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normtomlins

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pinion play...
« on: Apr 14, 2003, 12:04:16 PM »
I took out my rear drive shaft and notice that when I turned the  pinion.  It moves in and out, feels like it's sliding up the ring gear...

There is no side to side play, or up or down..

Any idea's what could be going on with it?  And how I fix it?  


Norm


« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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Rock_Starr

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #1 on: Apr 14, 2003, 01:44:46 PM »
Hey Norm,
try posting this in the tech section for better results. :chug:

But to answer the question. . . there are three things that could have happened. In order of likely-hood:
Actually  . . .  have the gears been worked on ever? and how much movement are we talking about?
(new ratio, locker install)
If so it may be that one of the pinion races wasnt seated completely or that the pinion nut was improperly secured.  
If not the crush sleeve may have colapsed, or one of the bearings may have failed.
The more information you can give the more accurate i can be.

None the less welcome to the board.
Red Starr
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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84runner

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #2 on: Apr 15, 2003, 07:20:04 AM »
Ya give us some background on the gears in there, how long, what kind of milage, open or locked? That would realy help
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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normtomlins [OP]

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #3 on: Apr 15, 2003, 01:31:53 PM »
The truck is a 1985 4Runner, I have been offroading it for about a 3 years now.   And I have just finished installing my Marlin 4.7 Gears (#800) and figured I better fix the pinion before I break something with the extra low range.

It has a open diff, stock 4.37 gears from a Automatic, the truck has about 350,000 Km on it  

« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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Rock_Starr

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #4 on: Apr 16, 2003, 06:24:26 AM »
There are two thing that could have happened.
Either the pinion nut backed off or the bearings are failing.  Based on your mileage would suspect the later.
To confirm that the pinion bearings have gone out, pull the drain plug on the diff and drain the gear oil if it isn't obvious that there is metal in the oil run a magnet around in the oil. Ill bet that the gear oil has a nice metallic luster to it though.  You can save yourself some coin by pulling the third yourself and taking it to a reputable local rear end shop. It is pretty straight forward let us know if you want the run down.
These are very reliable rearends however, 200k miles is fair amount especially if the gear oil hasn't been changed.
I don't mean to be condescending I just want to be thorough.:brush:
RS
And further discription of the play in the pinion would be usefull.  (in which directions and how much)
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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84runner

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #5 on: Apr 16, 2003, 11:59:32 AM »
Ya bearing failure sounds like the part, but see of the punch on  the pinion bolt is in the groove on pinion gear. either way I would bet those bearings need some attention
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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normtomlins [OP]

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #6 on: Apr 16, 2003, 04:37:02 PM »
:down: Okay, let look at the following possibility's,

1) Crush Sleeve is screwed....Can I pull the Pinion seal and get at the crush sleeve?   Install a new Crush sleeve or a steel one, and a new pinion seal, reinstall the nut..

2) Bearings are gone...   Can I buy new bearings and races and just replace them ... Ie: Press off the old ones and press in the new ones, and do all pinions use the same size bearings?  Or must I do all the backlash / gear mesh stuff when I replace bearings.

« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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Rock_Starr

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #7 on: Apr 16, 2003, 05:04:21 PM »
It isnt the crush sleeve and if it was you couldnt do what your talkin about because you cant set preload with the carrier in.  Check the gear oil. This will confirm the bearings condition (if they are very bad at least).  And sorry but nope  you cant replace the bearings with out having to set the gear back up b,c you have to remove the carrier which will mess the position because toyota uses adjusters not spacers.
and yes the replacement bearings would be identical but the crush sleeve would need to be replaced and set.
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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WHITE_TRASH

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #8 on: Apr 16, 2003, 05:15:34 PM »
replacing the outer bearing is easy.  pull the pinion nut and the flange, pull the seal.  this will allow you to pull the outer bearing.  if the bearing and or race looks fine ie.  not brinneled or gouged in any way it is probobly the crush sleeve.  this is easy to replace and set.  slide the new on into positon and replace all the parts to set the crush sleeve you tighten the pinion nut to a set torque (sorry i cant recall the foot#)  and its done.
if everything apears ok in the bearing and sveeve dept.  i would stop there and pull the whole 3rd.  
1.  pull the e-brake pins and the brake lines 10mm wrench put rubber vaccum caps on the end of the lines.
2.  pull the 4, 14mm nuts that hold the axles in place and slide the axles out at least 6 in.  (you should pull them all the way and replace the axle seals.)
3.  pull the 10,  12mm nuts that hold the 3rd in place (you will probobly have to hit the bottom of the 3rd with a dead blow hammer to get it to release) pull the 3rd all the way out.
4.  with the 3rd on the bench check the ring gear for wear ie.  knife edged teeth wear on the carrier etc.
hopefully all looks good if not take it to a reputable shop for repairs.
Good luck!! :thumb:
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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Rock_Starr

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #9 on: Apr 17, 2003, 10:49:38 AM »
white trash i would disagree that the pinion crush sleeve can be set with the carrier in place. The pinion nut tread friction as well as variances in the crush sleeve prevent preload from accuratly being set by torqing the nut to XX ft/lbs or Nm.  To do it correctly the carrier MUST be removed.

I wont disagee that the crush sleeve may be the source of the problem, how ever open diffs would not lend the truck to get into areas where the pinion flange could be struck by something in such a manner that it would further crush the sleeve.
RS
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #10 on: Apr 17, 2003, 11:12:30 AM »
good point on the preload :thumb: but ive got 10 dead 3rds that will disagree with not being able to get hurt and crush the sleeve! :smack:  where theres a will theres a way! :oops:
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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84runner

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #11 on: Apr 17, 2003, 11:37:13 AM »
                                    This is for toyota 4cyl 8in.
It don't matter how much or how little you torq the pinion nut, but you do have to crush the sleeve. The concern is in the pinion preload, The amount of force needed to turn the pinion.  Preload on used 4wd bearings should be between 7.8-11.3 in.-lbs. This can be checked while the 3rd member is in the vehicle and only the driveline removed, with vehicle on the ground. All you need is the amount of backlash between the ring and pinion to check this preload setting.

Rock_Star I would have to agree with White_trash that you can set a crush sleeve while the carrier is in place. But not just by torqing down the nut cause of all the variances like you said. You would have to crush the sleeve slowly and check the pinion preload as you go, so your careful not to overlaod the pinion bearings. And the pinion prelaod for new 4wd bearings is between 16.5-22.6 in.-lb. And all the room you need to check this is just the backlash between the ring and pinion. And torq specs for the pinion nut on a 4wd is 145-253 ft-lb.  

But a concern that I have is pinion depth.  No matter if its the bearings or the crush sleeve you will have to replace the crush sleeve once you open it up. Now if you replace the bearing on the pinion you would be changing the pinion depth. Ya it's realy not alot, but the shims used to set pinion depth are measured in thousands of an inch. So this would change your gear pattern. Which in worst case can lead to gear noise and gear failure.

I hope this helps you and saves you time and money.
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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Rock_Starr

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #12 on: Apr 17, 2003, 12:35:08 PM »
WT " I wont disagee that the crush sleeve may be the source of the problem, however open diffs would not lend the truck to get into areas where the pinion flange could be struck by something in such a manner that it would further crush the sleeve. " I just don't think the truck is being driven in a manner that would be conducive to it being crush. I know it can happen though.

Quote
                                   
Rock_Star I would have to agree with White_trash that you can set a crush sleeve while the carrier is in place. But not just by torqing down the nut cause of all the variances like you said. You would have to crush the sleeve slowly and check the pinion preload as you go, so your careful not to overlaod the pinion bearings. And the pinion prelaod for new 4wd bearings is between 16.5-22.6 in.-lb. And all the room you need to check this is just the backlash between the ring and pinion. And torq specs for the pinion nut on a 4wd is 145-253 ft-lb.  

But a concern that I have is pinion depth.  No matter if its the bearings or the crush sleeve you will have to replace the crush sleeve once you open it up. Now if you replace the bearing on the pinion you would be changing the pinion depth. Ya it's realy not alot, but the shims used to set pinion depth are measured in thousands of an inch. So this would change your gear pattern. Which in worst case can lead to gear noise and gear failure.

I hope this helps you and saves you time and money.

Yes i argee that you can set pinion predload in this manner.
However on toy 8"s pinion depth is set by spacers behind the inner pinion bearing and you wouldnt be moving this bearing at all to replace the outer bearing and CS which is what WT suggested.  And infact you can't really mess with the pinions position at all with the carrier in.  

Norm,
If I were you I would pull it and take it to a shop unless you feel comfortable setting up the gears.  You could run it until it dies but then you are looking at more damaged parts (more cost) and a possibly catastrophic failure (unsafe and potentially life threatening).  As a professional I would encourage you to spend the money and make it right. Look at it as a opportuity to upgrade to a L/S or Locker, or gear down with out having to pay for additional labor.
RS
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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84runner

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #13 on: Apr 18, 2003, 06:21:28 AM »
Rock_Star you are correct about the pinion depth. Now that I have a had a little more sleep I wont confuse things.  You are correct that by changing just the outer bearing you will not cahnge the pinion depth. I apologize Normtomlins for the miss understanding about the pinion depth. I got off on a tangent.  :sealed:
Good luck
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #14 on: Apr 18, 2003, 08:18:07 AM »
heck i was dead wrong about torqueing the pinion nut!  makes me wonder what i was thinking at the time.  on the bright side at least it only took three of us to get the point across!!!
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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Rock_Starr

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #15 on: Apr 19, 2003, 09:34:01 AM »
Hahaha, yeah How many Gear heads does it take to . . .
Oh well we got ya set straigh now Norm.
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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84runner

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #16 on: Apr 19, 2003, 06:43:40 PM »
Hey and make sure to keep us updated on what the exact cause of the play was, just curious. Thanks
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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normtomlins [OP]

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Re: pinion play...
« Reply #17 on: Apr 20, 2003, 01:51:32 PM »
I didn't get to pull the pinion apart this weekend.  Sorry guys, I did finish installing my NEW 4.7 Low range gears from Marlin # 800.... :up:


Put that baby in low.........and  :greengrin: :greengrin: :greengrin: :greengrin:

I am now think I need to make a traction bar to stop the wheel hop.  Do any of you have a cheap source for bushings and hem joints?

Norm
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by 1056988800 »
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