2 months in, still not running right, this is what you should do, not buying another cam.

The stock cam will remove any "cam cause" from your running issues, and allow you to focus on other possible causes if your running issues remain.  You will also have a "stock" cam w/rebuild/other mods seat of the pants experience to compare with the other cams.

Yeah.... that's the direction I'm leaning heavily in right now. 

I don't what the 261C to be the problem, but I should have gone with my gut feeling..... CompCam 252S.

Gnarls.

Gnarls,

Just to recap where you are at with this, you are happy with off-idle performance, is that correct? The main problems are bad cold starts, a high idle that does not work, and then idling too high after it is warmed up?

Did you ever block off the EGR? If that leaks slightly you'll have all sorts of idle problems. Adjust TPS? Get timing back to stock? Get number 1 and 8 valves adjusted correctly?

Another couple hundred miles on mine and I am very happy. I seem to be getting more power. The 261 may not have the idle power band for you but it seems unlikely that it is the cause of your problems.

I do agree with a post a while back that the 261 likes a little higher idle. I have mine set around 900. At 750 it is a bit rough and does a little of the random blub-blub thing, like it wants to miss but not quite that bad.

Gnarls,

Just to recap where you are at with this, you are happy with off-idle performance, is that correct? The main problems are bad cold starts, a high idle that does not work, and then idling too high after it is warmed up?

Did you ever block off the EGR? If that leaks slightly you'll have all sorts of idle problems. Adjust TPS? Get timing back to stock? Get number 1 and 8 valves adjusted correctly?

Another couple hundred miles on mine and I am very happy. I seem to be getting more power. The 261 may not have the idle power band for you but it seems unlikely that it is the cause of your problems.

I do agree with a post a while back that the 261 likes a little higher idle. I have mine set around 900. At 750 it is a bit rough and does a little of the random blub-blub thing, like it wants to miss but not quite that bad.

Yeah... I have had more than expected issues.

Flat-spotted tires
Fuel pump failure
Front input shaft seal on tranny was leaking, but may have stopped leaking right now.
Injector pigtail connector on #1 injector had to be replaced.
Had to buy fuel pressure gauge to test the fuel pressure regulator.
Won't cold start like it should
Noise in rocker cover.. that has me concerned!
Could be running a lean AF mixture, I don't know if its the cam and it's overlap.
The idle RPM would change after driving it, went up by 150 to 200 RPMs.
The low RPM blubber at slack throttle is abnormal, but I can live with that.. again it may be the overlap in cam.

I still need to test the EGR, readjust the valve lash before I swap the cam, and readjust the TPS, pull the plugs again to check color, and get some more miles on it before doing another compression check.

It's now got a loud squeal when I cold start it!!!!!!  I think its a v-belt (the belts are tight, but I will recheck), and sounds like a pulley, alternator, or A/C pump pulley is not spinning at start up??? It goes away after about 2 or 3 seconds after it fires.

Yes, it does seem to have nice lower RPM pull.

I can live with a 900 RPM idle.

My time and attention to my truck has been pushed back a little due to a some health issues in my 69 year old body!!

Sucks to get old!!

Gnarls.

Arnt you running engnbldr's rv head? when I was considering going that route Tod told me that I couldnt run a stock cam with the RV head ( I wanted to know if going back to stock was an option if I didnt like the aftermarket cam). I dont know why it wouldnt work but if your planning to give it a try you might ask him about it first.

The symptoms andykrow just mentioned, if thats what your experiencing it sounds like classic IAC valve symptoms. I think you have already been through that but thats what it sound like to me.

Good luck, and keep after it 

Yes, engbldr's RV head, with OS valves with 261C cam.

OK, I'll check with Tod on this cam.  bestgen said he thinks my idle/start up issues is the Air Valve.

Gnarls.

Hey Mudder,

Can I assume that you have checked out other possible causes for your engine to "fall flat on its face" at around 4500 and 5000 RPMs?  Or.. are you convinced its the 261C cam?

Have you talked to Tod or Ted at engbldr?

How many miles on your rebuild?

Are you planning to change the cam?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Gnarls, my last 22re came from my old truck, an 89 22re with an auto tranny so it was in amazing shape. I won't be swapping cams as I'm moving away from the 22re for now. My 84 is getting a 3rz swap (thank you H8!) with a turbo or supercharger and my regular I'll go back into my 89.

It's now got a loud squeal when I cold start it!!!!!!  I think its a v-belt (the belts are tight, but I will recheck), and sounds like a pulley, alternator, or A/C pump pulley is not spinning at start up??? It goes away after about 2 or 3 seconds after it fires.

This "loud squeal" that dies out after 2-3 seconds isn't so abnormal in my experience. When I was driving a '93 22RE with 100k on it, it would squeal on start-up if the temp was below 25F or so.

Not saying it's not something to fix, just that it may not be a fixing emergency.

Gnarly,


So what's the thread size on that banjo bolt for the fuel pressure tester?


 

Hey emsvitil...

I need to confirm what I think it is at Ace Hardware.  I'm about 97% sure it's 8mm x 1.0mm.... but I don't want to give you the wrong thread size.

The other threads are standard 1/8 NPT.

I'll stop by Ace this afternoon after work and verify it.

Sorry for the delay.

Gnarls

Since the 261C and RV head is a big part of this thread I'll keep updating here.

Anyway I decided it was time to do some high speed pass climbing this weekend, so we put 500 miles on it on the way to a wedding in BV. I am very happy with the performance so far. This build compares favorably to other 22re's I have had especially considering the tire size and rig height. I was able to pull the 3rd gear hills easily at 4-4.5k rpms. These are the type of hills that a weak 22re will require 2nd gear with. A couple of times i missed the power band and was at 2800 or so, and was still able to accelerate, albeit slowly. And then at the higher rpms I was happy to see that I really did not need to be on the gas pedal hard at all.

The next hill test will be east bound i70, vail pass and eisenhower tunnel. If I can get those at 3rd gear I will be very impressed. Even stronger 22re's typically need 2nd gear on them. I probably won't be on those until fall, so that test will be a ways out.

Other notes - idle was noticeably lower at 8.5k feet. About 750 rpm instead of 900. Around 850 - 900 is where I like to sit with this cam, it gets a little rough under that. Back in Foco the idle was right back where I have it set.

I do still finding myself think a little more off idle torque would be nice. Maybe I will try the 252 in there in a couple of years. But I also need to drive another 22re truck every once in a while to reacquaint myself with how they take off from a standstill.

Finally, best part, with 500 miles of hilly highway, keeping her around 65-70 mph, I pulled 23 mpgs over the whole trip! Strangely, I have always found that out here in CO my 22re's get better mileage with hilly highway driving compared to flat land.

Hey andykrow,

Great information.. thank you for the feedback.

I’m happy to read that your rebuilt is performing well.  I would guess that some people would say that at 500 miles on a rebuilt 22RE is still a little tight. I find it very interesting to read the differences in outcomes from the engine rebuilds. I’ve been compiling information for years trying to come up with some kind of trend or common results, but I’m not sure I have any conclusive facts.

The lower RPM at 8500 feet is a little puzzling, but I assume it’s the richer mixture.  Getting 23 MPG at that elevation AND hill climbing is awesome!  My 1st 1986, I bought in 1986, one time got 28 MPG, but I was really trying to see how good I could get on a tankful… on the flat, no wind, cool weather, no AC on, 60 to 65 MPH, light on the gas pedal.

What octane, formula, and whose brand of fuel are you burning?

Off idle torque… well that is what the 261C is supposed to do.

Sorry about the lack of updates here.  In my last 2 years of physical exams the Drs say I’m in excellent health for my age, so when I suffered a ruptured disc between L4 and L5 about 5 weeks ago, causing Sciatica from my right butt cheek down to my toes, it has put the brakes on me crawling all over my truck.  Treatment is ongoing, so I hope to be able to continue with solving the issues I have with my rebuild.  Of course right now my garage is 100 degrees.  Doing my obligatory early morning outside chores 3 times a week kicks my old arse!
 
Back to tech….I am curious about your compression at 500 miles and what the spark plugs look like. Also, when you adjusted your valve lash, did do it as described in the FSM or with rocker sitting on bottom of the base circle?

Congratulations on a job well done!

Gnarls.

Ah what I meant by 500 miles was the that was how long the trip was, and that was the distance I measured the mileage over. I am about to hit 2000 total miles on the rebuild. No change in valve noise, still quiet. Still chasing a slight exhaust leak (or it's the DT just being noisy?) but I'm about to permanently solve it by turning up the radio.

As for gas, I just use the cheapest, lowest octane I can find. Typically King Soopers ("City Market" where you are?) because of the fuel points. Up at this altitude we get 85 octane so that is what I use. I'll put 87 in at lower altitudes of course.

I have not had a chance to do a compression test and I don't really have any plans to buy a tester, so it will probably be a while before I get a chance to do that. I can say that with about 1700 miles on my current oil, the level has not moved in the slightest on the dipstick. So my rings seem to be seated. Definitely no oil leaks. (first time ever, haha) Great power so my guess is compression is fine.

I have not adjusted valves yet, but I do plan on doing that in the next couple of weeks. I will stick to engnbldr's 007/009 spec, and I will definitely use the base circle technique.

Now.. the off-idle torque... I think I really need to sit down in another truck and compare. In general these 22re's are weak and I will find myself annoyed at them from time to time. So apparently depending on my mood this will feel like it's making great power or it will feel weak as $hit. This truck does require very little gas to get moving so that is a good sign. I do really feel it come on after 2500, and that is really nice for the highway driving as I've said several times. If I traded the highway power for more off-idle power that would NOT be acceptable - the only time the off-idle bothers me is driving around town. So if there is a compromise to be had I am happy where I am at.

I do think the low idle is a rich mixture issue. At first I thought it was happening after driving highway for 4 hours in 90 degree weather, that has happened in a couple other 22re trucks. Drive it all day and it idles low. BUT, in this case, the next morning, as soon as the high warm-up idle went away the idle was low again. Then as soon as I got back into low altitude the idle was normal.

I am definitely surprised and pleased by that mileage. I was not trying to baby it and there were head winds for a lot of the drive so I think I can get better. The best I could get out of the old engine was 19 mpg. The best I ever saw was from my first Toyota - a 1980 4x4, with a hybrid 20/22, weber 32/36, DT open exhaust. 31's, 4 speed and 4.10s, got 28 mpg on a 3000 mile road trip that included a fair amount of wheeling. I wish I could say I tuned it (then I would have some info for H8PVMNT) but alas I bought it from someone who was apparently a master of that setup.

Yeah I am having trouble differentiating if that ting sound is from the head or a slight leak. I did swap over to the remflex (again) and the gasket I had in there showed a leak right by one of the egr inlets, on the header flange side. So it is possible that there is a little manufacturing flaw on the flange. Maybe someday I will get that trued up. But I only really hear the sound in first and second gear and it is easily drowned out by the radio. After that the mud tires take over  Those combined with no carpet inside (just bedliner) and a there ends up being lot of noise coming into my cab. I need a better radio!

There does seem to be slightly less noise with the remflex although I could be imagining things. And I do feel like I have heard that sound out of other headers DT included so hopefully that is all.

I was honestly shocked at the mileage I got, especially considering 35's. No doubt part of it is sticking to 65-70 mph. This truck kind of forces me to stay there though. It will drive even smoother at higher speeds than that, but I don't trust it's ability to do an evasive maneuver when I'm doing 80+. And the lady starts to get nervous, haha.

Sounds like you should get behind the wheel of another truck with a 22re if you can! That always grounds me. Other non-22re vehicles tend to have more pep than my truck, and often I'll get back into my truck and just be like "ugh this is slow" haha.

I will certainly snap some picks of my rockers once I open her up. I may be able to get to that next week although I have a busy few weeks coming up here.

My performance does seem to be better than most of the 22re's I have had in the past. I have a couple benchmark hills around here and it seems to do the best so far. I can maintain fifth on the entire Foco to Denver interstate run which has some decent hills that previously required 4th.

Of course it is difficult to compare to previous trucks since I have never had a new rebuild with this exact setup. My last 4runner 22re had about 30k miles since rebuild, with 252, DT and open exhaust but no oversized valves. This truck does marginally better than that one, although that truck was on 33s and 4.10. The 4runner before that one was on 33s and 4.88, unknown miles on motor but good compression, TG header and open exhaust. This truck destroys that one on the climbs

I didn't install the 252, the truck had it when I bought it. Judging by your spreadsheet though I would have seriously considered it in my build. I went with the 261 mainly for price, but with all the money this ended up costing an extra 100 would not phase me at all, haha.

Having been on the interstate a few times in the last couple days though I must say I am pleased with the 261 at those speeds. No regrets there. I can get up to 4K rpm in fifth no problem and that's nearly 90 mph with my gearing.

Off road I have the duals so I don't really care about low end torque, there is plenty.

A little more pep around town would be cool, but hardly worth tearing into the head. This truck is mainly for recreation, which is highway miles and off roading. I have a car that gets great mileage for everything else.

I am looking forward to your impressions when your motor is sorted out!

I have to wonder how some people can be completely happy with this cam (me) while others think it is actually causing the motor to run incorrectly. Either there are some serious quality control issues or the motor has other problems that the cam is getting the blame for.

For what it's worth I do think engnbldr gets a bad rap just because it is on the cheaper end of things. For myself I have bought a few timing kits and various other timing parts and front-end kit stuff (water pump, oil pump, etc) and always been completely happy. Never had a failure. Now, I do stay away from their gaskets and seals. I don't think they are necessarily bad, but I go Toyota with that stuff. My local dealer has pretty great prices and that is worth it for a few extra bucks.

22re Performance? Hard for me to think they are worth the money, at least for the full rebuilds. Maybe their head with cam for $950 is worth it. Idk. I have close to the equivalent of their Stage 2 motor for just over half the price. There is no way that motor is twice the motor mine is. I had mine built with quality parts from the best machine shop in Northern Colorado by a guy who knows his way around the 22re. His bill for that was $1k. 

My rebuild got expensive because i replaced a TON of things that got pulled as part of the R&R. If I was looking at 3k for JUST the motor, I would have put some sort of TBI 4.3 chevy in there instead, haha. To each his own though.

Sure you can go down the rabbit hole and put super high end everything in to a 22re but WHY? In the end it is still a noisy tractor motor.  /rant

My fuel pump damper (on front of fuel rail) is leaking and I found this in researching it........

https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/012004_08.pdf


The third paragraph on page 2 (article is pages 8-9, so it's also page 9) sounds vaguely familiar  (if this is the correct thread)

In 89,   Toyota got rid of the damper on 22REs.

It seems it's possible to replace the damper with a banjo bolt.    Search '22RE damper delete'


I figured that mine lasted 31 years, so I just ordered one online from pepboys, will pickup this evening.      There's currently a 20% discount coupon if you order online and pickup at store (probably 20% if you order online and have it shipped too).   


BTW,   just had to remove the intake tube to get to the damper with a wrench and push the wire for #1 injector out of the way.    The strange thing was that the injector rotated when I move the wire.     I would think the injector would be stuck in place after 31 years and 174k miles........