Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 178626 times)

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:)bestgen4runner

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #780 on: Apr 17, 2017, 07:09:58 PM »
Remember the valve you removed and decided not to mess with. The one we both searched for a write up on.
That is the cause of your not having a fast idle at start up.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #781 on: Apr 20, 2017, 11:35:30 AM »
UPDATE THURSDAY, APRIL 20:

I'm still frustrated with the engine.  It won't start like it should, and idle. The after it warms up it idles about 1100 RPM.  I still have to do some tests, but I'm REALLY beginning to NOT like this RE!! :maddest:

I get to go though the "Oh-boy-let's-see-if-Gnarls-can-figure-out-what-MamaECU-and-her-ugly-sisters-are-PMSing-about!" crap.

Well.... my flat spotted tires are gone…. and so is a big chunk out of checking account!!  :yikes:

Discount Tire just put a set of these on…
« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2017, 11:46:28 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #782 on: Apr 20, 2017, 11:56:05 AM »
You should do a BFG KO2 (not running a spool) review. :)
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Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #783 on: Apr 20, 2017, 12:08:48 PM »
You should do a BFG KO2 (not running a spool) review. :)

Sure... I can report mileage, tread depth, wear pattern, PSI, mileage rotate, off-highway, wet/dry traction, ride comfort, noise.... what else??

Gnarls. 
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #784 on: Apr 20, 2017, 01:23:18 PM »
Just all that and a superfluous amount of pictures indicating how much fun you have while wearing them out. I think you will love these where you live. They should be perfect.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #785 on: Apr 20, 2017, 07:46:58 PM »
My engine idles at 1000 rpm.  Doesn't matter if I adjust it down.  Within a week or so, its back up to 1000.  But if I have been driving it for a long time, it will idle down to 800.  I need to replace the oring on the idle adjuster. 


One thing my truck has always been good at, is starting.  Starts right up.  Unless its been sitting for a couple days.  Then it takes a couple seconds longer.  But within 2 seconds its running.  Hot or cold. 


Before long Gnarls gonna be a master at the 22RE.   :biggthumpup:
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #786 on: Apr 21, 2017, 03:49:21 AM »

Before long Gnarls gonna be a master at the 22RE.   :biggthumpup:

Cheesemaker... thank you for the vote of confidence.  I need that right now.  I'm frustrated.  I've been studying to figure out how to get this engine running like old 1986.  I mean... it's just metal and rubber with some gas and air pumped in it, right... add a little spark and bingo!  :gap:

I pulled #1 plug last night and it still looks like the mixture is running lean to me. Its got over 200 miles on it.  I tach'd it up to 5,500 a couple times in 1st gear yesterday.  It seems like it pulls hard from 2 to 3K, then at around 4K it's has a little flat spot, then at about 4,800 it comes on again and jumps to 5,500.  :yikes:

It has some noise, constant from idle up, at the front camshaft area that I don't like. I think its rocker or valve noise. :dunno:  I've checked and adjusted the valve lash 3 times.  :-\

So the cold start fast idle issue can be several things. As :)bestgen4runner suggests, it's the air valve? ... or as mudder discovered - the start injector time switch, or it could be the cold start injector?  BUT, it can also be the fuel pressure regulator.  Since the injectors are rebuilt and the O2 sensor is new, it's running a lean mixture, I'm thinking the pressure regulator is probably the original and could be plugged up, not allowing enough fuel to the injectors?  :dunno:

I'll either figure this out, break my Toy piggy bank trying, have a break-down and end up in a straight-jacket on Prozac and a Valium drip!.... or I could become a 22RE "tweaker-tuner" like H8PVMNT!  :willynilly:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
« Last Edit: Apr 21, 2017, 04:40:10 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #787 on: Apr 21, 2017, 07:26:14 AM »
Blabbity blabbity blah!  Yurhg!  Sheesh. ;). Taweeekur.

I think the pressure regulator is on the end of the fuel rail so it works like a pop off letting fuel out through the return, not like a restrictor on the way in.  I have heard the 261C tends to make a lot of racket, compounded with the later aluminum rockers, which I hate by the way, but I'm weird... Seriously though aside from snugging up valve lash if you get a set of early steel rockers and polish them on a wet stone for break in they will quiet down the valve train. Probably not worth the trouble unless it really drives you nuts.

You pretty much need to replace all that stuff and see what happens.  You know what?  I have an '85 22re sitting in the back of my kids pickup.  We are going to use carb on it, cough, carb, cough.  Do you want me to send you some bits from it to help with diagnosis?
« Last Edit: Apr 21, 2017, 07:59:06 AM by H8PVMNT »
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #788 on: Apr 21, 2017, 08:15:49 AM »
I wouldn't run your idle below 1k with the 261. It cause the engine to just not seem right.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #789 on: Apr 21, 2017, 02:05:41 PM »
Blabbity blabbity blah!  Yurhg!  Sheesh. ;). Taweeekur.

I just liked this...  :yupyup:

Quote
I think the pressure regulator is on the end of the fuel rail so it works like a pop off letting fuel out through the return, not like a restrictor on the way in. 

correct

Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #790 on: Apr 21, 2017, 05:26:57 PM »
Quote
H8PVMNT .... I think the pressure regulator is on the end of the fuel rail so it works like a pop off letting fuel out through the return, not like a restrictor on the way in.



correct



hhhmmmmmm... from my research you are both wrong.  You may be thinking of the pulse damper... at the other end of the fuel rail.  The pressure regular DOES regulate the pressure to the injectors and can be become faulty and will restrict the correct fuel pressure to the injectors. It will "return" fuel to the tank as it functions to regulate.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #791 on: Apr 21, 2017, 05:38:20 PM »

... I have heard the 261C tends to make a lot of racket, compounded with the later aluminum rockers, which I hate by the way, but I'm weird... Seriously though aside from snugging up valve lash if you get a set of early steel rockers and polish them on a wet stone for break in they will quiet down the valve train. Probably not worth the trouble unless it really drives you nuts.

You pretty much need to replace all that stuff and see what happens.  You know what?  I have an '85 22re sitting in the back of my kids pickup.  We are going to use carb on it, cough, carb, cough.  Do you want me to send you some bits from it to help with diagnosis?

I have not heard or read that the 261C makes a lot of noise.  I'm VERY familiar with 22's rocker noise.

Thank you very much for your generous offer.  Can I take rain check for now?

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 21, 2017, 06:20:22 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #792 on: Apr 21, 2017, 06:13:17 PM »
I wouldn't run your idle below 1k with the 261. It cause the engine to just not seem right.

I am seriously considering pulling the 261C camshaft out of this head.  At this point I believe I have “read” more negative reviews about this camshaft than any rave reviews.  As I mentioned before, I had very credible communications with a guy “testing” camshafts in his 22RE.  He said the 261C produced a “lean fire” condition and a rough idle issue.  He thought it would be perform better in a 22R.

Add that to what appears to be a lean mixture based upon my color-reading the spark plugs, the 6 degrees of overlap in this profile, and a low RPM blubber I hear in 1st gear at slack throttle, the noise I hear that I don’t like in the rocker cover, and what appears to be poorly aligned lobes relative to the rockers, probably due to poor quality control in casting.

In the past, my DD testing data made the CompCam 252S profile look very good for a stock 22RE with a header and opened exhaust.  The guy that had tested several camshafts, actually tested the CompCam 252S based on my posts on Pirate.  Two guys that installed the 252S and provided me with some very good feedback thought it performed very well and still offered nice fuel mileage.  Since that time, I see there are some very interesting choices in cam profiles for the 22s.

As a test comparison, I am tempted to replace this camshaft with the stock one that is sitting in my old head.

IF the factory stock camshaft proves to be plenty torquey for my target of 2500 to 3500 RPM range and keeps MamaECU happy, I will look at several other camshafts, and then decide what I may install or test later on.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 21, 2017, 06:25:25 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #793 on: Apr 21, 2017, 06:52:19 PM »
As I stated before, it took me 10 days before I had enough and pulled mine.
Sounds like you will be close to the same result, Rofl
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #794 on: Apr 21, 2017, 07:55:23 PM »

hhhmmmmmm... from my research you are both wrong.  You may be thinking of the pulse damper... at the other end of the fuel rail.  The pressure regular DOES regulate the pressure to the injectors and can be become faulty and will restrict the correct fuel pressure to the injectors. It will "return" fuel to the tank as it functions to regulate.

Gnarls.


This is at the end of the fuel rail



It regulates by acting like a popoff valve, there is no restriction to incoming fuel.    Any restriction would tend to raise fuel pressure.

The popped off fuel returns to the fuel tank.
Ed
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86 SR5 XtraCab
22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #795 on: Apr 21, 2017, 07:58:01 PM »

As a test comparison, I am tempted to replace this camshaft with the stock one that is sitting in my old head.


If you're careful, you should be able to swap the cam and rocker arm assembly (so the rockers are matched to the cam) without replacing the headgasket.....

Ed
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Snowtoy

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #796 on: Apr 21, 2017, 11:38:25 PM »
If you are running lean, you can richen the the A/F ratio by adjusting the AFM.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #797 on: Apr 22, 2017, 02:22:38 AM »

It regulates by acting like a popoff valve, there is no restriction to incoming fuel.    Any restriction would tend to raise fuel pressure.

The popped off fuel returns to the fuel tank.


Yes, I thought the same thing and did not immediately consider that part as causing a possible lean mixture condition.  After doing more research, I read the attached page from the Toyota EFI and Engine Controls Systems book that I bought on :)bestgen4runner's suggestion.

Since the gas sat for almost 4 years, and did have some crusty looking stuff on the fuel pump I replaced, so is it possible that a 31 year old fuel pressure regulator could be restricting the fuel flow?

I'm trying to look at every possible cause or effect, known or unknown, and it seems the more I look for answers the more questions I get.

There is, no doubt, an incredible amount of experience and knowledge here, so would you go with the anecdotal and possibly correct experiences of us DIYers, or would you consider the training manual for Toyota mechanics?

I always do my best to keep an open mind, especially about things I'm on that are a continuing learning curve.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 22, 2017, 03:13:26 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #798 on: Apr 22, 2017, 02:37:38 AM »
If you are running lean, you can richen the the A/F ratio by adjusting the AFM.

Hey Snowtoy,

Yes, I considered that, and have not yet tested the AFM.  However, before I toasted the engine, the AFM was performing fine.  Nothing should have changed with it, although anything is possible.  Unfortunately, I did not keep the old spark plugs... dumb move... I could have had them to compare with... now I will take photos and document in my library of Tweaker-Tuner data!

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #799 on: Apr 22, 2017, 02:43:40 AM »
If you're careful, you should be able to swap the cam and rocker arm assembly (so the rockers are matched to the cam) without replacing the headgasket.....


Hey emsvitil,
 
Yeah... I've never swapped a camshaft while needing to keep the head and head gasket in tact in a 22.  I guess I will find out if it's possible with my limited experience. 

Thanks,

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #800 on: Apr 22, 2017, 02:55:23 AM »
As I stated before, it took me 10 days before I had enough and pulled mine.
Sounds like you will be close to the same result, Rofl

:)bestgen4runner,

Although I consider myself at least an average "auto mechanic", my experience with Toyota engines most likely wouldn't make a pimple on your butt.  So I respect your experience and opinions on them.

As much as totally respect engbldr, Tod and Ted and what they have contributed to the early Toyota owner's community, and not wanting to promote any bad press about one of their custom designed parts, I AM going to figure out what I'm experiencing and make this rebuilt engine project come out like I imagined it would.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Apr 22, 2017, 06:55:53 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #801 on: Apr 22, 2017, 03:23:35 AM »
As I stated before, it took me 10 days before I had enough and pulled mine.
Sounds like you will be close to the same result, Rofl

You said "10k miles", not 10 days.... unless you drove 1,000 miles a day for 10 days? :screwy: .......but I get where you ended up.

There's no way I'm driving 10,000 miles with this engine running like it is!  :shake: ... and probably not even 1,000 miles!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #802 on: Apr 22, 2017, 04:21:48 AM »
Your fuel pressure regulator could certainly be sticking slightly open with crusty stuff in it, not keeping enough pressure in the rail. I had to replace one in my buddy's '85 once.  It failed to the point of barely running at all.  I don't thing the thing would do any more than if I remember correctly.

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #803 on: Apr 22, 2017, 09:45:51 AM »
Yes, I thought the same thing and did not immediately consider that part as causing a possible lean mixture condition.  After doing more research, I read the attached page from the Toyota EFI and Engine Controls Systems book that I bought on :)bestgen4runner's suggestion.

Since the gas sat for almost 4 years, and did have some crusty looking stuff on the fuel pump I replaced, so is it possible that a 31 year old fuel pressure regulator could be restricting the fuel flow?

I'm trying to look at every possible cause or effect, known or unknown, and it seems the more I look for answers the more questions I get.

There is, no doubt, an incredible amount of experience and knowledge here, so would you go with the anecdotal and possibly correct experiences of us DIYers, or would you consider the training manual for Toyota mechanics?

I always do my best to keep an open mind, especially about things I'm on that are a continuing learning curve.

Gnarls.

Hey Gnarly, can we get some more info on this book, where did you buy it? I might be interested in getting a copy if it goes into more detail than the FSM.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #804 on: Apr 22, 2017, 09:50:41 AM »
It's easy to get to. Try it.

Geezzzz... that thing was a BEAR to get to and get the hoses attached!!!!  My engine bay may be smaller than average?


Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #805 on: Apr 22, 2017, 10:05:42 AM »
Hey Gnarly, can we get some more info on this book, where did you buy it? I might be interested in getting a copy if it goes into more detail than the FSM.

I bought the last one here:

https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Control-Systems-Technicians-Handbook/dp/B000M5BQEC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492880656&sr=8-1&keywords=Toyota+EFI+and+Engine+Controls+Systems

But you might do some research and find a source.

Gnarls.


1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

toyodaaddict

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #806 on: Apr 22, 2017, 10:30:24 AM »
I bought the last one here:

https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Control-Systems-Technicians-Handbook/dp/B000M5BQEC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492880656&sr=8-1&keywords=Toyota+EFI+and+Engine+Controls+Systems

But you might do some research and find a source.

Gnarls.




Thanks, I'm on it.
 Good luck getting these issues sorted. After my rebuild I have a slight idle fluctuation that I'm trying to sort out. I can imagine how frustrating it must be to work so hard to get it all right and run into problems like your dealing with  :crossed:.
80 shortbed-22re,w56,Marlin 23 spline dual cases,HighAngle drivelines,RUF/63"chevy's,35''mtr's,85 front axle,30 spline Longfields, Allpro highsteer.87 rear axle,5.29 gears,rear spool,BudBuilt cm, marlin HD clutch,ramsey 8000 winch. 
     Also 84 toy DD 22R 4.88s,33'' toyo mt'z, marlin clutch,4inch lift/63's, HA drivelines.

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #807 on: Apr 22, 2017, 11:42:43 AM »
Hey Gnarly, can we get some more info on this book, where did you buy it? I might be interested in getting a copy if it goes into more detail than the FSM.

The book I bought is not as robust as I thought it would be. It has specific information and descriptions on the 22RE EFI components that the FSM does not have.  For me, I think its worth the $15.00+.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #808 on: Apr 22, 2017, 12:03:13 PM »
Hey Snowtoy,

Yes, I considered that, and have not yet tested the AFM.  However, before I toasted the engine, the AFM was performing fine.  Nothing should have changed with it, although anything is possible.  Unfortunately, I did not keep the old spark plugs... dumb move... I could have had them to compare with... now I will take photos and document in my library of Tweaker-Tuner data!

Gnarls.
The adjustment isn't due to an issue with the AFM, it is to allow more fuel to be added to the baseline mixture.  The stock programming is from "X" intake volume at idle through wide-open throttle, if the 261 cam allows "X+" air volume at idle, causing a lean condition as the one mechanic you spoke with theorized and you think you are seeing, it would mean that the ecm's stock programming parameters cannot compensate for the additional air volume the 261cam is allowing in.  By manually adjusting the AFM baseline for the additional volume of air, the ecm stock programming should be able to accurately monitor the A/F mixture from there.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #809 on: Apr 22, 2017, 12:45:40 PM »
The adjustment isn't due to an issue with the AFM, it is to allow more fuel to be added to the baseline mixture.  The stock programming is from "X" intake volume at idle through wide-open throttle, if the 261 cam allows "X+" air volume at idle, causing a lean condition as the one mechanic you spoke with theorized and you think you are seeing, it would mean that the ecm's stock programming parameters cannot compensate for the additional air volume the 261cam is allowing in.  By manually adjusting the AFM baseline for the additional volume of air, the ecm stock programming should be able to accurately monitor the A/F mixture from there.

Hmmm.. very interesting.  I will definitely check this out. Thank you for sharing that!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~26,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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