Topic: Project options & 20r vs 22r Opinions

[lostbuckaroo]

First I'm completely new to the Crawler/Toyota stuff but I've done a fair ammount of research so .. I didn't think this qualified for the NEWB section.. I'm hoping you all agree. . and I don't get Flamed 

I know it's been asked many times before.. but everything I've found on the net has been old posts (20r vs. 22r) and I wanted to get some more 'current' opinions on my thinking/plans..

I picked up a 1980 Long bed.. Complete 20r, 4speed, tcase.. drivetrain body etc.. is all there. 

I also Picked up a 1984 Short bed, this thing is basically setup just needs an engine, and a few minor things..(has dual, cases, 5" TG lift in front, Chevy spring in rear, 5speed, and the list goes on and on)

I was planning on building out the 1980 as a Truggy project but the 84' was just too good a deal to pass up!

So now I have the two trucks. The 1980 is definitely worth something, the guy said he put a rebuilt engine in it but was having trouble with CA smog... The engine hasn't been started in over a year, but turns over, the oil is clean, coolant etc.. but I haven't had a chance to get it started yet. (hopefully today)

My thinking is this I could go two ways with this:

1. Get the 20r in 80' running and driving minimally and sell it... (use that $$$ for my 84')

2. Check the 20r in the 80' for viability, get it running, check compression etc. If the engine is good (as the seller stated) pull the 20r and put it in my 84'. (This would be a way for me to get my 84' running and get started , I can upgrade modify or change later) .. Then either keep the 80' for a future project, or sell it as a parts/project truck to the right buyer..

Other things you should know.. On the 84' I plan on making it strictly offroad, no smog, no D.D., also I'd like to run propane in it. I'm aware that if I run the 20r in it I need to get an adapter plate, and 22r carb baseplate (which I already have)..

Ok what do you all think!? Thanks in advance for your opinions!

[H8PVMNT]

After driving both I like my 20r better. It pulls harder and revs quicker. The crummy little 20r carb on mine runs better at extreme angles than the 22r I had too.  The 20r carb always seems a little rich and has a lousey idle most days, but you can put it vertical or on it's side and it still goes.  My 22r carb quit when laid on it's side.

That's just my individual experience running both in stock form.

I'm sure other guys will chime in here.

If I were you I would set up the '80 for a driver/wheeler and cut up the '84 for a hard core rig.

There is just something better about driving a 1st gen...

[lostbuckaroo [OP]]

After driving both I like my 20r better. It pulls harder and revs quicker. The crummy little 20r carb on mine runs better at extreme angles than the 22r I had too.  The 20r carb always seems a little rich and has a lousey idle most days, but you can put it vertical or on it's side and it still goes.  My 22r carb quit when laid on it's side.

That's just my individual experience running both in stock form.

I'm sure other guys will chime in here.

If I were you I would set up the '80 for a driver/wheeler and cut up the '84 for a hard core rig.

There is just something better about driving a 1st gen...

Thanks for your opinion! And your experience sure helps... Yep the 84 will be a the dedicated crawler/wheeler regardless... I don't need a D.D. vehicle.. So that's why I would consider either selling the 80' -or- keeping it for a project truck later down the road... the 84' will be a learning experience and I'm pretty sure that I'll want to build something bigger and badder down the road. That's just the way it seems these things go!!! (That's why I'm considering keep ing the 80' regardless).. But yeah although I haven't driven either one yet... Sitting behind the wheel of the 1st gen just feel right!!!

[lostbuckaroo [OP]]

Here are photos of both.. Not that it makes a difference but I know I like pictures 

[toyodaaddict]

you mentioned bigger  badder down the road, what about selling off one or the other and doing an RZ swap , just an idea. if your not concerned with power i say run the 20r on propane. 20r is a tough motor. power difference between a 20r  an 22r offroad is not enough to matter from my experience

[lostbuckaroo [OP]]

you mentioned bigger  badder down the road, what about selling off one or the other and doing an RZ swap , just an idea. if your not concerned with power i say run the 20r on propane. 20r is a tough motor. power difference between a 20r  an 22r offroad is not enough to matter from my experience

Yeah I'm not concerned about HP as much as simplicity and reliability. This is a starter project. I want to do what I can to get into it as budget minded as possible. It'll be a learning experience and I can go over the top, high $$$ later. For now I just wanna something safe and reliable. The truck needs other things like an internal roll cage, and sliders, bumpers etc... I'm thinking saving the 80 for a bada$$ back half, tube truggy later... Or just selling it for parts and converting the 84' to a truggy later..  Sounds like I'm doin the 20r swap so long as it's in good enough condition..

[tgmaul88]

get that 84 running and wheel it! sell the 80 to me : )

[emsvitil]

CA won't let you put the 20R in the 84  (smog) if you want to have it street legal.

[lostbuckaroo [OP]]

CA won't let you put the 20R in the 84  (smog) if you want to have it street legal.

Won't be a street machine.. she'll be a trailer to the trail kinda rig.

Thanks!

[lostbuckaroo [OP]]

get that 84 running and wheel it! sell the 80 to me : )

   

[sirdeuce]

My 2c on the 20/22 R. For the street the 20R is best for all around power. Put a set of 22R pistons in it and have a ball, but the bottom of the powerband is not as torque as the 22R. The 22R has a better torque band from idle to about 2000rpm, a lot of grunt for crawlin'. Either engine will respond to a properly tuned downdraft weber. The 22R is easier to convert to EFI. Personally I like a 20/22R hybrid with a mild port job and bigger valves. With the right cam and tune you can make a stump puller. FYI the 20R head will bolt to an early 22r block (pre '85) with no mods and attain a higher compression ratio still street usable. The later block ('85 and later) can use the 20R head, but the compression drops of to turbo levels and the cam timing advances too far to be useable. To remedy, machine work has to be done to lower the cam height to head deck and the oil passage has to be recut, a lot of work to put the 20R on the late 22R block. I've gone too far, again. But both engine are good, but have different personalities. Just gotta figure out wich girl is right for you.

[lostbuckaroo [OP]]

My 2c on the 20/22 R. For the street the 20R is best for all around power. Put a set of 22R pistons in it and have a ball, but the bottom of the powerband is not as torque as the 22R. The 22R has a better torque band from idle to about 2000rpm, a lot of grunt for crawlin'. Either engine will respond to a properly tuned downdraft weber. The 22R is easier to convert to EFI. Personally I like a 20/22R hybrid with a mild port job and bigger valves. With the right cam and tune you can make a stump puller. FYI the 20R head will bolt to an early 22r block (pre '85) with no mods and attain a higher compression ratio still street usable. The later block ('85 and later) can use the 20R head, but the compression drops of to turbo levels and the cam timing advances too far to be useable. To remedy, machine work has to be done to lower the cam height to head deck and the oil passage has to be recut, a lot of work to put the 20R on the late 22R block. I've gone too far, again. But both engine are good, but have different personalities. Just gotta figure out wich girl is right for you.

Wow thanks for the info! I'm thinking I'm gonna use this 20r. She seems to be a runner I got it to fire up tonight. Just pulled and cleaned the plugs poured some fresh gas down the carb and she fired right up! Also did a dry compression test (although) the engine wasn't warm all cylinders were between 145/150 psi.

[sirdeuce]

Little 20R is a trooper! Can't hardly kill it. Make sure all your coolant lines are in good shape though, overheating the R series is the easiest way to find out the limitations. I drove my '83 about 3 miles with NO water in the system. After blowing the hose I was curious what it could take. The last 1/4 was the final nail in the coffin. I'm sure you won't go this far, but the stock internals are good for 7000RPM all day long, but 7500 is a short fuse. That's info for that missed shift.

[lostbuckaroo [OP]]

Little 20R is a trooper! Can't hardly kill it. Make sure all your coolant lines are in good shape though, overheating the R series is the easiest way to find out the limitations. I drove my '83 about 3 miles with NO water in the system. After blowing the hose I was curious what it could take. The last 1/4 was the final nail in the coffin. I'm sure you won't go this far, but the stock internals are good for 7000RPM all day long, but 7500 is a short fuse. That's info for that missed shift.

Sirdeuce: thanks for all the helpful info!!! I got a question for you on reading the plugs.. When I initially pulled the plugs all of them had carbon build up on them.. (not a big deal just tuning and timing I'm thinking?) However the Cylinder 2 plug had a little oil on it. Is this cause for any concern??

My plan is to pull the engine put it on a stand and give it a once over. I was thinking even though the engine is "supposedly new" I would go ahead and replace the re-main seal, oil pan and valve cover gaskets.. Of course will I'm in there I'll check the bottom end and valve adjustment. Do you think I should be concerned about that oily plug on cylinder 2? Since I'll have the engine out I'm thinking it would be a good time to pull the head and have a look if I need to?

Also bear in mind I plan on running this 20r on Propane so......

[tgmaul88]

might just be a little blow by, soak em with atf,  give it a proper break in cycle and once propanes on it will be a lot cleaner. no carbon, i suspect carbon on plugs due to lean or rich carb

[sirdeuce]

First off, how long has this truck been sitting? Did you allow it to warm up completely before you decided to check the plugs? Was the oily plug loose? Maybe seepage down the threads.  Try a new set of plugs to get a more accurate idea what is going on, warm the engine up before you put them in. Consider an engine that sits for an extended period can develop many problems, like sticky rings.  If the carb dried out so many things can be going wrong there, carbon buildup is one. I'm not too versed in propane, I do understand there is a dropoff in power. If you are planning on just running propane you could increase your compression ratio, look into the octane equivalent of propane to gasoline to get an idea where you can go with that. Where are you located?

[lostbuckaroo [OP]]

First off, how long has this truck been sitting? Did you allow it to warm up completely before you decided to check the plugs? Was the oily plug loose? Maybe seepage down the threads.  Try a new set of plugs to get a more accurate idea what is going on, warm the engine up before you put them in. Consider an engine that sits for an extended period can develop many problems, like sticky rings.  If the carb dried out so many things can be going wrong there, carbon buildup is one. I'm not too versed in propane, I do understand there is a dropoff in power. If you are planning on just running propane you could increase your compression ratio, look into the octane equivalent of propane to gasoline to get an idea where you can go with that. Where are you located?

I'm in Northern California, Sacramento area. With all the options I think I've got it narrowed down to what I'm gonna do.

To answer your question no. I wasn't able to get the engine warmed up as I wasn't able to keep it running long enough to get it warmed up. The engine had been sitting for well over a year since it was ran last. The guy I bought it from was having a ton of trouble getting it Smogged so. Tuning, Carb issues and plus the fact that it has been sitting for a long time, I'm sure have several things working against it.

I spoke to the gentleman at Engnbldr.com this morning and explained what I was trying to do. Man what a nice guy, he must have spent over 45 minutes on the phone with me explaining my options and his opinions.
I have tendency to want to get everything done right now. And because of that I usually rush things and regret it. I don't want to spend a bunch of time and money on this engine deal but I think in this case I don't want to rush and cut any corners. I'm convinced now that a 20r/22r combo engine would be the way to go. I'm going to build/rebuild an engine from the ground up. So I know what I've got and and I know what I'm working with. Even though it may take some time to gather all the parts and pieces ($$$$) I think this is the best route to go.....  I mean yeah I could probably get by with the 20r.. but I don't want to be kicking myself in the future thinking "I wish I woulda" been there done that several times... I just wanna do it right the first time and be done with it. So this'll be my first step. I guess I better start a build thread on this puppy!

I appreciate your time and input!

[HogCanyonHopper]

 

[kneedownnate]

I've run both off and on since the mid 90s.  Best thing I've done was plop a good 20r head onto the 22r block and improve airflow in and out.  It will breath much better and will pull hard to a much higher rpm, but will still grunt down low.  I've had mine to over 6700 rpm without it falling flat.