Author Topic: Toybrota's 22R build  (Read 35356 times)

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Toybrota

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #540 on: Apr 15, 2019, 07:04:42 PM »
T,

This is a long thread for having limited facts known, just my observation.

First, did you check and measure the mating surfaces for flatness?

I don’t care what LCE told you, there IS a torque spec, and I don’t know who at LCE told you that but its stupid!  The 22R intake manifold spec is 14 lbs.  In MY opinion and MY experience that factory torque spec is too light.  But, it is supported by a bracket... WHY do you think that is?  After working on 3 Toyota trucks, 2 22REs and 1 22R since 1986, I don’t agree with the factory specs in several cases… again JUST MY experience.

If you are just “snugging” those bolts and nuts, the manifold and plate is GOING TO LEAK!! That manifold hangs off the head, it probably weighs MORE that the factory carb and manifold. 

When I suggested to use Permatex High Performance Thread Sealer, I didn’t mean just on the threads. 

Regarding the Alumaseal, I should have suggested how to put in the radiator… but it is too late now.  It should only take about 30 minutes at freeway speeds to stop that leak…. BUT if the manifold and plate are moving due heat and vibration, and the torque pressure against those surfaces, with or with a gasket, is NOT sufficient - the Alumaseal may NOT work.

EDIT:  By the way..... how many manuals can you show me or have you ever seen that refers to or specs torque for ANYTHING on a Toyota 22R engine at "snug"?

Gnarls.
Hey Gnarls, I think you may be confused on which plate I'm talking about. My fault, I haven't sent any pictures.
This plate is NOT affected by the intake manifold to cylinder head gasket (or bolts, studs and nuts in my case)
This plate is on the bottom of the intake (pictured below) and is mounted with 8 M6 bolts.
I have not seen a torque spec anywhere, I've searched the FSM (maybe mine is missing it?).

I've also never seen a bar that attaches from the intake to block on the 22R. I've seen several on the RE. I'm also running a full intake stud kit, which helps distribute the load.

Where else do you recommend putting the thread sealant? Seems counter intuitive to use it as a gasket sealer?

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Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #541 on: Apr 15, 2019, 07:17:31 PM »
Some quick research....

Clipped from a 5 second Google search...  interesting?

People also ask
Do I need gasket sealer for intake manifold?
RTV, other sealants or adhesives should not be used around the coolant or intake ports on carrier-style gaskets. The only place RTV silicone may be required is to seal the area where the ends of the intake manifold gaskets mate with the end strip seals on the block under the intake manifold or valley cover.Jul 1, 2010
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #542 on: Apr 15, 2019, 07:22:49 PM »
I'd be curious what Offenhauser recommends for torque specs?  Can't find any information on Offenhauser site.

I got this a few minutes ago from Chat with Summit Racing.

25 lbs, go 3 lbs increments up to final at 33 lbs.  !!!  :yikes:

THAT in my opinion is too much... again just my experience and opinion.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #543 on: Apr 15, 2019, 07:41:01 PM »
Hey Gnarls, I think you may be confused on which plate I'm talking about.


Yep... I thought the leak was at the head, which was really puzzling.  My fault for not clarifying.  Your previous earlier photo was confusing for me.

OK... WAY different issue!!

Yes... those little screws should be carefully tightened. 

On my 22RE there is a bracket, no bracket on my 22R, right.  The point I was making is that there is weight hanging on the side of head.  BUT... your leak is NOT related to the manifold to head.

I'd still use the Permatex sealer and a gasket.  I'd torque them down 4 to 5 lbs.  You can recheck and retorque with the thread sealer up to 24 hours... one of the nice features of that sealer.  The sealer has "stickiness" to it that I think will work well to seal the plate to the bottom of that manifold.   :crossed:

I'd use a tightening sequence, like a cylinder head.

Sorry I was not aware of where your "leak" was coming from.  :smack:

My guess is that the plate may not be perfectly flat and may even flex somewhat during tightening?

Gnarls.  :disturbed:



« Last Edit: Apr 15, 2019, 07:50:08 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #544 on: Apr 15, 2019, 08:02:28 PM »
If joeyf and Gillesdetrail have had good luck with no gasket and RTV, I’d defer to their experience.  :thumbs:

I’d still use Permatex Thread Sealer and a gasket.  :gap:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #545 on: Apr 15, 2019, 08:06:55 PM »
If LCE is aware of issues with this manifold and sealing that plate, I'm surprised they didn't provide more information on sealing it from a coolant leak.  :dunno:

With that said, the boys at LCE know their poop!  :yesnod:

Gnarls.  :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #546 on: Apr 15, 2019, 08:23:10 PM »
Hey Gnarls, I think you may be confused on which plate I'm talking about.
Where else do you recommend putting the thread sealant? Seems counter intuitive to use it as a gasket sealer?


That plate and a leak would drive me nuts.

Not being able see it, I'm guessing the mating surface at the manifold is very narrow?

The amount surface area to seal the plate to the bottom of the manifold is minimal, so with the heat and pressure on the sealing areas, I'd go with whatever Offenhauser recommends.  If there are any defects, Offenhauser should warrantee their stuff.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #547 on: Apr 15, 2019, 08:40:49 PM »
That plate and a leak would drive me nuts.

Not being able see it, I'm guessing the mating surface at the manifold is very narrow?

The amount surface area to seal the plate to the bottom of the manifold is minimal, so with the heat and pressure on the sealing areas, I'd go with whatever Offenhauser recommends.  If there are any defects, Offenhauser should warrantee their stuff.

Gnarls.
I received an email from Tony at LCE. He had this to say about the surfaces: "We actually get these straight from the foundry quite rough.
Offy finish is horrible, so we do it here."
This means they resurface the intake at their shop, I'm assuming this applies to the bottom water plate as well.

I explained the methods I had used to seal it, and he was surprised. He recommended this: "If a gasket is giving you this much trouble, I would get a tube of Hi Temp Copper RTV Silicone 
Gasket Maker and use that with no gasket. I've used Ultra Grey with no issue, but Copper is called for coolant."
I think if the stop leak doesn't work, I'll try this. Coupled with the thread sealant you recommended.
It appears to be still leaking currently, but they say it takes up to 200 miles to seal. If it doesn't seal I'll do the aforementioned.


Crazy thought, what if I made a CNC machined intake for this truck? Two halves, completely custom. Only ports that I need. Ideas...


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Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #548 on: Apr 16, 2019, 04:32:24 AM »
.... This plate is on the bottom of the intake and is mounted with 8 M6 bolts.
I have not seen a torque spec anywhere, I've searched the FSM (maybe mine is missing it?). 

With those little screws I understand why LCE would say "just snug".  You don't want to break off or strip one of those screws.

This is good stuff for coolant…

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/ultra-series-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-copper-maximum-temperature-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker/

This spec looks better for coolant…

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-water-pump-thermostat-rtv-silicone-gasket/

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #549 on: Apr 16, 2019, 04:36:10 AM »
I received an email from Tony at LCE. He had this to say about the surfaces: "We actually get these straight from the foundry quite rough.
Offy finish is horrible, so we do it here."
This means they resurface the intake at their shop, I'm assuming this applies to the bottom water plate as well.

I explained the methods I had used to seal it, and he was surprised. He recommended this: "If a gasket is giving you this much trouble, I would get a tube of Hi Temp Copper RTV Silicone
Gasket Maker and use that with no gasket. I've used Ultra Grey with no issue, but Copper is called for coolant."
I think if the stop leak doesn't work, I'll try this. Coupled with the thread sealant you recommended.
It appears to be still leaking currently, but they say it takes up to 200 miles to seal. If it doesn't seal I'll do the aforementioned.


Crazy thought, what if I made a CNC machined intake for this truck? Two halves, completely custom. Only ports that I need. Ideas...


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I'm a fan of trying new things in the name of learning. I bet you'd learn a lot in the process. It would probably be more work than just welding the thing together, but sometimes more work isn't the point.

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #550 on: Apr 16, 2019, 05:00:51 AM »
I'm a fan of trying new things in the name of learning. I bet you'd learn a lot in the process. It would probably be more work than just welding the thing together, but sometimes more work isn't the point.

Yeah... I suppose you could tig weld it on.  I'd guess an expert tig welder experienced with alloy and aluminum would charge $100 to do it? 

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #551 on: Apr 16, 2019, 09:19:55 AM »
Yeah... I suppose you could tig weld it on.  I'd guess an expert tig welder experienced with alloy and aluminum would charge $100 to do it? 

Gnarls.
Probably more than that. I'd do it myself if I had a Tig machine. The welds wouldn't have to be deep penetrating either, just enough to seal.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #552 on: Apr 16, 2019, 11:31:54 AM »
What better time to pick up a Fronius MagicWave for only a modest amount more than the cost of an entire replacement engine?

Seriously, though, when enough jobs accumulate that require a tool I don't have, I usually end up getting anyway. Just a thought.

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #553 on: Apr 16, 2019, 02:51:22 PM »
What better time to pick up a Fronius MagicWave for only a modest amount more than the cost of an entire replacement engine?

Seriously, though, when enough jobs accumulate that require a tool I don't have, I usually end up getting anyway. Just a thought.
Exactly. Those Fronius machines are spendy!

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Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #554 on: Apr 16, 2019, 02:56:32 PM »
Exactly. Those Fronius machines are spendy!

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A tube of goop is WAY more frugal. :gap:

Gnarls. :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #555 on: Apr 17, 2019, 05:05:41 AM »
I've been told those can plug up radiators and heater cores. I've seen it happen once, which is hardly a huge sample size. But it's enough that the idea of using those gives me pause.

Yeah it seems like it could but I have never had it happen the half dozen times or so I have used it over the years.  One of those highly personal choices ;).
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #556 on: Apr 19, 2019, 10:48:58 AM »
Not much will be happening on this build for a few weeks. Experienced something interesting today though...

The temp on the freeway was fluctuating, from 170° - 210°. Turned the heat on, immediately stopped and went back to normal (170-195).
Sounds like air in the system to me... What do you all think?
Jumped back on the freeway, no issues whatsoever.


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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #557 on: Apr 19, 2019, 10:53:08 AM »
Sounds like you need to BURP it.  :yesnod:
Even the most primitive society, has an intimate respect for the insane.

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #558 on: Apr 19, 2019, 12:22:30 PM »
Not much will be happening on this build for a few weeks. Experienced something interesting today though...

The temp on the freeway was fluctuating, from 170° - 210°. Turned the heat on, immediately stopped and went back to normal (170-195).
Sounds like air in the system to me... What do you all think?
Jumped back on the freeway, no issues whatsoever.


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I think it's normal.... or the engine is about to blow up! :yikes:

Gnarls.  :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #559 on: Apr 22, 2019, 06:32:54 AM »
Well this was fun...
Hose got a hole in it somehow on my way to welding class. Last week of class, and OF COURSE I have stuff to get done so I don't fail.
Not sure how the leak started, I don't believe I blew the head gasket (just sprayed the coolant everywhere).
I'll have to do an open loop for the heater core line and fix it when I move.

Waiting for AAA. I love having the premier service but still have to talk to a stupid robot.

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emsvitil

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #560 on: Apr 22, 2019, 04:46:45 PM »
Why didn't you just shorten the hose and reattach?



 :cheese:
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #561 on: Apr 22, 2019, 04:55:17 PM »
Why didn't you just shorten the hose and reattach?



 :cheese:
The nipple on the heater core is severely messed up, from trying to remove the 33 year old hose when the motor went in. I'll need a new core.

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #562 on: Apr 22, 2019, 04:56:30 PM »
Got her filled back up, and the hose setup in a closed loop. Made bleeding the system easier! I could've just installed the plug on my intake and capped the other coolant port, but I would like the system to flow.
Works great so far.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #563 on: Apr 28, 2019, 08:05:02 PM »
Both my trucks have been picked up, being sent to my new home in Vancouver WA.
I'll see them later this week, I leave Salt Lake Sh**** on Thursday.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #564 on: Apr 28, 2019, 08:14:44 PM »
Both my trucks have been picked up, being sent to my new home in Vancouver WA.
I'll see them later this week, I leave Salt Lake Sh**** on Thursday.

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Happy travels.... let us know when you get settled.

Gnarls.



1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #565 on: Apr 29, 2019, 08:04:15 AM »
Welcome to the great state of Washington.
We will have to meet up at some point. I would love to scope your rigs and add you to my collection of Marlin Turtles I have been lucky enough to meet.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #566 on: Apr 29, 2019, 02:51:11 PM »
Thanks for the kind words guys! It was a little sad having both trucks picked up, there's always that thought in your mind that you'll never see them again.
But, I chose a shipping company a few miles from where I live in Vancouver (Sunrise Express in Portland) and they have great reviews so I'm not too concerned.

I'm definitely trying to get to know some more Toyota guys and gals in the PNW area, seems to be more than there was in Utah. Stoked to get started on my welding career up there! 

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #567 on: Apr 29, 2019, 04:53:38 PM »
Hey,

I saw that car transporter going to Mexico...………….





 :cheese:
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

Gnarly4X

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #568 on: Apr 29, 2019, 06:45:07 PM »
Hey,

I saw that car transporter going to Mexico...………….





 :cheese:


If I had $2 for every Toyota truck I witnessed going to Mexico in the last 13 years I could pay for a 14-day All-Inclusive Carnival cruise to Jamaica!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #569 on: Apr 29, 2019, 07:13:59 PM »
If I had $2 for every Toyota truck I witnessed going to Mexico in the last 13 years I could pay for a 14-day All-Inclusive Carnival cruise to Jamaica!!

Gnarls.

Move  ;)

 
 
 
 
 

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