Topic: Birfields or Hubs - popping noise

[jmac80]

Hello all-

Haven't been on in awhile.....anyway, looking for some past experiences.  I've had my truck now for about 6 months and finally got to use the 4WD last weekend up in southern Mendocino Forest area.  It's the typical factory SFA setup.  So, I locked hubs and put in 4H.  Tried to pull forward slowly (since 1st time to really use it) and felt a slight bind...truck didn't want to go.  So, I put back in 2WD and unlocked and relocked hubs.  Back in 4WD and drove fine, right up the hill.  Problem was although performance was normal I could hear a clicking sound from the passenger side.  The clicking is present in 4H and 4L, so it's definitely down stream of the x-case.  Clicking is only present with hubs locked.  What do you guys think? Hubs or axle problem.........I really hope it's the hubs, but seems like the performance would have suffered (not pulled) more if it was hubs.   

[OVRAROK]

swap hubs, if noise changes to drivers side... 

[jmac80 [OP]]

I'll pull it off next week and look at it.....it's my DD so I hate not having the parts ready to go and having it out of commission while waiting on parts to show up.  I also work on it on the street in Oakland so there is some concern there as well regarding parking, weather, etc.  Oh well, guess that's what you get with a 35 year old truck.  I'll report back once I know more.

[jmac80 [OP]]

Awake from the grave! So I've got some concern the rear diff may have been switched and the gear ratios aren't matching. I've looked at several sites and am confused... My plate says axle is G102.....does anyone know what that is stock? It also says tranny is l43 but I believe it is an l52...does 65 easily on highway..haha. Anyway what's g102 supposed to mean? I can tell rear was switched at some point

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[Mudder]

I wouldn't trust the plate, I'd check the ratio's yourself, here's a good write up.

http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/gear-ratio.html

[jmac80 [OP]]

OK so I'm finally getting around to fixing this thing....just keep going hunting and camping every weekend instead of working on the truck.  Unfortunately, I'm restricted to 2WD roads with my current F'ed up front end.  So, I'm now pretty certain the birfield is busted.  My plan is to fix the axle and then figure out what's going on with the gear ratios (before running 4WD on the fixed axle)....first things first right.

So, what's the deal with the 27 vs 30 spline?  Are these spine counts only referring to the inner/outer axle connection.....I don't understand how you could use different spline count on stock hubs and differential.

I figured I would just order one 27 spline Marfield, reuse the inner the axle, and leave the other side alone.  Is this what you guys would suggest for me?  I have 3" lift but run stock wheels/tires.  I figured I would go with Marfields over Longfields just because I like Marlin stuff (no real justification) and planned on getting one of those ecoseals with the order (and the clip).  There is also crap available on EBay, but by the time I pay for shipping I and dealing with some yahoo I may as well go with old faithful MC parts, right?  Other option is salvage yard, but there aren't a lot of trucks left around here in Oakland, as least from what I've seen (only been here a little over a year now).

[H8PVMNT]

Take it apart first and see what's up.

[blackdiamond]

thanks so much bestgen4runner, its a running

The birfields are all 30 spline at the differential and hub. Stock is 27 spline in the joint.

[jmac80 [OP]]

Ahhhhhh.......that's why the whole assembly is listed as 30 and just the birf is listed as 27, makes sense now.

As for tearing down before ordering.....I'm going to be doing this on the road in my neighborhood.  I leave right next to downtown Oakland and don't want the bums and recyclers to mess with stuff or have some cop try and tow it for sitting in the same spot for 3 days.

Do you ever see damage on the inner axle?  ........partsgeek.com has whole assembly for sale for 50 bucks.  I bet that's a PoS!!!

Also, here's my parts list, please chime in if I'm missing something:
CV joint grease
wheel bearing grease
outer axle/birf
c-clip for joining axles at birf
inner axle seal
spindle bushing (probably leave the old one in if it looks OK but want one on hand just in case)
hub dial gasket
hub body gasket
hub dial o-ring
6 pack Budweiser

[jmac80 [OP]]

So I went ahead and got a pair of 30 spline Marfields. I wasn't even thinking about this approach but the guy helping me (called and spoke with someone at MC) suggested pulling the knuckle off and leaving spindle and everything assembled. I was thinking leaving knuckle on and go at it from the outside....basically just disassemble until spindle is of them pull out the axle, replace oil seal, and then reassemble.  Which would everyone else recommend, and like pulling the trunions pens (i guess that's what there's called) would be a bigger PIA. But I've been wrong before, so please come in everyone.

Also, would either route require pulling hub body off.....my hubs are recently rebuilt, so no intention of using new grease. Can't I just work through the dial space and get the spindle nuts off then just pull off rotor with hub body attached? Will I be able to get bearings lined back up during reassembly using this method?

BTW- I did go ahead and order dial face, hub body, and spindle gaskets. Also got bearing seals.

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[jmac80 [OP]]

bump......can I get some input on the preferred approach to pulling the birf?....gonna start into it tomorrow after work and was hoping to hear from the experts before then.  Thanks in advance. 

[OVRAROK]

bump......can I get some input on the preferred approach to pulling the birf?....gonna start into it tomorrow after work and was hoping to hear from the experts before then.  Thanks in advance. 

I think this would depend on if your planning on 're packing wheel bearing and such, if your buying and plan on rebuilding front end, then strip it down .I recently up graded axles to rcv's. As my front axle was just rebuilt the prior year, and had no problem, I just removed brake caliper and removed top steering arm on knuckle, took about an hour to do both sides

[jmac80 [OP]]

I think this would depend on if your planning on 're packing wheel bearing and such, if your buying and plan on rebuilding front end, then strip it down .I recently up graded axles to rcv's. As my front axle was just rebuilt the prior year, and had no problem, I just removed brake caliper and removed top steering arm on knuckle, took about an hour to do both sides

Just to confirm, you did something like this:

pull off wheel
remove hub dial plate/spring/gear assembly
remove outer birf c-clip from inside hub
remove caliper
remove 8 bolts from back of knuckle (that holds the seals/felts together)
remove top steering arm/upper trunion from knuckle
allow knuckle to drop down allowing lower trunion to clear trunion bearing (please confirm this step as I would have thought upper and lower trunion would have to be pulled)
pull off knuckle w/ lower trunion still attached to knuckle
pull axle and inner axle seal
reassemble


I was thinking of doing it this way

pull off wheel
remove hub dial plate/spring/gear assembly
remove outer birf c-clip from inside hub
remove spindle nuts (just bought a 54mm socket so I could stop using the chisel method and remove with hub body still attached)
remove caliper
pull off rotor w/ hub body still attached
pull and replace wheel bearing oil seal (I think the bearings and packing are new and anticipate not needing to do this)
remove spindle
pull birf and inner seal
replace seal and install Marfields
reassemble with new gaskets

I already bought bearing seals, dial and hub body gaskets, spindle gaskets and rubber with the intention of going my route.  I don't have new felts and seals for the back of the knuckle, as I just ordered the gaskets I needed from the stealer.

Also, I plan to fill the knuckle with grease.  Do you guys put CV grease inside the birf and use high temp bearing grease to fill the knuckle?  Will these mixing be an issue?  I know some guys don't fill the knuckle, but this is my DD and trail rider and not a seriously wheelin' machine, so I don't plan on getting into the knuckle for at least a couple years to come after this.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.

[OVRAROK]

Just to confirm, you did something like this:

pull off wheel
remove hub dial plate/spring/gear assembly
remove outer birf c-clip from inside hub
remove caliper
remove 8 bolts from back of knuckle (that holds the seals/felts together)
remove top steering arm/upper trunion from knuckle
allow knuckle to drop down allowing lower trunion to clear trunion bearing (please confirm this step as I would have thought upper and lower trunion would have to be pulled)
pull off knuckle w/ lower trunion still attached to knuckle
pull axle and inner axle seal
reassemble


I was thinking of doing it this way

pull off wheel
remove hub dial plate/spring/gear assembly
remove outer birf c-clip from inside hub
remove spindle nuts (just bought a 54mm socket so I could stop using the chisel method and remove with hub body still attached)
remove caliper
pull off rotor w/ hub body still attached
pull and replace wheel bearing oil seal (I think the bearings and packing are new and anticipate not needing to do this)
remove spindle
pull birf and inner seal
replace seal and install Marfields
reassemble with new gaskets

I already bought bearing seals, dial and hub body gaskets, spindle gaskets and rubber with the intention of going my route.  I don't have new felts and seals for the back of the knuckle, as I just ordered the gaskets I needed from the stealer.

Also, I plan to fill the knuckle with grease.  Do you guys put CV grease inside the birf and use high temp bearing grease to fill the knuckle?  Will these mixing be an issue?  I know some guys don't fill the knuckle, but this is my DD and trail rider and not a seriously wheelin' machine, so I don't plan on getting into the knuckle for at least a couple years to come after this.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.

yes I did it the first way, ive heard of some people having problems doing it this way. its just a weighty chunk that needs to be position just right to get off and on, I myself don't pack the ball to much, if for some reason you have to do a trail fix, all that grease is a mess to have to deal with. I myself put about an inch around inside of ball

[jmac80 [OP]]

yes I did it the first way, ive heard of some people having problems doing it this way. its just a weighty chunk that needs to be position just right to get off and on, I myself don't pack the ball to much, if for some reason you have to do a trail fix, all that grease is a mess to have to deal with. I myself put about an inch around inside of ball

I think I'll do the broken birf side (passenger side) my way.  If all the bearings and seals look good, I'll assume the same is true for the driver side and take your route on the driver side.

I get to do this on the street in Oakland in front of my apartment.....should be exciting!  I'll report back Monday and let you know how things went.

[jmac80 [OP]]

yes I did it the first way, ive heard of some people having problems doing it this way. its just a weighty chunk that needs to be position just right to get off and on, I myself don't pack the ball to much, if for some reason you have to do a trail fix, all that grease is a mess to have to deal with. I myself put about an inch around inside of ball

What's the torque spec on the steering arm/trunions bolts?

[jmac80 [OP]]

yes I did it the first way, ive heard of some people having problems doing it this way. its just a weighty chunk that needs to be position just right to get off and on, I myself don't pack the ball to much, if for some reason you have to do a trail fix, all that grease is a mess to have to deal with. I myself put about an inch around inside of ball

Yep....this is way easier. I did both sides this way. Passenger after work on Friday and then driver Saturday AM. Here's the kicker.....the birfs were fine. I went ahead and put the 30 spline Marfields in anyway. Basically just spent about 700 bucks between the axles and the gaskets that I didn't even need (thanks to Ovrarok keeping me straight on the easy way). F**k me!

Oh well I guess it's an upgrade regardless and I can sell the birfs.

So still got my popping noise and immediately thought differential on Friday when I pulled passenger axle and didn't see anything, but now I'm thinking maybe driveshaft.  I was cleaning up and wiping grease off shaft and noticed slack. Not u joint or rotational slack but bending slack....this is a bad description, sorry. I could push and pull it back and forth where the male and female pieces intersect, basically not making a straight line between u joints.....make sense?

I this my problem? I avidly checked u joint before starting on the axle path but only pulled on the ends of the shaft and not the middle where the slack is obvious.


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[jmac80 [OP]]

I have 3" lift and stock DS....btw. should have mentioned this first

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