Author Topic: Rear output shaft flange on the T case  (Read 2624 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

1980firstgen20r

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 38
  • Member since Apr '17
  • 1st gen is better
    • Buy me a beer
Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« on: Jul 15, 2017, 10:38:14 AM »
 W56 trans:Ok if the nut on the rear output shaft flange on the transfer case was over tightend would that cause the bearing/ gears to make a rattling/ grinding noise???! My rear driveline line balanced from the shop,Full of gear oill,Brand new tranny/ transfer case, new clutch, everything seems all good but I think I did over tighten the flange nut and I hear this god awful grinding/ rattle noise coming from the T case.. :(
Roll with the Coaliton crawlers
Mountain Mafia

liveoak

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 115
  • Posts: 670
  • Member since Mar '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #1 on: Jul 16, 2017, 06:27:25 AM »
what are the specs of your truck? dual cases? lift? can you make a video of the noise? picture of truck? is your driveshaft out of phase? is your pinion angle correct based on type of driveshaft?  toyota gear driven trans/transfer case can get noisey/rattle if these things aren't correct.  there is no such thing as a brand new trans/transfer case for that truck as far as I know . did you have it rebuilt? by who?
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2017, 06:35:00 AM by liveoak »
my 3rz swap. http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=97722.0

Let me start off with a basket of chips

1980firstgen20r [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 38
  • Member since Apr '17
  • 1st gen is better
    • Buy me a beer
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #2 on: Jul 16, 2017, 06:08:13 PM »
what are the specs of your truck? dual cases? lift? can you make a video of the noise? picture of truck? is your driveshaft out of phase? is your pinion angle correct based on type of driveshaft?  toyota gear driven trans/transfer case can get noisey/rattle if these things aren't correct.  there is no such thing as a brand new trans/transfer case for that truck as far as I know . did you have it rebuilt? by who?
1980 20r swapped the l43 for the w56, had the rear drive shaft shortened and balanced at a shop, tranny was not rebuilt but out of a wrecked truck not in pick in pull or a wrecking yard
Maby a old school 3" pro comp lift but can't be sure for certain. I'm not sure if the angle on the pinion is correct tho. It's a fairly straight shot. The truck is a long bed/ single T case so I figured I wouldn't need a Cv for the rear drive shaft
Roll with the Coaliton crawlers
Mountain Mafia

1980firstgen20r [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 38
  • Member since Apr '17
  • 1st gen is better
    • Buy me a beer
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #3 on: Jul 16, 2017, 06:19:30 PM »
And I did re torque the flange nut on the T case to 90ft pounds like it's supposed to be and the noise does seem to be not as bad but still god awful and a video of it would do no justice going down the road because of the super swampper hum. Also they are also just 31-12&1/2 for now. It seems like in 3rd, and 5th gear it's make the noise the loudest. 4th is pretty quite but still noisy. And clutch peddle up in neutral while costing I still hear the noise.
Also upon acceleration from 0-2000 rpm it rattles hard, but inbetween 2000-3000 rpm it's completely quite can't hear the noise
Roll with the Coaliton crawlers
Mountain Mafia

1980firstgen20r [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 38
  • Member since Apr '17
  • 1st gen is better
    • Buy me a beer
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #4 on: Jul 16, 2017, 06:23:45 PM »
Could it be the rear output shaft bearing? And to be honest I didn't change the pilot bearing assuming it was still good cuz the pressure plate/clutch/fly wheel looked good
Roll with the Coaliton crawlers
Mountain Mafia

300k

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 3744
  • Male Posts: 646
  • Member since Jun '15
  • GREEN NAME MAN BAD!
    • Please ban me!
          OK!
      I am banned!
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #5 on: Jul 16, 2017, 07:12:11 PM »
your tranny should still be spinning with the clutch pushed in. maybe start on a hill with the case in neutral?

is it a 1p/c driveshaft or is there a carrier bearing in the center? I know with mine it could almost get the tires off the ground...dropped the driveshaft, had it balanced,  installed it with everything facing correctly, and now I have a minor hum around 40, which I think is tires.

maybe drive around in low range, if it starts at a low speed it's your tranny. if it starts at the same speed, it's your driveshaft.
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

liveoak

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 115
  • Posts: 670
  • Member since Mar '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #6 on: Jul 16, 2017, 07:33:41 PM »
every lifted toyota truck will benefit from a cv rear driveshaft. with your standard driveshaft, the pinion should not be pointed up to the transfer case. if it is,  it would definitely cause gear chatter and would be louder at different rpms and gears. I'm not saying it's the issue but it's a place to start. putting a cv shaft in my single cased 4runner made a big difference
my 3rz swap. http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=97722.0

Let me start off with a basket of chips

1980firstgen20r [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 38
  • Member since Apr '17
  • 1st gen is better
    • Buy me a beer
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #7 on: Jul 16, 2017, 10:17:35 PM »
every lifted toyota truck will benefit from a cv rear driveshaft. with your standard driveshaft, the pinion should not be pointed up to the transfer case. if it is,  it would definitely cause gear chatter and would be louder at different rpms and gears. I'm not saying it's the issue but it's a place to start. putting a cv shaft in my single cased 4runner made a big difference
Yes your right there are shims and the pinion is pointed up to the drive line, I'll talk to the guy at the shop, but the only reason I put the rear driveline in was to get an actual test drive in. I didn't trust the tranny I got. But anyways I plan on doing a 5" lift trail gear heavy duty leaf spring in the front with chevy 63" in the rear. I've already built my axles have everything hardware wize. Eliminating the old steering box/ arm system for crossover high steer and next gen box. Again anyways I would assume I should do the lift before I get the drive shaft made with the cv? And also what about the front drive shaft? Would it also need a cv?
Roll with the Coaliton crawlers
Mountain Mafia

liveoak

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 115
  • Posts: 670
  • Member since Mar '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #8 on: Jul 17, 2017, 06:19:34 AM »
most mini trucks already have a cv front shaft but yes,  both front and rear should be cv. you should remove the shims and test drive again possibly even reverse them to gain proper geometry. these links explain it well http://www.4xshaft.com/  and  http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Driveline-101.shtml and yes, you should complete your suspension mods before having your cv shafts made/modified.

 here's a drawing of how your current shaft angle should be. if you point the pinion up with the shaft shown in the first  drawing it will vibrate /rattle the transfer case. the more severe the angle, the worse it will be. once you have a rear cv shaft, you will want to point the pinion up to the transfer case as in the second drawing
« Last Edit: Jul 17, 2017, 07:48:45 AM by liveoak »
my 3rz swap. http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=97722.0

Let me start off with a basket of chips

1980firstgen20r [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 38
  • Member since Apr '17
  • 1st gen is better
    • Buy me a beer
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #9 on: Jul 17, 2017, 10:04:53 AM »
most mini trucks already have a cv front shaft but yes,  both front and rear should be cv. you should remove the shims and test drive again possibly even reverse them to gain proper geometry. these links explain it well http://www.4xshaft.com/  and  http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Driveline-101.shtml and yes, you should complete your suspension mods before having your cv shafts made/modified.

 here's a drawing of how your current shaft angle should be. if you point the pinion up with the shaft shown in the first  drawing it will vibrate /rattle the transfer case. the more severe the angle, the worse it will be. once you have a rear cv shaft, you will want to point the pinion up to the transfer case as in the second drawing
Thanks LiveOak I'll start with the shims I have a big feeling that this is my problem! And thank you everyone else for your help. I'll keep posting in this thread with the progress :)
Roll with the Coaliton crawlers
Mountain Mafia

1980firstgen20r [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 38
  • Member since Apr '17
  • 1st gen is better
    • Buy me a beer
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #10 on: Jul 17, 2017, 10:08:38 AM »
I do have one more question though where do I get a cv for the rear drive shaft?
Roll with the Coaliton crawlers
Mountain Mafia

liveoak

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 115
  • Posts: 670
  • Member since Mar '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #11 on: Jul 17, 2017, 12:40:56 PM »
I had a hybrid spicer cv with toyota shaft made at a driveline shop. someone with more knowledge may chime in on more options.
my 3rz swap. http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=97722.0

Let me start off with a basket of chips

Dingman.

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 781
  • Male Posts: 3,423
  • Member since Oct '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #12 on: Jul 17, 2017, 02:38:53 PM »
I haven't had a chance to really read all this, but if you want to add a cv and keep it Toyota parts, i would find a ifs shaft and have it clearanced and put on your existing shaft. You will have to make sure the cv will bolt to your tcase flange. I run tripple drilled flanges so i can use non cv, 4cyl cv or v6 cv, as they all have different patterns

1980firstgen20r [OP]

  • Offline Rock Crawl'n
  • **
  • Turtle Points: 0
  • Male Posts: 38
  • Member since Apr '17
  • 1st gen is better
    • Buy me a beer
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #13 on: Jul 17, 2017, 03:21:11 PM »
I haven't had a chance to really read all this, but if you want to add a cv and keep it Toyota parts, i would find a ifs shaft and have it clearanced and put on your existing shaft. You will have to make sure the cv will bolt to your tcase flange. I run tripple drilled flanges so i can use non cv, 4cyl cv or v6 cv, as they all have different patterns
That's correct and also on the older trucks/Runners the flanges are smaller bolt holes 12-13mm
Roll with the Coaliton crawlers
Mountain Mafia

cbeers

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2343
  • Posts: 180
  • Member since Jan '14
  • Crawling with Marlin
Hey Dingman,
I am in this spot right now, but seem to have different triple drilled flanges?  I bought two MC built diffs and then put MC triple drilled flanges on my Tcase.
Then I went to bolt up my CV driveshaft (for mockup) and realized that the bolt patterns don't align.

Did you make yours or buy a different one than MC or ?

I have 4cyl CVs

Thank you
CB

Dingman.

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 781
  • Male Posts: 3,423
  • Member since Oct '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #15 on: Apr 24, 2018, 09:29:27 AM »
The bolt patterns donít align at all? Have you verified every orientation?  Sometimes it can be difficult to line triple drilled flanges up because there are so many options.  What year cv shaft are you using? An early one might not bolt up, just depends on what your flange is supposed to be drilled for and what cv shaft you are actually using. :dunno:

I used to work at High Angle Driveline so I had access to everything I needed.  I took factory front flanges off newer cases and drilled them out in our mill for the patterns that I wanted.

cbeers

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2343
  • Posts: 180
  • Member since Jan '14
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #16 on: Apr 24, 2018, 11:58:52 AM »
I'll go try all possible patterns again, but I think no (Just tried again, no go.  Close one pattern but not right.)......I just saw this as well. F.

From Marlin's page for the triple drilled:

We have designed the flange to fit only the most common differential bolt patterns:

    1963-8/69 FJ40, 1979-83 Hilux, 64 x 56 x 8mm
    1984+ Pickup, 60 x 60 x 10mm (non-CV)
    1986-87 Turbo, 1988+ V6, FJ60, 66 x 66 x 11mm


Again, I should have noticed the bit on no CVs but I just assumed this was what people were using to get CVs on front and rear.  I have my stock front CV (1985) and another I picked up with an axle I bought (assume 84/85 based on the long truss front axle housing).  My plan was to have them rebuilt for my recently installed duals/MC built diffs.....now I am not sure what I need to do.

I'd hate to have to change out $160 worth of MC triple drilled flanges.  Right now I am guessing I'd either have to drill out the flanges on the CV driveshafts or possibly drill out the flanges from MC?  Seems like neither one should be necessary?  I don't see another triple drilled offering on MCs site so these must be the same flanges everyone is using.   :dunno:

In the meantime, I had a Gnarly moment this morning and thought I had installed the input shaft seal on the transmission backwards.  Couldn't stand the thought of it, sooooo out it all came again.  I did it right the first time, but at least now I know.  Lesson there was TAKE MORE PICS !

At least I was faster at it   ::)

CB

cbeers

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2343
  • Posts: 180
  • Member since Jan '14
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #17 on: Apr 24, 2018, 12:09:44 PM »
I just spoke to MC, confirmed that their triple drilled flanges do NOT cover 1984-1995 CV driveshafts.
I am shocked by that, but I guess everyone already knew that info and I was late to the party.

I ASSume I will need to have some custom flanges made for the driveshafts in order to make this all work....I already needed to get them resized but wasn't expecting this too.  Hopefully it's not much more $$, $$ is evaporating at a rapid rate lately!

CB

Dingman.

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 781
  • Male Posts: 3,423
  • Member since Oct '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #18 on: Apr 24, 2018, 12:21:22 PM »
see If you have enough room on the flanges to have the cv pattern drilled into them.  If not you could consider drilling out your stock flanges.  I think every shaft I have ran was non cv on the front and I had no problems.  That could solve one issue for you relatively cheaply.  :dunno:

If you still have your stock front output flange, you can bolt it on the back and run a cv rear with no additional cost.

cbeers

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2343
  • Posts: 180
  • Member since Jan '14
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #19 on: Apr 24, 2018, 12:51:07 PM »
I could drill the MC triple flanges, but that would leave me with an oblong hole....which I assume would not be good.
I could drill my stock flanges for the Tcase, but that wouldn't solve the issue with the MC built diffs I have since they also have the triple drilled flanges.  I suppose I could also drill out my stock diff flanges but I am going to call the DS shop and see what they can offer.  I hate the idea of scrapping all of these triple drilled flanges.  Scrapping meaning trying to sell them off to recover some of the $.

I DID think about going non CV front and rear since I am going to run a HP front diff, but I have heard many solid members state that CV would likely be needed, especially in the rear, so I am trying to just do it right the first time......

Clearly I am not winning at that though!

Thanks for chiming in Mike, I really appreciate it given your history with HAD.  I just figured things would be easier/more clear given how many people have done this before me.

CB

Dingman.

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 781
  • Male Posts: 3,423
  • Member since Oct '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #20 on: Apr 24, 2018, 01:16:59 PM »
You should not have to do anything with the differential flanges, you should already have the 10mm non cv style flanges on your shafts at the slip end.  So both diff flanges should work as is.  If you are going to run high pinion with dual cases you should not need a cv in the front at all. I never ran one with that setup and Experienced zero vibrations, you might have different results but if your truck isnít lifted 15Ē you should be fine. :rofl: 

keep in mind, some instances a stock/clearanced cv will need a limit strap so it doesnít over travel the cv on suspension droop.  the non cv shafts get more angle (84í+) the early stuff gets less angle, either way should not be an issue with duals and a high pinion. That is more for single cases/low pinion trucks that are lifted.  I only bring this up because a lot of people think they need a cv front and that generally isnít the case.

I would seriously consider running a long slip front shaft with no cv. And running a clearanced cv rear shaft. Either drill the pattern into your t-case flange you have, or put the original front case flange on the back so you can bolt that cv up to it.  :beer:

cbeers

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2343
  • Posts: 180
  • Member since Jan '14
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #21 on: Apr 24, 2018, 02:39:09 PM »
OK, mystery solved and another episode of learning the hard way.  I am also going to put on a small rant against MC so please understand that I love these guys and have spent many many thousands of dollars with them over the last several years.  It's scary when I review my order history  :yikes:

And that won't stop.....but, I will say that MC's website and staff could be more helpful to people like me who don't already know every nuance.  I go to MC for gospel, not to find out that things are not right at the time of install so here goes.

A while back I called up MC and asked about Tcase flanges as I didn't see any on the site, only diff flanges.  MC says, "they are the same thing" so just order the diff flanges.  OK, I didn't know that so I proceed to put two on my order.  Installed them on the tcase along with new f/r output seals, gaskets and stake nuts while I was there.  Trying to do a complete job.  Then I tried to line up my stock CV front driveshaft to the Tcase rear output flange and noticed that the pattern didn't align, as stated in earlier posts above.

I called up MC and asked if I had the wrong flanges or ??  Nope, that's all they sell BUT they are not made for CV shafts for 1984-1995.  What the....that's a LOT of our trucks??  I  hung up not thrilled at the incorrect guidance and failed purchase but no time for crying. 

I then call Larry at Yodaman.  I explain my situation and he says "never seen that, something's not right, bring it in let me see."  Sweet.  I drive up with two CV shafts and my stock non-CV rear shaft, along with the rear diff that MC built me since it's still not installed.  Larry pulls out "Brand B" flange and it aligns with my CV shaft PERFECTLY.  OK, now I am really lost?  We check the diff side and that's a slam dunk, I didn't even realize that they were different.  Again, learning as I go through things here.

Hmmm, I then ask for his brand B flange and place it directly on top of the MC diff flange, there were NOT the same.  Bingo!
Larry then asks for the box the MC flanges came in and notices that they are indeed diff flanges, but NOT Tcase flanges.  Great there goes $80 for flanges I didn't need.  Hopefully I can sell them to somebody at some point.

Sooo, I will now have another brand B part on my truck which is not the end of the world, but not my first choice either.

I called back MC and suggested that they put this info on their site but I am not sure it was well received   :dunno:

Hopefully this will help someone else from making the same mistake I did.

Luckily, this time it only cost me $80 vs the $350+ issue I just got done with.  That issue will pop up in my build thread when I am caught up to the current day.....

CB







cbeers

  • Offline Rock Master
  • ***
  • Turtle Points: 2343
  • Posts: 180
  • Member since Jan '14
  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #22 on: Apr 24, 2018, 02:41:13 PM »
and Ding, I do think I'll go that route in the end - no CV up front and clearanced CV in the rear.

Thanks again for your help

CB

Dingman.

  • Offline Silver Turtle Award
  • *
  • Turtle Points: 781
  • Male Posts: 3,423
  • Member since Oct '08
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #23 on: Apr 24, 2018, 02:59:28 PM »
and Ding, I do think I'll go that route in the end - no CV up front and clearanced CV in the rear.

Thanks again for your help

CB


It makes sense that the flanges sold for the diffs do not have a cv pattern in them as I donít think anyone should run the cv at the diff.  So sure in a pinch a diff flange will work at the tcase apparently, but only for the non cv patterns. You are right though, you should have been informed of that before you bought the flanges since you said you needed tcase flanges.  Mistakes happen, you might be able to find a buyer if you post them on here for sale if marlin will not let you return them.

I seem to remember marlin selling flanges with like 5 patterns in them at one point? Maybe those are what the salesperson thought they had in stock as those might have had the cv pattern in them?  :dunno:

If you have any more questions, donít hesitate to ask!  :thumbsup:




gnob

  • Offline Crawler Guru
  • ****
  • Turtle Points: 395
  • Posts: 637
  • Member since May '02
Re: Rear output shaft flange on the T case
« Reply #24 on: Apr 25, 2018, 08:54:31 AM »
Marlin definitely offered tcase flanges drilled for CV because I have them on mine.  I use 86+ CV front and rear.
When the flanges arrived the holes matched but weren't perfect. I clatenced them a bit, now they're golden.

hold this. . .

 
 
 
 
 

Related Topics

0 Replies
719 Views
Last post Feb 15, 2004, 09:47:23 AM
by krawlr
2 Replies
1302 Views
Last post Sep 06, 2012, 06:42:53 PM
by tgmaul88
1 Replies
1189 Views
Last post Jun 19, 2006, 09:52:49 PM
by Duffil
8 Replies
1613 Views
Last post Jun 27, 2007, 07:38:52 AM
by sinbob
2 Replies
932 Views
Last post Feb 03, 2010, 07:46:24 PM
by YotaChris