Topic: Another 3.0 HG Blew

[Sparkplug]

I made a trip to the bay, to pick up a cherry 88 4runner 3.0 sr5 auto. It is in great shape, has every option that it could have had, body is great, original paint is great, clear coat peeling, and last but not least, a blown head gasket . I knew it was blown when I bought it, but only 160k and I traded a toy front axle and rear springs for the whole truck. It will still start and drive, I drove it around the block to make sure tranny shifts. But it blows white smoke bad. Needless to say, its parked now, and Im gonna do the hg. Ive done them on 22r and 22re many times, simple as hell. This engine doesnt look too much worse. My questions for you guys, is if you have done one, were there any probs that could have been avoided, any tricks to make stuff easier, and any hidden things that could seiously mess stuff up, kinda like the hidden bolt on 22r on timing cover. Also,I have done reading, and read that MLS head gaskets fix the problem of them blowing on these engines. Is this true? They are about 50 bucks for both gaskets, I could also just get a whole head kit from rock auto for 110 bucks. Just wanted everyones opinions. Thank you

[joeycool00]

spend the xtra cash and get felpro head gaskets for it if your going to keep it, and when you do it, make sure you take all the wiring out and sluff it on the side of the fender its just easier that way!

[Sparkplug [OP]]

cool, my manual says to pull intake harness completely out, and set it off to side. I am going to keep it, but either way, I wouldnt do a crap job, and then sell it to someone.

[kneedownnate]

spend the xtra cash and get felpro head gaskets for it if your going to keep it

  You're not serious, are you?  Felpro are some of the crappiest head gaskets you can get!

[joeycool00]

  You're not serious, are you?  Felpro are some of the crappiest head gaskets you can get!

well i digress if i was to spend a little more money I would go with the revamped yota gasket, but i still feel like felpro would be second best

[fade]

Oem toyota or nothin. You will just find your self doing the job again. ASk me how I don't know.

[kneedownnate]

well i digress if i was to spend a little more money I would go with the revamped yota gasket, but i still feel like felpro would be second best

  maybe second to worst, but far from second best

Oem toyota or nothin. You will just find your self doing the job again. ASk me how I don't know.

[Larryb]

I just did mine a few months ago and bought my gasket set through Ted at engnbldr. I asked him about the quality of his head gaskets and he stated he backs them up 100% or he would not sell them. Ted has never steered me wrong in the past and have purchased several parts through him for my 22RE and 3VZE. Just a word of warning, the 3VZE is a biotch to change head gaskets on.

[Sparkplug [OP]]

well hopin it not too bad to change, I just finished an efi swap on an 84 so I know how to turn a wrench. No one knows any info on the new MLS (MULI-LAYER Surface?) gaskets? They look far better than others, and supposedly fix the problem forever. The motor dont look to bad to work on, hope I can do it as this runner is cherry

[rockin86runner]

so fel-pro isnt the way to go thas all iv used in the past is fel pro im about to do the head gasket on my girls 2nd gen.. so you guys say to use all OEM toyota gaskets and such

[Sparkplug [OP]]

just looked on a oem site, and its says 47 bucks for toyota hg, but i dunno if that single, or pair, cause I know they dif, but it doesnt give you an option to specify

[kneedownnate]

I think the only way to "fix it forever" is to make sure the deck surface is totally flat, make sure the heads are totally flat and not cracked, install head studs, and get headers with a different crossover that doesn't concentrate so much heat on the back of the heads. 

MLS is the only option worth spending the money on, unless you like saving a few bucks to do a job again later.  I'm sure ted believes what he sells is great, but any business is going to tell you they back what they sell.  Would they make any money if they didn't?  This has been hashed over and over and over, add nausium.  People will always overlook the 9 people telling them to avoid product X and go with the 1 person telling them the option they proposed is fine, just to re-affirm their desires. 

Spend the extra money and do it right or complain later on a forum about felpro gaskets 

[Sparkplug [OP]]

Not goin fel pro, either toyota or MLS for hg. All other gaskets i need will be whatever napa sells. I am goin to take the heads to my local shop, and have them do them. Im going to buy 6 exhaust valves, because I read that they burn, and have those installed at the same time. Only thing that has me a little sketch is the block, I have no way to deck it with it in, and im not goin to pull this engine out. Hopefully it will be flat. I just want it to last for 50 k, then Ill end up sellin or trading it, but dont wanna give someone a time bomb, ya know.

[joeycool00]

I used the revamped oem gasket that was produced after all the recalls and sheites, I paid 70 smackers a piece, and dont forget to change the h2o tube gasket inside the valley along with the knock sensor, just best to do it while your in there!  

[lucky7]

ishno's are pretty nice.

[Snowtoy]

This '93FSM will be your best friend for the tear down/rebuild.  I know yours is an '88, but the 3.0 stayed relatively unchanged through its run, and the '93 manual will work w/o issue.  The FSM also contains the 22re specs, tear down procedures, etc.

If you aren't going to rebuild the entire motor, you can't use the MLS, both of the heads and the block have to be prepped for a metal head gasket at a machine shop, simply being flat isn't good enough.  If you don't don't have perfectly smooth surfaces the metal head gasket will leak very soon after installing it, this happens all the time on Supra forums I belong too.  The 7m is also prone to BHG especially under boost, which metal HG and studs resolves rather easilly.  A lot of builders ignore the advice and just have the heads prepped and not the block, and often have a water in the before they even begin boosting the engine.   Since you are going to do an in truck rebuild, just send the heads out to be checked/rebuilt.  I would port match the heads before sending them out, better airflow is always beneficial.  You might check around and see which shops do the head work for the local Toyota dealer.  The shop I used did everything for me, including adjusting the valves, and installing new torque-to-yield head bolts in the heads.  All I had to do was drop them into place and torque them down.

You must use new head bolts regardless of the condition the originals are in.  The oem HB's are torque-to-yield and can never be retorqued to the proper value.  The reuse of TTY's is the number one reason for reoccurring BHG's w/the 3.0.  Buy new TTY bolts from the dealer, new standard bolts from enginebuilder.com, or ARP studs from whomever still carries them.  ARP will cut you some if you send in one of the oem ones, but I never got a quote on what the cost would be.  At the time I rebuilt my 3.0 I went w/ new TTY bolts, only ARP studs available at the time were  through DOA for $185/set.

You must also replace the knock sensor wire, it gets exposed to heat and becomes very brittle and breaks as soon as you start to remove it.  Toyota as well as as other mechanics recommend replacing the knock sensor as well, due to its location it is cheaper to just replace the KS w/the wire  AFAIK, no one has ever actually bothered seeing if the KS goes bad, or just the wire.  If you don't mind the risk of going back in and replacing the KS($165), you might try just replacing the wire, other than removing the clip the KS isn't touched.

I would have the injectors cleaned and rebuilt as well, runs anywhere from $6/each for cleaning to $32 for rebuilds that are balanced and flow tested.

Having rebuilt 22r/e's a 7mgte and the 3.0, I would to say the 3.0 is a lot more mentally tiresome than the other 2.  There is just a lot of stuff that has to be mapped out and marked before the tear down.  The layout of the 3.0 also really isn't a ziplock friendly engine, I found using cardboard to hold the bolts in the order they came out w/a note of where the part goes worked well, a lot easier than ziplock bags.  W/the 3.0 a digital camera is almost as important as the FSM, especially if there will be some time between tear down and the rebuild.

[Sparkplug [OP]]

Just got heads off, ready to go to shop. Weird, it looks like it blew at the front cylinder. on the pas side. Was fel pro gasket.... I removed both heads with crossover attached all at once. I got timing pulleys off by having buddy hold crank 19mm bolt with wrench, while I hit cam bolts with breaker bar, worked like a charm. Only thing that gave me a problem, was the water tube between the heads, it refused to come out, eventually we gave up and pulled it out with the head. No other problems, my knock sensor wire didnt even break, although it looks rather bad. Will update with install notes. Thanks all.

[Snowtoy]

Broken or not replace the KS wire.  Everyone who hasn't has had the CEL come on and the code be for the KS w/in a month of reinstalling the heads.

There is an easier way of removing/installing the the timing pulleys on the heads.  You need a 1-1/8" or 1-1/4" wrench(to hold the cam in place), and a 2x4 about 12" long.  Put the wrench on the cam and the 2x4 on the block or upper A-arm(depending on what side you are working on), and rest the wrench against the 2x4.
W/160k on the odometer you might want to replace the timing belt as well, 80k is the recommended replacement mileage for them.

[Sparkplug [OP]]

Has receipts in glove box for timing belt, water pump, tstat, an other parts, Also looks like somone has done hg before, as it was a fel pro one. Used old head bolts I believe. I am going to replace the wire, do I just build my own? Or do I buy one? Im kinda low on funds, but like to do stuff the best I can. I knew your way for timing belts, but my way seemed far easier, just leave belt attached, hold crank, and bust cams free, we didnt even have to remve the tensioner, we removed middle pulley, and belt came out fine.

[Snowtoy]

I imagine you could make your own KS wire, do you have shielded wire and new end clips.  I know a lot of people in the Supra(MKIII) community have to re-wire the KS, but it requires buying new ends from the dealer and finding shielded wire

I think the KS wire is relatively inexpensive(compared to the $165 for the KS), unfortunately I believe it is a dealership only item.  Shoot Butler Toyota(Indianapolis) a parts request email, they were cheaper than my local Toyota dealer(even w/my 25% discount) a few years ago when I rebuilt the top end on my '90.

[Sparkplug [OP]]

I was thinking a heavy gauge wire, wrapped in electrical tape, then shrink wrapped, using clips to hold it in. I will post pics of my heads now that they back from shop, soon, as there are 2 very small dings in surface, and one water outlet has a very small edge missing. Hopefully all is still good. The machinist said that the blocks warp all the time, is this true. He said that if I put them on without doing block, it will prob just blow. But I have also read countless threads with people who left block in, so I dunno

[kneedownnate]

Don't wrap it with electrical tape then put heat shrink over it.  You'll end up with a nasty gooey mess after the chemical reaction.  You'd be better off just using heat shrink.

[Snowtoy]

I was thinking a heavy gauge wire, wrapped in electrical tape, then shrink wrapped, using clips to hold it in. I will post pics of my heads now that they back from shop, soon, as there are 2 very small dings in surface, and one water outlet has a very small edge missing. Hopefully all is still good. The machinist said that the blocks warp all the time, is this true. He said that if I put them on without doing block, it will prob just blow. But I have also read countless threads with people who left block in, so I dunno

If you are going to use a metal head gasket this is correct, if you are using a oem gasket then it depends on what you found when you pulled the heads.

Did you check the block w/ straight edge?  If you did, could you get a feeler gauge under it anywhere along the straight edge, if so what thickness.  Any deep pitting on the block surface?

I had some over heating issues back in '01(bad rad) where the needle actually pegged and the truck jerked.  When I rebuilt the top end in '04, the block was true, and it has been 6 yrs w/o any HG issue.  On reassembly use new valve cover gaskets, and torque the covers down correctly, otherwise you will get leaks, or crack them if over tightened.

You need more than a simple heavy wire for the KS wire, you need a shielded wire like a usb cord, shielded TV cable etc, otherwise the ecu wont get a signal.  Seeing how there is a break in the wiring w/the 3.0, I think you need to get the oem wire.  The wire on my '91(22re) was broke when the PO pulled the engine, and they tried to fix it w/connectors.  I pulled the wire soldered the two back together, and still got the KS code.  I had to remove enough of the wire from the harness so it would reach the KS so there wouldn't be any breaks in the wire.  Seeing how the oem system on the 3.0 has a beak in it, I think your only chance of getting it right is to use the same wire, or a wire w/the same ohm resistance.  Of course this isn't a priority vehicle you can afford the hassle of pulling of the intake and what not to get back to the KS wire, if your fix doesn't work, it is only your time and a few intake gaskets.

[Sparkplug [OP]]

It runs!!!!! Had an initial fuel and water leak, had to pull upper intake. I know the top end of this motor like the back of my hand now. Its not that bad, just quite a few parts. Everything pretty much goes into its place. Thanks to all who have helped,

[kneedownnate]

Good deal man!