Topic: Biodiesel tech

[BLACKDOG]

Discussion started in WT's $300 thread, I'm hoping for some more information.  I found this from freds40
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=9259.msg92270#msg92270  Reply #68

and I know Red has run biodiesel before.  Red, didn't you build your own biodiesel mixing setup?  How/what did you use/what is the process, etc.  I'm seriously considering doing this, and would like to to get some details

Also, here is the start of the discussion in WT's thread
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=2547.msg536363#msg536363

[Homefries]

I think this is the setup that they used on Trucks abouyt a year ago when they had featured it on the show.  Doesn't seem to be that hard to make.

http://www.homebiodieselkits.com/

[jrock]

This is a grrrrrrreat alternative fuel. I wish I had space for a mixing system.

[WHITE_TRASH]

Good call on starting this thread.  It could lead to a good amount of great info on this topic as we get farther into it.


If you look back a few months to the November '07 issue of petersens 4 wheel Don Scott the technical engineer for the national biodiesel Board wrote a letter to the editor concerning their article on running veggie vs bio.

I couldn't find the letter in the archives but Ill type it word for word for your benefit.


     I guess no one read my letter the editor in response to Gale Bank's quote in your magazine about biodiesel a few issues back.  If you had, Jerrod Jones' latest article, "fry Cooker" (sept, '07). would have the benefit of more accurate facts.
     There are more that 1.000 retail stations nationwide currently selling biodiesel blends.  These blends  rance from 2 to 99 percent biodiesel content, though 20 percent is most common and bear the blessing of engine manufacturers.  All biodiesel that is sold commercially must meet the ASTM specification and be registered with EPA as a legal motor fuel. Vegetable oil does not meerteither of these requirements.  Biodiesel is a uniform fuel and can be burned in any diesel engine with no modification.  It does, indeed, burn cleaner that petroleum diesel. The comp that sell vegetable-oil kits will tell you vegetable oil burns cleanly, but then they'll point you to data that came from our tests on biodiesel.  It is unclear whether vegetable-oil conversions kits are in compliance with the clean air act.

     There are currently 148 plants producing biodiesel across the country. That number is expected to increase to 244 plants within 18 months. Those plants will have a total production capacity of 1.89 billion gallons per year. These independent biodiesel producers and the associated economic development are predicted to create 40,000 U.S. jobs. It is still a small industry compared to traditional oil refineries.  Accurate reporting will help biodiesel compete with those "oil barons," as Jerrod put it. You might say 40,000 jobs depend on you getting the story straight. Your readers also deserve accurate information so they know what fuels they can burn without damaging their vehicles, violating clear air standards, or getting in hot water over fuel tax evasion.  I've been a reader and driver for more than a dozen years. I work on my own trucks, I have even burned my share of straight vegetable oil before I knew better. The National Biodiesel Board is a non-profit organization. We would be happy to work with  your staff providing accurate information on biodiesel. We work with the engine manufacturers on their latest biodiesel projects.




Ok, How can anyone read that and understand what the guy is saying without seeing the leftist tactics underlying in there?   If you burn veggie oil you can get arrested for tax evasion!  You might get busted by the clean air authority from burning veggie oil!  If you don't buy from us you may cost 40,000 jobs!!  If you burn veggie oil you might damage your engine!  I love reading stuff like this.  It saddens me that there are people that will resort to these tactics but hey, what do I know? 

[BLACKDOG [OP]]

just going through this right now, but looks like it might have some good stuff

http://www.epa.gov/region09/waste/biodiesel/index.html

some basic government regs

http://www.azurebiodiesel.com/GovRegs.shtml

[94MtnYote]

 People run their trucks and equipment on straight greisel in warm climates all the time.

[FIREBALL]

I've been doing a ton of research on this for the last year or so too. Beware, those bio machines aren't as easy to run as Trucks made it look like. I'm not trying to discourage anyone but know ahead of time that there is a lot of chemistry involved and hands on time during the processing. There are also many differant types of machines out there, ie. appleseed processor, fuelmeister, etc. Some sound great until you do some serious research and find out guys that have tried them had nothing but problems. The appleseed seems to be pretty well like.
If you've got the money and don't feel like messing with all the mad scientist stuff check out the biopro 190. It takes a little longer to make a batch but you only have about 20min hands on time, otherwise it's fully automated.
I'm sick and tired of giving my hard earned money to fat cats and terrorists!!

[BLACKDOG [OP]]

I've been doing a ton of research on this for the last year or so too. Beware, those bio machines aren't as easy to run as Trucks made it look like. I'm not trying to discourage anyone but know ahead of time that there is a lot of chemistry involved and hands on time during the processing. There are also many differant types of machines out there, ie. appleseed processor, fuelmeister, etc. Some sound great until you do some serious research and find out guys that have tried them had nothing but problems. The appleseed seems to be pretty well like.
If you've got the money and don't feel like messing with all the mad scientist stuff check out the biopro 190. It takes a little longer to make a batch but you only have about 20min hands on time, otherwise it's fully automated.
I'm sick and tired of giving my hard earned money to fat cats and terrorists!!

I pmd red, and asked him to chime in on this.  I really think that a while back he was running biodiesel, and had made his own setup, w/o a lot of difficulty, and A LOT cheaper than those other companies. 


did a quick search for the biopro190    Don't have 8K to spend  

This has link has some good stuff though

http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/index.php

[94MtnYote]

 I've seen biodiesel processors on craigslist for $1600, still a lot of money though. The glycerin has to be removed which can then be used to make soap.

[Duffil]

I've seen biodiesel processors on craigslist for $1600, still a lot of money though. The glycerin has to be removed which can then be used to make soap.

and of course, Nitroglycerin...if you've seen Fight Club.

[red]

sorry blackdog i wasnt home yesturday, out wheelin.

yep i made my own for a couple months before i sold my 89 f250 diesel (7.3 non powerstroke) and its easier than it sounds to produce. if you want to save money you can build your own from a water heater for about 300 bucks, assuming you use an old water heater but if you use a new one it will cost you a little more. i used a 20 gallon water heater. replaced both heater elements with 120 volt ones (only plugs i had access to), made sure it was water tight and that the plumbing was still intact. the processor i'm going to be talking about is called an appleseed, do a google search for that and you'll see plenty of pics of other people's setups.

once your water heater is ready go to harbor freight and get the little blue pump they have, 1" plumbing connections and only costs about 25 bucks. can go with another brand or pump but make sure its a 1" diameter fitting and that it can handle some not so clean fluid because you will have so nasty thick fluid running through it. bilge pump is best but they're not cheap. going to need a couple valves for the plumbing, a place to plug in the water heater and the pump, and a fair amount of 1" diameter pipe. pvc, steel, copper that works but stay away from galvanized as much as you can. the biodiesel will pick up the zinc from the galvanized pipe and can deposite it inside your motor, only seen that be an issue though if you've gone over 300k miles on pure biodiesel its such a small transfer.

heres a basic rundown of how i would refine the bio.
1. go to the restaurant and pic up the old veggy oil (got mine from long john silvers, find a place that changes their oil as often as possible and is not watery, less water and the more often its changed the better). i had a 55 gal oil drum sitting back there and another one sitting in the bed of my truck, would pump the old veggy oil from the one sitting at the restaurant to the one in my bed, took about 20-30 minutes usually.

2. once home pump the veggy oil into the water heater. once everything was in the tank you close that valve (one that lets you poor the oil into the water heater) and open another valve so the veggy oil can flow through the pump, through a 2 diesel fuel filter/water seperator line, then back into the heater. before you start the pump turn on the water heater elements (set them to about 140F) and let it warm up for about 10-20 minutes, depending on what size tank you are using and the ambient temp outside. turn the pump on and let it cycle for 30-45 minutes, your going to be replacing those filters and draining the water seperator just about every single batch so make sure you locate that plumbing in an easy to reach area.

3. get a small batch, 1/2 a gallon or a gallon outside of the tank, this is going to be your sample batch (yes you have to do this with every batch you make). turn the pump off and the heater elements off as well. measure the ph of the sample batch (a titration kit is best here) and check the chart to see how much methanol and lye is required for that ph. mix the methanol and lye (wear the safety gear), then add the mixture to the sample batch. mix it well then let it sit (i let mine sit for 8 hours minimum) then check the sample. if the 2 layers are seperated and the bio is the correct amber color sitting on top of a black layer (glycerine) then the sample went perfect. take the measurement of methanol/lye, multiply it out to the amount needed for the rest of the batch, reheat the tank to 140 and poor the methanol/lye mix in. pump it through for 30-45 minutes (not through the filters, an unfiltered line running from the bottom of the tank, through the pump, then dumping back into the top of the tank). turn off the pump and the heater elements, let it sit for 3-4 days so it has time to settle. turn on the pump and start pumping the glycerine out (thick and black) into a differant storage tank, 5 gallon bucket or whatever works just fine. after the glycerine is gone there will be one of 2 things starting to pump out.
1. biodiesel. if thats the case transfer the line to your trucks fuel tank or your finished fuel storage tank and pump it there. or you can run it through the filter/water seperator line a few more times just to make sure its as clean as possible, better to do that with the processor than your trucks fuel filters because its easier to work with.
2. a soapy mix. the more water in the veggy oil the more soapy mix you will get. you can either pump this into the glycerine storage tank, or turn the pump off and let it sit for a few more days then try again. that soapy stuff is the veggy oil/methanol/lye/water mix that hasnt seperated.

thats it to make your own biodiesel. to get rid of the glycerine you can either take it to a company that will use it, or mix it with kitty litter and take it to the dump.

no truck modifications required but i would HIGHLY recommend spare fuel filters, or getting an aftermarket fuel filter setup that will filter at least 5 microns, 2 is better that is in an easily accessed area. biodiesel is an excellent cleaner and i guarantee that it will clean your tanks and fuel system out, i went through 8 filters in 2 months but after that roughly 1 filter every 2 months. 94 and older diesels will need their rubber fuel lines replaced with synthetic, bio eats rubber over time and will start leaking because of it.

i ran b100 (pure bio) in 40F and warmer weather with no issues and b50 if it was going to get colder than that. bio jells at a higher temp than petroleum diesel, right around 32F is when bio will start jelling. that is something you really dont want to happen to your diesel, clogs your entire fuel system including the lift pump and injection pump ($$$$). your motor will run alot quieter, expecially the older non common-rail injected diesels. exhaust is gonna smell like wherever you get your veggy oil from, for me i smelled fried seafood and french fries when i was at red lights.

[red]

the only really difficult part is makeing sure your chemistry is correct with the methanol/lye mix. reason for the heater elements is to make the veggy oil flow faster, easier on the pump and lets it go through the filters faster. speeds up the chemical reaction as well. go higher than 140F and you start running the risk of fire with the methanol when its in the tank, that would be really ugly. 120F works as well, above 160F is when the fire can happen. what gets you with cost is all the little stuff adds up. 15 dollar valve here, another there, etc it adds up to about $300 for the usual cost. i got my waterheater and a metal scrap yard for 20 bucks, if you use an old water heater those elements can be a pain in the ass to unscrew so be forewarned.

full hands on time once the processor is made, about 40 minutes your 1st few batches and about 20-25 minutes once you've got your rythem down. flip a switch, turn a few valves, then plug in the pump. come back in 30-45 minutes, turn it off, unplug the pump and close the valves and let it sit again. the titration testing sounds alot more difficult than it is but make sure to wear the gloves/apron and a face shield or at least glasses wouldnt be a bad idea. lye will give you bad chemical burns, keep some vinegar nearby when your dealing with it for just in case (neutralizes it).

the processor i made was basic. you can get fancy and add a fuel drying station as well but i didnt run that. what a drying station does is it lets the biodiesel sit for a little while so any water thats left can settle out. water is your enemy with using used veggy oil, more water mixed with the veggy oil the more you have to remove. can boil the water out if its a small enough batch, but the obvious risk there to me was not worth it. running it through the filters/water seperator setup a couple more times before i put it in the tank made it easier and i never had any issues driving. i let the biodiesel (after i'd already gotten the soap and glycerine out of the water heater) cycle through the filter setup for about 30 minutes before i would pump it into my fuel tank.

you can also do a methanol recovery setup to cut your cost even further, basicly you boil it out of the glycerine and recover roughly 50% of the methanol to use again later. my cost before the methanol recovery, usually 85 cents a gallon was my average. with the cost of methanol and lye up your looking at about a dollar a gallon right now. with the methanol recovery my cheapest batch was 45 cents a gallon, usually 50-55 cents.

problem now though is restaurants are either starting to charge for the veggy oil pickup, or somebody has already gotten that restaurant. need to put the processor in a well ventilated area, mine was outside with a roof over my head (no walls). processor itself wont make any fumes, but the methanol will.

complicated? its high school level chemistry. the lye mixes with part of the veggy oil to become bio, the rest of the veggy oil becomes glycerine. the methanol is a catalyst, not used up in the reaction. roughly 80% of each batch becomes biodiesel, so 20 gallons of veggy oil 16 gallons should become bio (give or take a little bit depending on how much water is in the mix).



those steps work with veggy oil, canola oil, etc etc. when i'm done with the air force in a couple years i'm thinking about messing with biodiesel from the engineered algae, the fuel grows much much faster. there is also thermodepolymerization, basicly breaks down trash into a few parts. water, a form of diesel fuel, and a salt are what comes out. tyson chicken has a contract in oregon with a company thats doing that with the chicken carcasses.

running straight veggy oil, cheapest form of fuel but requires modifications and DOES have a setback that bio doesnt. you can run a percentage of pure veggy oil in your motor without heating it, depends on the outside air temps and what motor you have (powerstroke is very picky for some reason, bad idea with that motor). to run pure veggy oil though you need a 2 fuel tank system in your vehicle. 1 tank with regular or biodiesel for the startup/shutdown time, about 10-15 minutes each. the other tank with heaters installed in it for the veggy oil. also requires heating the fuel line and the filter in colder climates. need to run the engine on regular or bio diesel for the last 10-15 minutes to clean the fuel lines out from the veggy oil, pumps arent very happy to try to run thick cold veggy oil through and will kill the pumps FAST.

downside to straight veggy though is the acidity of oil that has been heated many times. if your going to run straight veggy make sure you get your oil from somebody that changes the oil often. where the acidity comes into effect is with the lift pump, injection pump, and injectors, they will slowly be eaten apart internally. lift pump not a huge deal, about 100 bucks usually and not too difficult to replace. injectors a little bit more but same problem. injection pump though, expecially on a V style motor, big money and expensive to replace, looking at 1500-2800 for a shop to do it or 500-1200 for a pump and doing it yourself which is not fun. including the filters your looking at about 20 cents a gallon for veggy oil because there is no chemistry involved, processing is just filtering it a couple times to get the food particles out and water as well. conversion though can get pricy, cheapest setup i know of the guy has spent about 400 bucks so not bad, other setups can run over 5k.

[red]

TAXES, this depends on your state so you need to check your local laws. state of Texas used to say that 10,000 gallons or less per year no taxes must be paid. a drop more though and you must pay taxes on all of it and you MUST KEEP RECORDS OF HOW MUCH YOU MAKE.

biodiesel is great, problem is with our current way of making it we cant meet the demand to replace petroleum fuel. biodiesel from algae can, at the rate it produces the oil (similar to veggy oil) 166,000 acres in the sealed system would meet the demand for the entire US to run a diesel vehicles at our current population. that "algae farm" could be located in the middle of the desert because its a sealed system, wouldnt take up the farm land as our current method does.

[DTB]

what about hemp oil?

I know its illegal (for many reasons including lobbying from oil, textile, paper/logging industries for their own interests) but I think its a viable source. any thoughts from the experts on this?

[red]

possible though i honestly have no idea. so long as it makes a fluid that when compressed to 18:1 is explosive then it could work. diesel engines arent too picky about what they're running unlike a gasoline engine. if you can get a substance similar to veggy oil from hemp then i see no reason why it wouldnt work but it will reach the same production rate problem as the plants currently used. would require almost all of our available farming land to produce enough fuel for the current diesel demand, not to mention those who drive gasoline vehicles right now who would switch over to diesel.

[BLACKDOG [OP]]

  THANK YOU RED!! 

the link I posted from utahbiodiesel actual sells the plans to make the appleseed  processor, I think that is prolly the way I'll go when I get around to it. Hopefully the beginning of this summer

[red]

no problem let me know if you have anymore questions, i'll be unable to get to a computer from march 18th-mid may though haha.

[FIREBALL]

Yep, like I said, you can build a processor or even buy one relatively cheap, but make sure you know what you're getting into first. There is a pretty fair amount of man hours that goes into making a batch and getting the chemistry down right is paramount.
If you don't mind the time, and you're willing to take the time to do it right go for it!! I'm too lazy to do the mad scientist bit so when I do, do it, I think I'm going to spring for the big buck machine that's pretty much idiot proof (i need that)

[kneedownnate]

Thanks for starting this thread jason   I missed a home bio-diesel brew kit on craigslist for $300 because I didn't have the cash   I still hope to get an older toy diesel hilux at some point and make my own fuel.  I think even a poorly running 81-83 diesel hilux will still get atleast 35mpg, while other's I've talked to have got mid-high 40's, so if you can make your fuel for less than half that you'll be waaaay ahead!

Also, for those considering doing this for their toys, there's a great outlet here for toyota diesels  http://toyotadiesel.com/forums/

[BLACKDOG [OP]]

Site for checking out your local laws and incentives for alternative fuels. 

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/fuels/biodiesel_laws.html

Pretty good reading here:
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/40555.pdf


It is now my understanding that for the most part, as long as you pay the necessary taxes expected from you for your use of diesel fuel, you can make your own biodiesel.  Here is a link showing fuel tax for March '08.  Even if I had to pay the .27 state tax, and the .24 fed tax, that would still put me at 1.50-1.80 a gal.  I can handle that

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/petroleum_marketing_monthly/current/pdf/enote.pdf

Red,
A lot of the things I am reading are claiming that B100 reduces engine power and fuel economy up to 20%   You havent mentioned anything that extreme that I recall, just a small decrease.  Can you elaborate a bit?

[abnormaltoy]

what about hemp oil?

Old bong water?

I was directed to this thread last night. I'm just in the dreaming stage of getting into diesel, the possibilities are almost endless. I have tons of questions, mostly incredibly newbie style questions.

One for now would be...how does bio or wvo compare to pump fuel as far as cetane goes...can the same compression rations be run or...higher or lower?

The methanol used in the conversion process, can it be reclaimed in any useful form? It seems a shame to throw all that away when it could potentially be re-used in a water/methanol injection system.

At the end of the process, what becomes of the lye? Is it converted to some inert compound. is it still toxic/caustic if so, how is it disposed of?

What kind of numbers are we talking about here...out of, say 100 gallons of waste oil...how much waste lye, methanol, glycerin is there to store or dispose of?

[BLACKDOG [OP]]

Old bong water?

I was directed to this thread last night. I'm just in the dreaming stage of getting into diesel, the possibilities are almost endless. I have tons of questions, mostly incredibly newbie style questions.

One for now would be...how does bio or wvo compare to pump fuel as far as cetane goes...can the same compression rations be run or...higher or lower?

The methanol used in the conversion process, can it be reclaimed in any useful form? It seems a shame to throw all that away when it could potentially be re-used in a water/methanol injection system.

At the end of the process, what becomes of the lye? Is it converted to some inert compound. is it still toxic/caustic if so, how is it disposed of?

What kind of numbers are we talking about here...out of, say 100 gallons of waste oil...how much waste lye, methanol, glycerin is there to store or dispose of?

Some of those links have all the answers to those questions.

1) I believe the reason bio or wvo works is because it has a very similar compression ratio to diesel.  I could be way off, but I believe it is somewhere around 18:1? 

2) Some of the methanol can be reused.  In one of the links, there are instructions available for purchase to build your own biodiesel mixer out of an old water heater.  Those instructions include a setup for methanol reclamation.

3) Through the conversion process, there is no left over lye, to my understanding.  The only waste substance is the glycerin.  You can use it as fertilizer, soap, and you can simply throw it away   just set it out, let it dry, and toss it.  Not always the best option, but you can do it (from my understanding)  You can also check with landscape companies, I've heard of many of them being more than happy to take your glycerin (even buy it from you) and use it.

4)  I don't know

[abnormaltoy]

To tell the truth...I'm disappointed in your answer! I wanted you to do all the reading, sort the info and catagorize it for me!

I'm also very, very interested in algae/bio-diesel. I think some thing like that, especially if it can be used with out further chemical processing (ie, just cold pressing the oil from the algae), would be just the ticket. We have plenty-o-sun out here and could rotate the crop several times a year.

[BLACKDOG [OP]]

To tell the truth...I'm disappointed in your answer! I wanted you to do all the reading, sort the info and catagorize it for me!

I'm also very, very interested in algae/bio-diesel. I think some thing like that, especially if it can be used with out further chemical processing (ie, just cold pressing the oil from the algae), would be just the ticket. We have plenty-o-sun out here and could rotate the crop several times a year.

Hey, at least I paraphrased for you!! 

[red]

jason i've read those claims as well yet i and nobody that i know of has actually lost anywhere near that power or fuel economy. average is about 2-3mpg loss if any, and maybe 10-15 lbs/ft of torque lost. you have it right about the methanol and lye, can recover an amount of the methanol (all of it if your patient enough but that could take a few weeks per batch) and the lye is used up in the reaction.

to answer the question about 100 gallons of veggy oil, on average you lose roughly 20% to glycerine so you would get about 80 gallons of fuel and 20 gallons of glycerine.