Author Topic: Toybrota's 22R build  (Read 29255 times)

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Lewis Hein

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #30 on: Sep 23, 2017, 03:29:46 PM »
Depending on how much the head and block get machined, I'll get a Toyota head gasket. Because I've heard Superior things about them. Nothing in this build is gonna be from AutoZone.

I like the sound of that. If you want an AutoZone pickup, fix it with AutoZone parts. If you want a Toyota pickup...

That said, there are some (non AutoZone) aftermarket suppliers that I like. But I try to get OEM or better for really crucial stuff like fuel pumps, alternators, head gaskets, etc. I am anxious to see your engine when it's all done and shiny!




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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #31 on: Sep 24, 2017, 05:29:29 AM »
Yeah I'm planning to bolt the cover on and have them deck it with the timing cover on, that way it's perfectly flat! Well, hopefully.

Maybe this means they will clean the timing cover too, I am paying for them to clean everything so that's included in the price too.

I'm really excited to paint the block, I want it to look nice, plus with all the other shiny stuff. It'll be perfect. Depending on how much the head and block get machined, I'll get a Toyota head gasket. Because I've heard Superior things about them. Nothing in this build is gonna be from AutoZone.

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The head gasket discussion on forums is deep and wide – and always very controversial.

The Toyota factory gasket has been a popular choice.  The factory gasket has been designed for factory installed heads.  The Toyota factory head gaskets designed and manufactured in 1980’s may or may not be as good and as advanced technologically as the current ones from Fel-Pro or Cometic, for example.

In the rebuild scenario, there will be differences in the metal, flatness specs, Ra surfacing, and torque specs, and may be completely different from the Toyota factory installed heads.

From the Toyota engine builders I’ve had conversations with about head gaskets, most failures is NOT due to the head gasket, it’s the lack of proper machining of the head and block and improper installation.  It’s real easy to blame the head gasket, I mean who wants to admit they don’t know what they are doing and fubar’d their engine rebuild.

There are some factors that should be considered when selecting specific head gasket.  And since the 20/22s are notorious for head and head gasket failures, understanding the machining requirements, head gasket selection, and torque specs should be a high priority when rebuilding an engine.

The recommended Ra surface roughness spec is generally different for different gaskets types and different for alloy heads to cast iron blocks.  The use of coatings or sealer is also controversial, but “clean and dry” seems to be the recommended by the most head gasket manufacturers.     

Torque specs and thicknesses should also be considered based upon the finished machining and deck heights.

Toyota engine builders like 22RE Performance, LCE, or engbldr will provide their recommendation – and why.  To get other expert opinions, contacting the technical people at Fel-Pro or Cometic should give you other technical perspectives, insight, and recommendations.

On engine block paint.  I painted mine black, and wish I had painted it a light color.. light gray or light blue.  The lighter color will allow me to see any leaks and see the attached parts way better, and also keeping it cleaner when degreasing and washing the engine and engine bay.

Gnarls… just adding my pomp n’ stink.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #32 on: Sep 24, 2017, 10:01:26 AM »
The head gasket discussion on forums is deep and wide – and always very controversial.

The Toyota factory gasket has been a popular choice.  The factory gasket has been designed for factory installed heads.  The Toyota factory head gaskets designed and manufactured in 1980’s may or may not be as good and as advanced technologically as the current ones from Fel-Pro or Cometic, for example.

In the rebuild scenario, there will be differences in the metal, flatness specs, Ra surfacing, and torque specs, and may be completely different from the Toyota factory installed heads.

From the Toyota engine builders I’ve had conversations with about head gaskets, most failures is NOT due to the head gasket, it’s the lack of proper machining of the head and block and improper installation.  It’s real easy to blame the head gasket, I mean who wants to admit they don’t know what they are doing and fubar’d their engine rebuild.

There are some factors that should be considered when selecting specific head gasket.  And since the 20/22s are notorious for head and head gasket failures, understanding the machining requirements, head gasket selection, and torque specs should be a high priority when rebuilding an engine.

The recommended Ra surface roughness spec is generally different for different gaskets types and different for alloy heads to cast iron blocks.  The use of coatings or sealer is also controversial, but “clean and dry” seems to be the recommended by the most head gasket manufacturers.   

Torque specs and thicknesses should also be considered based upon the finished machining and deck heights.

Toyota engine builders like 22RE Performance, LCE, or engbldr will provide their recommendation – and why.  To get other expert opinions, contacting the technical people at Fel-Pro or Cometic should give you other technical perspectives, insight, and recommendations.

On engine block paint.  I painted mine black, and wish I had painted it a light color.. light gray or light blue.  The lighter color will allow me to see any leaks and see the attached parts way better, and also keeping it cleaner when degreasing and washing the engine and engine bay.

Gnarls… just adding my pomp n’ stink.
Thanks for the advice, the head gasket is one of the many debated things about engines, not just the 22R. I'll make my final decision on which head gasket I'll use when I get the machine work done, I'm 99% sure this motor hasn't been touched so that hopefully includes the head. If it has to be shaved a lot then I'll get a thicker head gasket.


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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #33 on: Sep 25, 2017, 07:15:13 PM »
:popcorn:
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #34 on: Sep 25, 2017, 08:19:22 PM »
It took me a while to read it all so I will offer my experience on the 22R. especially the early block.

1.  early 22R rods are bullet proof and have stood up to superchargers.  they will fit in a 350 chevy with minor  machine work and around here are banned in a dirt track car because when those stock chevy rods are coming apart those 22 rods are still there.    have them "done" by this I mean the ends over years and years will become slightly oval.  Your machine shop will remove the studs, machine off some of the rod material and then re bore them to the correct size making them perfectly round again.   I would also balance them as a set find the lightest of the four and make the other three the exact same weight.

2.  the cam you had posted from LC engineering was the perfect cam.  GET IT.    get the rest of your parts from machine shop.  Except the header, get it from LCE.

3.  ask the machine shop you use if they can order the parts (trust me they can) and usually at a significant cost savings to you.  all bearings and rings and pistons if they are needed and if its being bored you will.
ALSO   dont deck that block more than is needed to remove scratches.  no more.

4.   Engnbldr  is a great place to get parts for these engines.  DO NOT get the cam there.   they are much cheaper than LCE but you get what you pay for in this department (the cam department)

5.   the intake manifold will bolt right up.  I see no problems at all but gasket match just to be sure.

6.  Head gasket.  I will only put Multi Layer Steel or MLS,  usually D&J Rock brand, head gaskets on 22R's I build,   felpro never holds on the engines.


my 79 with full body armor weighs 4500 lbs ,  bored .060 over (I wouldnt advise that) Stage 2 race cam, .460 lift LCE,  header, 32/36 weber and a driver with a heavy foot :driving:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #35 on: Sep 25, 2017, 08:44:06 PM »
....l so I will offer my experience on the 22R. especially the early block.

....  bored .060 over (I wouldnt advise that) ....



Hey 79coyotefrg ,

First it's really nice to read your posts again!!

Just curious, why would you NOT recommend a 60 over bore on 22?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #36 on: Sep 26, 2017, 04:24:01 AM »

It took me a while to read it all so I will offer my experience on the 22R. especially the early block.

2.  the cam you had posted from LC engineering was the perfect cam.  GET IT.    get the rest of your parts from machine shop.  Except the header, get it from LCE.


Hey Glen,

Why do you like LCE's Pro Torquer camshaft for 22R, and what other camshafts have you compared it to?

Why do you like LCE's header, and what other headers have you compared it to?  What diameter exhaust do you prefer with a header?

Are the over sized valves worth the extra $$$?

With a 22R with the LCE Pro Torquer cam and LCE header, what carb and intake combo do recommend?

What compression numbers, ratio do you see in your 22s?  What octane fuel are you running?

Just curious.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #37 on: Sep 26, 2017, 12:50:16 PM »
We listen to Glen.  Because of fast...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck
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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #38 on: Sep 27, 2017, 12:12:24 AM »
I only went .060 over because I dropped a valve at 7000 rpm and thats how far the machine shop had to go to clean it up.  Without a V6 radiator it ran hot but the v6 radiator wouldnt fit in my first gen if I didnt already have a 2 inch body lift.   The radiator I have anyway goes from the bottom of my frame to about an inch above the stock radiator. I had to bend the core support lip up to clear it.
I can go to a .080 over piston BUT they are $100 EACH and LC is the only place I could find with that size.

Hey Glen,

Why do you like LCE's Pro Torquer camshaft for 22R, and what other camshafts have you compared it to?
That is a good cam with plenty of duration.  .440 intake and 450 exhaust I think,  Keep in mind these 22R's are basically a tractor engine.  They do NOT need help making torque at all but they need to breath.
My cam is the Stage 2 racing cam with .460 lift and 290* duration and in a hard pull up a long hill on the interstate  I have had people tell me I was shooting a three foot flame out my tail pipe just before shifting.  so standing on the go pedal at 4000 rpm (where I almost always shift) with a load I shoot a flame out like a dang race car :disturbed:

Quote
Why do you like LCE's header, and what other headers have you compared it to?  What diameter exhaust do you prefer with a header?
they are tough, open and the exact same inside diameter as the exhaust ports on the early 20R and 22R heads.  36mm, or 1 3/8 inch

Quote
Are the over sized valves worth the extra $$$?
  not really if you dont run a cam like mine but if getting one from Engnbldr as a new head with big valves, hell I would.   but for a rebuild just a good 3 angle valve grind and matching is all is needed

Quote
With a 22R with the LCE Pro Torquer cam and LCE header, what carb and intake combo do recommend?
   In an ideal world i'd run a 20R head and stock 20R intake with a weber 3236 BUT    if you have a 22R a good well tuned 22R carb is fine if you get a cam that will open its valves to allow a full charge.  the 3236 and the stock 22R carb have almost the same cfm,  325 for the 22R and 326 for the weber.

Quote
What compression numbers, ratio do you see in your 22s?  What octane fuel are you running?

Just curious.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
I run 87 octane PURE gas ie NO ethanol content at ALL.  if you cant find pure gas get 90 or higher.  many places have ethanol in the lower grade but will have NO ethanol in their top grade.  if you cant find it go to a Marina or bait shop if one is close by.    I get 11 miles per gallon if I have to buy 10% ethanol and get 17 on pure gas. (ok, got, its all in pieces in the shop at the moment)
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #39 on: Sep 27, 2017, 12:20:52 AM »
compression ,  9.7 with my current setup

I did heavy research into cams and carbs when I rebuilt my original 20R some 20 years ago.  I wanted a large boost in power from my stock 20R and when talking to Carl at LCEngineering and told him what I wanted to do with my truck he sent me specs on the 440 cam and my current cam and a 475, 300* duration cam and chose my 460 cam.   He suggested a 3236 carb and I already had a Downey header.   The guy at Downey said "you cant redesign a 30 year old motor by changing cams"  NWOR had shitty service so I chose LC and never looked back.  except to see the others shrinking in my rear view mirror.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #40 on: Sep 27, 2017, 01:09:57 AM »
We listen to Glen.  Because of fast...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck

remember thats with 35x12.50x15's that weigh 106 pounds each,  a total weight of 4500 pounds
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #41 on: Sep 27, 2017, 11:00:47 AM »
Glen for the win! :popcorn:
1996 Jeep ZJ Laredo Daily/Weekend Wheeler
5.2L V8, 44RE, NP249, 33X12.50R15s on MT Classics, 5.5in Iron Rock Off Road Critical Path F/R

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #42 on: Sep 28, 2017, 11:52:31 AM »
Thanks everyone for the responses, sorry I haven't been able to get back to each of you but please know that I definitely read every post!
My plans for the build are constantly changing, but hearing about the rods makes me happy, I'll just re-use them.

From what you said, the early 22R rods are stronger than the later 22R rods? Makes sense to me.

Still working a lot to save money for this build, I work 12 hour days and most days I have no energy to do anything truck related... At least I've got the money though!

The LCE cam is Definitely my want. Same with the header. I'll talk to the machine shop and see what they recommend parts wise.

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #43 on: Sep 28, 2017, 12:03:05 PM »
It took me a while to read it all so I will offer my experience on the 22R. especially the early block.

1.  early 22R rods are bullet proof and have stood up to superchargers.  they will fit in a 350 chevy with minor  machine work and around here are banned in a dirt track car because when those stock chevy rods are coming apart those 22 rods are still there.    have them "done" by this I mean the ends over years and years will become slightly oval.  Your machine shop will remove the studs, machine off some of the rod material and then re bore them to the correct size making them perfectly round again.   I would also balance them as a set find the lightest of the four and make the other three the exact same weight.

2.  the cam you had posted from LC engineering was the perfect cam.  GET IT.    get the rest of your parts from machine shop.  Except the header, get it from LCE.

3.  ask the machine shop you use if they can order the parts (trust me they can) and usually at a significant cost savings to you.  all bearings and rings and pistons if they are needed and if its being bored you will.
ALSO   dont deck that block more than is needed to remove scratches.  no more.

4.   Engnbldr  is a great place to get parts for these engines.  DO NOT get the cam there.   they are much cheaper than LCE but you get what you pay for in this department (the cam department)

5.   the intake manifold will bolt right up.  I see no problems at all but gasket match just to be sure.

6.  Head gasket.  I will only put Multi Layer Steel or MLS,  usually D&J Rock brand, head gaskets on 22R's I build,   felpro never holds on the engines.


my 79 with full body armor weighs 4500 lbs ,  bored .060 over (I wouldnt advise that) Stage 2 race cam, .460 lift LCE,  header, 32/36 weber and a driver with a heavy foot :driving:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck
Thanks for the tips, if I can get a discount from them compared to LCE, I'll order the parts through them.

My main concern is quality, this needs to be a reliable motor I can easily get 250K out of, easy for a 22R. I just want good Japanese parts in it, good Pistons and bearings. Before I have them order I'll make sure they are sourced good...

I definitely don't plan on being able to rev mine to 7000K, that would be nice though.

Hopefully the block doesn't need much, everything looked great tearing it apart.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #44 on: Sep 30, 2017, 03:07:48 AM »
...  The guy at Downey said "you cant redesign a 30 year old motor by changing cams" 


THAT is an idiotic statement.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #45 on: Oct 10, 2017, 01:58:18 PM »
Good news! Taking the block tomorrow to get its work done.

I was quoted $60 for the deck, and $90 for the bore. Looks like I will be in and out of there with just $200.

The place is called "Crankshaft grinders" Here in salt lake city. Really excited....

However, lifting the block up stairs out of my kitchen is not something I am looking forward to.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #46 on: Oct 11, 2017, 02:54:07 PM »
Block is at the shop now, should be picking it up in a week or two.

Then, I can start ordering parts.

The head will go next, a head job is only a couple hundred they said. They said $90 to cut the crank, and 30 to polish it. It looks good so maybe just a polish. We will have to see!!

Still not set on using engbldr, from what I understand he uses rockauto and to me that won't fly. I'll use LCE for most if not everything, minus the head gasket and other gaskets. Those I will get from my work.

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #47 on: Oct 11, 2017, 03:19:00 PM »
Block is at the shop now, should be picking it up in a week or two.

Then, I can start ordering parts.

The head will go next, a head job is only a couple hundred they said. They said $90 to cut the crank, and 30 to polish it. It looks good so maybe just a polish. We will have to see!!

Still not set on using engbldr, from what I understand he uses rockauto and to me that won't fly. I'll use LCE for most if not everything, minus the head gasket and other gaskets. Those I will get from my work.

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NOT rockauto.
1996 Jeep ZJ Laredo Daily/Weekend Wheeler
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Trailer Build http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=103261

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #49 on: Oct 11, 2017, 03:29:10 PM »
Good news! Taking the block tomorrow to get its work done.

I was quoted $60 for the deck, and $90 for the bore. Looks like I will be in and out of there with just $200.

The place is called "Crankshaft grinders" Here in salt lake city. Really excited....

However, lifting the block up stairs out of my kitchen is not something I am looking forward to.

Getting it upstairs will be easy, getting it back down assembled, not so much :)
“I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth.”
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"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #50 on: Oct 11, 2017, 03:33:20 PM »

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #51 on: Oct 11, 2017, 04:25:54 PM »
Must've read it wrong then, just what my research turned up.

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Rock auto and D&JRock are different.  I use D&J headgaskets because they are multi layer steel and you can blow a hg and it will reseal most of the time when it cools back down

AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #52 on: Oct 11, 2017, 04:37:46 PM »
Rock auto and D&JRock are different.  I use D&J headgaskets because they are multi layer steel and you can blow a hg and it will reseal most of the time when it cools back down
I read rock auto from a couple of different threads that I searched from. People say he's really good so I will most likely just go for him with the exception of the oil pump and water pump.

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79coyotefrg

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AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

79coyotefrg

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  • Solid axle Toys Rule ! ! !
    • HotSprings Superlift ORV park
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #55 on: Oct 11, 2017, 08:54:10 PM »
Like I said, bad on my part for believing the internet. I obviously have a lot of more researching to do.

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #56 on: Oct 16, 2017, 06:45:46 PM »
Picked up an OEM Toyota Gasket kit for my 22R at work today, it was $140 (Employee discount) for everything.
Some might question why this over a Fel-Pro, well, I figure that Toyota designed the motor, so they know best.

This kit includes everything from the head gasket to the rear main seal. Not bad.
Didn't even know Toyota Still makes these kits, maybe just new old stock.

79coyotefrg

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #57 on: Oct 16, 2017, 10:55:13 PM »
Picked up an OEM Toyota Gasket kit for my 22R at work today, it was $140 (Employee discount) for everything.
Some might question why this over a Fel-Pro, well, I figure that Toyota designed the motor, so they know best.

This kit includes everything from the head gasket to the rear main seal. Not bad.
Didn't even know Toyota Still makes these kits, maybe just new old stock.

take a picture of their headgasket for me.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #58 on: Oct 17, 2017, 10:45:27 AM »
Will do!

I am gonna use Engbldr for everything else, I trust what everyone says on here.

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's 22R build
« Reply #59 on: Oct 18, 2017, 10:31:01 AM »
Got my kit!

Includes everything. And as requested, a picture of the head gasket. Also, what is this weird white fiber gasket?

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