can't find answers to though regarding interchangeability so here's a list of questions and maybe someone out there knows an answer or two....?  I figure any knowledge gathered in this thread might be useful to someone down the road at least...

1) Can a top-shift be converted to forward shift with the parts from my T-case?

2) Can the 4.5" shift forks from my T-case be swapped into a later model T-case with 4" forks?

3) Does the bearing retainer clip difference in these two T-cases affect their interchangeability?  Mine should be the Type 2-B.

Quote
Type 2-A Carb 4Cyl

    Installed 8/1983 to 4/1984
    Forward Shift, 4.5" Offset
    Shifter Block Off Plate
    Tall Style Case
    10mm Flange Bolts
    Quiet Run Gears
    No Bearing Retainer Clip
    21 Spline Input
    27 Spline Outputs

Type 2-B Carb 4Cyl

    Installed 4/1984 - 8/1988
    Forward Shift, 4.5" offset
    Shifter Block Off Plate
    Tall Style Case
    10mm Flange Bolts
    Quiet Run Gears
    With Bearing Retainer Clip
    21 Spline Input
    27 Spline Outputs



This all might be a moot point though. Found a guy in Monroe selling a complete W56-C and T-case.  Can't find any info on dimensional differences for the shifter locations, but they look real close in pictures and both my G52 and this W56-C are forward shift.

My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

toyodaaddict

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #6 on: Apr 24, 2016, 04:42:58 PM »
A little up and down movement in the rear output is normal, in and out play is not. the output bearing and seal can be replaced very easily with the case still in the truck. If you do this, don't forget to check the output flange for a groove where the seal rides, if it is grooved you need to replace it or the new seal will probably leak.
Now your confusing me ??? As far as interchangeability, I've always been of the understanding that all that really matters IS forward or top shift, when talking 4cyl non turbo cases.  I don't think the shift fork and retainer clip difference  have any effect on them being interchangeable, but Im not 100%. good luck
80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=101882.0

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #7 on: Apr 24, 2016, 10:44:23 PM »
Thanks man... Sure wish i'd read your reply this morning as I'm now the proud owner of a W56-C and transfer case from an '89... LOL.  With my luck it'll turn out to be a U-joint after all...  Even though I checked them and they're all tight with no slop or wiggle, but who knows, maybe the driveline was a bit bound up at that point...

Anyway, I suppose I could always re-sell the W56 if I don't need it.  Or, maybe I'll just install it anyway.  After all, it's an "upgrade" and a stronger tranny, right?

as for interchange - According to Marlin's bible, the early forward shift trannys & t-cases had 4.5" for what's called "offset".  Later ones like this one I just bought only have 4".   I won't know anything for sure 'til I drop the tranny that's in the truck and compare it with this one I just bought, but my guess is that the shifter is in a slightly different location, probably 0.5" further back on the tranny and thus the shift forks are a little shorter, which would mean you can't easily interchange these t-cases.  Also, it looks like Toyota just kept the same housing casting while changing other stuff as this t-case on the W56-C has a place to mount a shifter in the top-shift position, it's just blocked off with a plate.  Makes me think it might be possible to convert a top-shift t-case to forward shift, and vise-versa to match the transmission you're going to use it with.
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

OVRAROK

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #8 on: Apr 25, 2016, 05:31:24 AM »
Thanks man... Sure wish i'd read your reply this morning as I'm now the proud owner of a W56-C and transfer case from an '89... LOL.  With my luck it'll turn out to be a U-joint after all...  Even though I checked them and they're all tight with no slop or wiggle, but who knows, maybe the driveline was a bit bound up at that point...

Anyway, I suppose I could always re-sell the W56 if I don't need it.  Or, maybe I'll just install it anyway.  After all, it's an "upgrade" and a stronger tranny, right?

as for interchange - According to Marlin's bible, the early forward shift trannys & t-cases had 4.5" for what's called "offset".  Later ones like this one I just bought only have 4".   I won't know anything for sure 'til I drop the tranny that's in the truck and compare it with this one I just bought, but my guess is that the shifter is in a slightly different location, probably 0.5" further back on the tranny and thus the shift forks are a little shorter, which would mean you can't easily interchange these t-cases.  Also, it looks like Toyota just kept the same housing casting while changing other stuff as this t-case on the W56-C has a place to mount a shifter in the top-shift position, it's just blocked off with a plate.  Makes me think it might be possible to convert a top-shift t-case to forward shift, and vise-versa to match the transmission you're going to use it with.

I have converted a few from top to forward and vice a versa, its definitely possible
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Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2016, 10:58:50 AM »
Well, I wrestled trannys yesterday (get your mind out of the gutter) and came out defeated.

Got the old G52 out without issue but the new W56 would not go all the way in.  Got the splines lined up on input & clutch but could not get the nose of the input shaft into the pilot bearing.  After struggling mightily I dropped the new tranny back out, grabbed a clutch alignment tool and discovered that somehow the clutch is no longer aligned properly.  At that point it was about dinner time, i was tired of laying on my back in my driveway so called it a day.  Damn my arms and shoulders are sore today.

At least I know what the issue is and can correct it easily enough.

Took some measurements and pictures of the differences in the shifter locations.  The gear shift is in roughly the same position but the transfer case shifter is close to 1" further back.  I don't think this will cause too much issue with the holes in the floor or with the console, other than the shifter boot is going to be pulled into a different place.

I'll post pics and more complete description later.  I also have a question about the electrical connector on the side of the trans.  Not the 4WD indicator on the t-case, but the plug on the side of the trans.  On the G52 it's on the passenger side, on the W56 it's on the driver's side and uses a different style of connector but is the same thing inside the case.  What is this thing?

Discovered that the rear driveshaft flange is wobbling on the output shaft of the t-case.  The output shaft itself seems solid, the flange appears to be moving around on it...
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

toyodaaddict

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2016, 03:03:57 PM »
I believe the electrical connector your talking about is for your reverse lights.
80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=101882.0

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2016, 10:11:18 PM »
^^That would make sense.  Here's a pic of the doo-dad and it's location on the G-52.  On the W56 it's on the opposite side of the case and has a different plug.  Very similar inside the case.

DSC_1345 by Will Baker, on Flickr

Here's what it looks like if you pull it out.  The one on the W56 is very similar.  Same length, same style ball on the end but the shank is slightly shorter and the un-threaded portion is narrower.  I'm wondering if they're interchangeable as it would be a lot easier to get this one re-connected to my electrical system.

DSC_1347 by Will Baker, on Flickr
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

redneckcustoms13

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2016, 09:21:34 AM »
Yep reverse light plug.
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

toyodaaddict

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2016, 09:44:46 AM »
Yeah, go ahead and try swapping them if you want, it should be fine. I've swapped them from trans to trans many times with no problems.
80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=101882.0

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2016, 09:54:49 AM »
Right on, thanks much!   :thumbs:
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2016, 06:48:15 PM »
 :smack:

I found why the transmission wouldn't mate up with the engine and I'm definitely smacking my forehead over it...

There is an alignment dowel near the top of the bellhousing, next to the top passenger side bellhousing bolt.  This dowel was present in both the block and the bellhousing.  Duh.

It should go together just fine now but I have to wait for the weekend to find enough time and a pair of hands to help.
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

redneckcustoms13

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2016, 09:17:45 AM »
I ran into that at 2 am once trying to get a dd toyota together. Makes you feel dumb when you set back and look at it lol
83 long bed 2wd sas, 3rz, w56, duals with 4.7 rear, 4.88 elock front, spartan rear, 39.5 iroks
01 double cab hunting truck
06 tacoma street truck

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2016, 08:56:44 PM »
Yep, feeling pretty dumb!

And, the noise wasn't the transmission.  I got the W56 in and it seems to work fine though I couldn't really put it through its paces as that nasty noise was still there.

I'm not sorry I swapped the trans, this W56 feels tighter than the old trans, it didn't cost a lot, and the old transfer case was definitely developing a problem at the output flange (oil leaking, flange moving on shaft) but it didn't solve the big problem.

I dropped the driveshaft and put the rear up on jackstands and could hear a clicking/knocking coming from the differential, so pulled everything all apart and found this:

DSC_1403 by Will Baker, on Flickr

DSC_1400 by Will Baker, on Flickr

So, now I guess I get to go looking for a good third member to swap in as I need to get this truck back on the road ASAP.

I'm hoping I can find two third members as I want to change gears and install a locker and/or tru-trac, so I could rebuild ^that^ one and one other one then just swap them both in over a weekend.

At least when this is all done i'll have a nicer transmission, new U-joints and rebuilt axles.
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

:)bestgen4runner

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2016, 09:01:19 PM »
That is a big chunk of pinion you got there.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2016, 09:04:52 PM »
LOL - no kidding!  I have to wonder why, after 220K+ miles it finally broke like that.
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

:)bestgen4runner

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2016, 09:09:03 PM »
Only thing that does that is some rough use.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2016, 09:17:38 PM »
I've never driven it very hard.  I bought it with 190K on it so it's been fine for the last 30K miles.  I've only wheeled it on pretty tame trails, and that not very often.  Ah well, nothing lasts forever.
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

SqWADoosh

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2016, 01:23:08 PM »
Can't believe it was only a light click with that huge piece missing! Can't believe that didn't lock it up!

Plainview [OP]

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Re: Scary Drivetrain Noise...
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2016, 02:22:30 PM »
Thank God it didn't!  Wouldn't have been pretty having the rear wheels locked up at 60 mph on 405 in traffic...

It was more than a light click.  Pretty distinctive buzzing which turned into a good knock at low speed.
My '84 Daily Driver Build:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98717.0
*For Sale Soon*

---------------------------------
New '84 Xtra Cab Project:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100651.new#new
Parts Wanted:
- Pass. side interior panel/Xtra cab window surround
- Un-cracked dash pad (do they exist?)
- Stock drag link

 
 
 
 
 

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