Topic: Shifter popping out of first gear!

[Evrgrnmtnman]

Okay, some history first on my 88 Pickup 22re/w56.. I had the transmission totally rebuilt by a reputable toyotat mechanic 47K ago, spending $1,600.00. Few months ago it started poping out of first gear at low speeds or slowing down, now it will rarely pop out of 4th gear, but not much.
I have replaced the shifter bushing and seat, but that did not fix the problem. There is no grinding no noise, ride and drives good going down the road. When my hand is on the shifter and I'm slowing or torqueing down I can feel the shifter wanting to pop out. What am I missing or was this just a lousy rebuild?
Thanks?
CJ

[daniresch]

Sounds like synchros are wearing out. 1st and 4th are only going to get worse. pretty soon you'll have to hold it in first gear at low speed and at slowing down all the time. and 4th gear you will loose completely. was there any warranty on the work done?

[Evrgrnmtnman [OP]]

Sounds like synchros are wearing out. 1st and 4th are only going to get worse. pretty soon you'll have to hold it in first gear at low speed and at slowing down all the time. and 4th gear you will loose completely. was there any warranty on the work done?

The warranty was only a 4k or 3 month.....not good for someone that is in our 4x4 club.......he wants $350 just to take it down and look at it........should have bought a Marlin like I was going too........live and learn

[emsvitil]

You can try replacing the detent springs for the shifter.

[Evrgrnmtnman [OP]]

You can try replacing the detent springs for the shifter.

Detent Springs??? More info please?

[BigMike]

Detent Springs??? More info please?

Clicky: http://www.marlincrawler.com/hardware-tools/hardware/heavy-duty-shift-spring




EDIT: Sorry just read the opening post. The spring above is for a transfer case, but the same applies.

Popping out of first gear is most likely the sign of a worn out center bearing retainer plate. I don't believe the retainer is a serviceable item and therefore I think most rebuild shops just slap it on and reinstall it without shimming or replacing it with a heavier duty unit (like we would since we manufacture them). It could also be a worn shift hub or a wasted counter shaft bearing but you'd certainly have hoped those to have been properly inspected & serviced by a rebuilder. None of these can be fixed with external repairs such as our HD seat/socket and HD springs. They can help, but are more like a band-aid for a problem that will only get worse.

Have you checked for anything more obvious such as interference between the shifter and the boot, or the boot and the cab? How about a broken motor or transfer case mount that is allowing the drive train to rock so much that it pushes the shifter up against the boot or body thereby popping it out of gear? I've also seen a rusted rear drive line slip joint cause a transmission to pop out of gear by pushing or pulling the drivetrain forward or rearward based on power or coast conditions. I've also seen a broken shift handle spring, the spring that is concentric with the handle and preloads the handle ball into the transmission seat. Without this the handle could flop around and provide means for the transmission to come out of gear. How about a 3" or 4" body lift placing the bend of the handle at an unnatural position too close to the interior boot and/or body.

When you say you've replaced the seat and socket, were these just OEM pieces or our Heavy Duty ones? (see here)

The first thing I'd do it remove your interior boot so all you see is the shift handle and its small shift handle base boot (keep the base boot on so ya won't have gear oil splashing all over the place). Then watch the handle closely to see what is causing it to pop out: Is the handle moving directly into the body? Does it no longer pop out with the interior boot removed? Is the transmission itself moving all over the place and causing the handle to jam up against the body?

Good luck!
BigMike

[Evrgrnmtnman [OP]]

Mike,
Thanks for that information I'll try all this. I replaced the bushing and seat from parts I got at a Toyota Dealership...This all started after a very cold winter night here in the mtns of Colorado, the next morning I was having a hard time getting it out of gear that I had left it in overnight. Maybe I forced something to break doing that?
Cj

[Wainiha]

Regarding syncros as daniresch suggested...... Has anyone ever heard that GL5 gear has sulfur in it for lubrication properties? 

 If it contacts water the sulfur will turn to sulfuric acid and eat the brass syncros.

Read this on TTORA.  Teryx started a thread discussing gear oils.  The thought was Redline MT90, a GL4(no sulfur) was the way to go.

I bought in, and that is what I run in the tranny.

[emsvitil]

Popping out of first gear is most likely the sign of a worn out center bearing retainer plate. I don't believe the retainer is a serviceable item and therefore I think most rebuild shops just slap it on and reinstall it without shimming or replacing it with a heavier duty unit (like we would since we manufacture them). It could also be a worn shift hub or a wasted counter shaft bearing but you'd certainly have hoped those to have been properly inspected & serviced by a rebuilder. None of these can be fixed with external repairs such as our HD seat/socket and HD springs. They can help, but are more like a band-aid for a problem that will only get worse.

The stock center bearing retaining plate on a W56 should be fine.   My W56b was a nice machined iron plate...........

[BigMike]

The stock center bearing retaining plate on a W56 should be fine.   My W56b was a nice machined iron plate...........

I will wager to say that every single W56 and W59 that has come through our doors has had a worn our center bearing retainer plate. We mic and immediately discard any piece that fails inspection. It's this very reason which prompted us to manufacture our own plates (see here and here) but we haven't released a W-series plate yet but do have plans to eventually.

Part of the problem is with the main and counter shaft bearings and is why Toyota redesigned the bearings in the later model W59 Tacoma transmissions with a higher axial load rating. Needless to say the Maximum Capacity bearings we use in our Heavy Duty rebuilds far exceed the axial rating of even the upgraded W59 bearings. As the bearing wears it allows more lateral movement.

The other part and larger contributor to the problem is with the center plate wearing out. As the bearings push into the retainer plate for many, many miles, the plate begins to bow and looses contact with the outer race of both bearings (main & counter shafts). Once the plate bows and a gap forms between it and the bearing race, the issue gets worse exponentially with mileage to the point that the main shaft moves laterally in the case. Because the shift forks are mounted to and fixed in place with the case, what happens is the shaft moves without the shift fork and the shaft itself positions the shift collar away from its mated gear thus "popping" it out of gear.

One of the most time consuming facets of our transmission rebuilds revolves around the center bearing retainer plate and the modifications we do to accommodate our stronger bearings. A great deal of focus is done here and is a major contributor to why our transmissions last so long. In my opinion if Cj's rebuilder simply slapped the worn out center plate back in place 47k miles ago without performing any supporting modifications to reduce or as we do eliminate free-play, then I believe this would be a very plausible cause to his shifting issues he is experiencing today.

Of course this isn't to say that even a pristine center bearing plate can't last 47k miles as we know stock original units can go 200k+ with only minor caveats. Maybe his plate had a lot of previous wear? Hopefully, however, it is something external like the interior boot bunching up between the shift handle and the body.

Regards,
BigMike

[emsvitil]

I will wager to say that every single W56 and W59 that has come through our doors has had a worn our center bearing retainer plate. We mic and immediately discard any piece that fails inspection. It's this very reason which prompted us to manufacture our own plates (see here and here) but we haven't released a W-series plate yet but do have plans to eventually.

Interesting, my center plate didn't show any signs of wear when I rebuilt my transmission at 160k miles.   
 
The bearings were definitely worn out.
 
BTW, I used your HD W56b kit............